Likwid Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 80 year old...on her way to the car....after church.Thank goodness you can't bring a gun into religious establishments, it's much safer to leave them in the car. Not to say this woman would always be packing, but just goes to show you, walking to and from the car is where most crimes happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Yeah. That's sucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 80 year old...on her way to the car....after church.Thank goodness you can't bring a gun into religious establishments, it's much safer to leave them in the car. Not to say this woman would always be packing, but just goes to show you, walking to and from the car is where most crimes happen.That really sucks.You can take a gun into a religious establishment, you just need the pastor's permission. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 That really sucks.You can take a gun into a religious establishment, you just need the pastor's permission. Check it out.Here's the thing, YES you can if "you have permission", the ORC doesn't state who gives the permission or what you need. YES I agree if the pastor/rabbi/leader says "Yes, you may carry if you have your CCW" but would I ask for a letter saying that? YES. We're talking about a felony here, it's too easy for a visiting officiant to change rules because he feels like it (it's happened to me) so I'd be sure I had significant proof.Also, it doesn't say in ORC who gives permission, lots of churches and synagogues are run by a governing body... do you need the board to say yes, or just the senior leader? What if the secretary says sure they have a policy that it's fine...Anyway, I'm in the market for a synagogue, you better believe one of my first questions is "What is the temple's policy on CCWs?" Along with a few other questions my wife and I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I really don't think carrying a gun would have saved this woman. If somebody is willing to kill you for your wallet, they're going to kill you, and take it after you're dead.You can't retaliate or return fire if the assailant walks up to you and his first move is to put a bullet in your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Here's the thing, YES you can if "you have permission", the ORC doesn't state who gives the permission or what you need. YES I agree if the pastor/rabbi/leader says "Yes, you may carry if you have your CCW" but would I ask for a letter saying that? YES. We're talking about a felony here, it's too easy for a visiting officiant to change rules because he feels like it (it's happened to me) so I'd be sure I had significant proof.Also, it doesn't say in ORC who gives permission, lots of churches and synagogues are run by a governing body... do you need the board to say yes, or just the senior leader? What if the secretary says sure they have a policy that it's fine...Anyway, I'm in the market for a synagogue, you better believe one of my first questions is "What is the temple's policy on CCWs?" Along with a few other questions my wife and I have.I understand what your saying. It doesn't say who gives the authority. You just need to be sure everything is in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I really don't think carrying a gun would have saved this woman. If somebody is willing to kill you for your wallet, they're going to kill you, and take it after you're dead.You can't retaliate or return fire if the assailant walks up to you and his first move is to put a bullet in your head.You are absolutely right, BUT let's play "what ifs".What If the BG knew the woman wouldn't be armed because churches are CPZs?What if the BG knew noone else around the woman would be armed?What if the BG DIDN'T just walk up and shoot her?There's a lot of unanswered questions, but I agree, if someone wants you dead, you're probably dead, but you don't have to be a victim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 What about the old lady in-town for the horse races that was almost mugged. She shot and killed the intruder. If 95% of the population carried, muggings and robberies and the such would drop significantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 What about the old lady in-town for the horse races that was almost mugged. She shot and killed the intruder. If 95% of the population carried, muggings and robberies and the such would drop significantly.No way! If everyone carried there'd be shoot-outs over minor arguments! There'd be BLOOD IN THE STREETS!...</sarcasm>Until people start realizing what you say they won't cause a change. People associate firearms with criminals... not good honest people that seek to simply defend themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I think you have probably seen this Likwid, and I'm sure some others too, but for those that haven't.Who is responsible for my safety? The supreme court has ruled police are not actually obligated to protect me. Besides, there is almost no chance they will be there to protect me if I need it. If firemen put out fires then why do people have fire extinguishers in their homes? Because the firemen can't respond to an emergency in 3 seconds and neither can the police, but a fire extinguisher in the home, or a gun in the pocket can do so.So who is responsible for my safety? I AMPrivate citizens defend themselves with guns an estimated 2.5 million times per year in the US. 2.4 million of these incidents go unreported to the authorities mostly because a gun ended the incident with no actual crime taking place. Of reported crimes stopped with a gun 83.5% of the time the attacker used force of some kind first. 92% of the time the attack was ended by just brandishing a firearm. Firearms are used 60 times more often to protect lives than to take lives. Robbery victims are 4 times more likely to be injured if they do not resist at all than if they resist with a gun. Robbery victims are 7 times more likely to be injured if they resist in any way other than a gun than if they resist with a gun. 77% of all violent crimes take places in public places.I don't carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep from being killed.I don't carry a gun to scare people. I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.I don't carry a gun because I'm evil. I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.I don't carry a gun because I'm angry. I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because, unarmed and facing an armed thug, I am inadequate.I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Just asking a question, if you were in that parking lot and you witnessed the lady being shot, would you draw your weapon? Assuming you were NOT being shot at, could you attempt to shoot the car tire/radiator if the suspect tried to flee? Or is that Hollywood stuff.If the suspect was fleeing in the car and driving right at you in the parking lot, I think that would be enough to be "in fear of my life", but might be able to get out of the path of the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) Just asking a question, if you were in that parking lot and you witnessed the lady being shot, would you draw your weapon? Assuming you were NOT being shot at, could you attempt to shoot the car tire/radiator if the suspect tried to flee? Or is that Hollywood stuff.If the suspect was fleeing in the car and driving right at you in the parking lot, I think that would be enough to be "in fear of my life", but might be able to get out of the path of the car.The what-ifs are very dangerous. In order to defend another person you must be sure they are not the aggressor and did not escalate the issue. Yes, it's probably clear the woman did not attack the man, but you never know, she could have stabbed him when he walked up to her and then he was defending himself...Should I have been in the same situation, I might have asked the woman if I could help her to her car, or walked behind her. If I saw the BG shoot her and then run into a car I would certainly not pursue. If I was in the parking lot, the man shot her and I was unable to call 911 or get to a safe location then there's a different story, but there's just TOO many variables to play what-ifs, especially when it comes to self defense questions.Edit: IANAL Edited January 25, 2010 by Likwid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 (edited) Just asking a question, if you were in that parking lot and you witnessed the lady being shot, would you draw your weapon? Assuming you were NOT being shot at, could you attempt to shoot the car tire/radiator if the suspect tried to flee? Or is that Hollywood stuff.If the suspect was fleeing in the car and driving right at you in the parking lot, I think that would be enough to be "in fear of my life", but might be able to get out of the path of the car.If you were to draw on the BG, you had better be 150% sure you know he is the BG. If the old women, in this case, happened to be the aggressor, and you shot the wrong guy, you are looking at prison time. Now if he begins to flee, you CANNOT continue to use deadly force because the threat of danger has left. If he was obviously driving towards you to hurt/kill you, situation dicates, but you would probably be okay.Having a ccw brings with it a lot of responsibility and you had better know the law and it's restrictions.IANAL or LEO Edited January 25, 2010 by chevysoldier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I know, too many "what-ifs", ......I am aware that you can not shoot the BG just because a crime was commited and it was not self defense. Other than getting a plate number and calling 911, what else CAN you do? Attempt to help the lady after she was shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Also Scott, I didn't answer that way to be a dick, but web forums are a hot bed of "can be used in court" stuff and I don't like to say anything that could be used in a "He was trying to be a hero, look at all he has said about what HE'D do!"BUT in all honestly, you can play what-if games all day in your head (and you will) but very few of us can plan and prepare for all situations, and actually execute on that planning. The best we can do is instill the tenets of self defense in our mind and react with the necessary requirements to ensure the safety of ourselves and our surroundings....You know the dealIANAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I know, too many "what-ifs", ......I am aware that you can not shoot the BG just because a crime was commited and it was not self defense. Other than getting a plate number and calling 911, what else CAN you do? Attempt to help the lady after she was shot.Once you're sure YOU are safe, yes. 911 and see what you can do to help the woman. Get plate numbers, suspect description, vehicle description and your accounts of what happened. But all that comes secondary to you being safe.I have a hard time with all this, because in all likelihood the woman will be dead, and heaven knows if the BG is just waiting and watching in the shadows to run you over with his car... Other than that? Prayer for her and her family. And use it as an example of instances where the law can be hurting people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Yeah. I better not draw cause we have had such an influx of crazy bluehairs lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I understand Likwid. I dont know the laws, just throwing it out there what CAN be done, legally as a bystander or witness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I know, too many "what-ifs", ......I am aware that you can not shoot the BG just because a crime was commited and it was not self defense. Other than getting a plate number and calling 911, what else CAN you do? Attempt to help the lady after she was shot.That's pretty much it. Much every scenario will be different. You could have that exact same situation 100 times and you will have 101 different outcomes.Also Scott, I didn't answer that way to be a dick, but web forums are a hot bed of "can be used in court" stuff and I don't like to say anything that could be used in a "He was trying to be a hero, look at all he has said about what HE'D do!"BUT in all honestly, you can play what-if games all day in your head (and you will) but very few of us can plan and prepare for all situations, and actually execute on that planning. The best we can do is instill the tenets of self defense in our mind and react with the necessary requirements to ensure the safety of ourselves and our surroundings....You know the dealIANALAnd to help inform the public that guns are not the problem. Education and awareness are key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Oh, and I had to Google "IANAL" = "I am not a Lawyer", so I learned something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Oh, and I had to Google "IANAL" = "I am not a Lawyer", so I learned somethinglolI think we should put IANALBIAAAEI am not a lawyer but I am an acronym expert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Or add BISAAHIE = But I Stayed At A Holiday Inn Express Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Oh, and I had to Google "IANAL" = "I am not a Lawyer", so I learned somethingYeah, like Likwid said, shit on the net, stays on the net. Don't want it to come back and someones uses that against you. Well he said....lolI think we should put IANALBIAAAEI am not a lawyer but I am an acronym expertI like IANALOLEOOr add BISAAHIE = But I Stayed At A Holiday Inn Express Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Ok so we will now all add IANALOLEOBIAAAEAISAAHIE to all our posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I<3ANALSI'll assume when you PM'd me with the above it meant:I'm greater than 3 attorneys, need anymore legalese summarized? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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