Haitians VS Mexicans

[Likwid]

That's what's so incredible to me personally, that suddenly everyone can be rallying around the charity of Yele Haiti when it's been all but PROVEN that Wyclef's using the charity as his personal slush fund.

Unfortunately the charity I am against is much larger and would generate plenty of thread derail so I'll hold off. But feel free to PM me.

BUT, yes, a ton of these "charities" only give a fraction of donations to the actual people that need it. Excuse me, if I want to donate $100 to Haiti I'll all the embassy, not some corrupt organization that takes $50-$90 for "operating costs" and then buy a mcdonalds sandwich for a Haitian and call it a day

[TwiztedRabbit]

Unfortunately the charity I am against is much larger and would generate plenty of thread derail so I'll hold off. But feel free to PM me.

BUT, yes, a ton of these "charities" only give a fraction of donations to the actual people that need it. Excuse me, if I want to donate $100 to Haiti I'll all the embassy, not some corrupt organization that takes $50-$90 for "operating costs" and then buy a mcdonalds sandwich for a Haitian and call it a day

i wouldnt mind hearing about this.... please go on.. or by all means start a new thread its for the win!

[Rod38um]

I saw an interview with a mexican team that was helping in Haiti. They had been in Mexico city in 1985 (I think) during a huge quake and they wanted to help. The guy said they were disapointed because in mexico, after the quake, the people all banded together, worked like crazy to rescue people, clean up the rubble, then rebuild. He said many had lost everything but they could still work and felt a duty to do so. He said in haiti, most people are just sitting there waiting on help from foreigners........ He was upset by it.

I personally think that you can give too much aid and create a culture of dependency. Haiti has been the recipient of aid from many countries and organizations for decades...... Maybe its time to stop.......

[TwiztedRabbit]

A++++++ to that good sir

[stargazer]

Plenty of kids here need homes. Plenty of people here go hungry. As for the original question, Mexico vs. Haiti, Mexico has a government in place, albeit not the greatest. Haiti had a piss poor government, and now has no government and no infrastructure. In very short order with no US presence, you would have Somalia, Part 2, which is a great breeding ground for extreme terrorist recruiting and behaviors. But, you could put a fence up around it and leave it for 10 years and see what you get.... There are people just as hard up in Mexico, millions of them, at least Mexicans work, not sure about a bunch of Haitians bitching because the food was air dropped and they had to go a ways to get it.

[InyaAzz]

I just heard on the radio this AM, that less than ONE PENNY of every dollar is going to the Haitian government. This was on the news at the top of the hour. I don't know how that figure was calculated as I caught the very end of it.

I'm sure that won't change anyone's mind about donating or helping out. Another reason will creep to the top to replace this one.

[redkow97]

i personally think we should fix our own damn problems first, its been ~4 years and new orleans is still a mess.

I feel more sympathy for the Haitians than I do for citizens of New Orleans for a couple of reasons:

1) knowing that they live below sea level, they're morons if they don't have flood insurance. Can you even buy insurance in Haiti? I doubt it...

2) forecasts warned for WEEKS prior to Katrina that they should get the fuck out of there, or risk being stranded or killed. I have yet to hear about any earthquake forecasts in Haiti.

that said - I agree that the United States should take care of domestic problems before trying to be international heroes.

There are some things you simply can't fix, and shouldn't expect to.

As it pertains to Mexico, I don't think we owe them anything. If you're a legal immigrant (hell, even if you're illegal, but paying taxes), then I fail to see the problem.

but illegals perpetuate a negative stereotype upon themselves. Their intentions are trumped by their actions. The US cannot and should not try to save everyone, including its own citizens.

just look at the abuse of welfare, the bank bailouts, etc. EVERYONE needs to accept the reality that some people are going to 'fail' in some capacity, and we can't bankrupt ourselves chasing an impossible goal. Bad things happen to good people. that is part of life.

[DangBruhY]

So much to say... So much has already been said...

[that dude]

lets fix our own problems. over 150000 homeless american veterans. over 1.5 million homeless children. fuck haiti.

[John]

everyone who is saying 'fix our own problems first', do you feel that way about spending billions of dollars in iraq too?

[fusion]

everyone who is saying 'fix our own problems first', do you feel that way about spending billions of dollars in iraq too?

Since day one.

[DangBruhY]

everyone who is saying 'fix our own problems first', do you feel that way about spending billions of dollars in iraq too?

You cannot compare a humanitarian mission to a war mission.

[Disclaimer]

Since day one.

+1

You cannot compare a humanitarian mission to a war mission.

Why not? They both amount to tax dollars being spent. You can compare ANYTHING if they have dollar amounts attached to them. Dollars are a very tangible concrete item to compare and contrast against.

The only debate is what the value of what you get in return for those dollars is worth? You know what it costs, that's tangible, but what you're 'buying' is intangible for the most part. Intangibles are MUCH more difficult to place a value on.

Edited January 29, 2010 by JRMMiii

[fusion]

You cannot compare a humanitarian mission to a war mission.

Iraq is a 'humanitarian' mission, we were/are basically saving them from an evil dictator. They posed no threat and weren't related to 9/11 in anyway.

[DangBruhY]

Iraq is a 'humanitarian' mission, we were/are basically saving them from an evil dictator. They posed no threat and weren't related to 9/11 in anyway.

They weren't?

[fusion]

They weren't?

No Iraq wasn't.

[Disclaimer]

Almost a decade later, and people are STILL misinformed.

[InyaAzz]

I would call Iraq an invasion...there are plenty dictators in the world doing evil things to their people..but we aren't 'saving' them.

However..Iraq was NO threat to us. Actually, Iraq was an indirect ally. The enemy of my enemy is my friend type of thing. Iraq was the only country/regime able to keep Iran in check. The US removed the BEST THING we had going in that region to counter Iran.

[InyaAzz]

"According to the CRS report on Government http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl34299.pdf the US Gave Haiti about 1.6 billion in the `90s. in a country of 6' date='000,000 people, that`s $266,000 per person, or $26,600 per year for every man, women and child for 10 years. The average family size is 7, so that would be enough for each family to have recieved $186,200 per year. Why are they so poor? (and that`s just from the US)"

Let's keep sending money to their government since it is so beneficial to the people of Haiti. Medical needs? Sure, send in the troops, patch people up and march to the capitol and demand payment for services rendered. Someone has a fist full of American dollars. It isn't the people, so we need to collect it from their government.[/quote']

Hopefully the aid organizations and the government have learned that lesson. If what I heard on the radio is indeed true, that looks to be the case.

[DangBruhY]

Almost a decade later, and people are STILL misinformed.

Kinda like the situation in New Orleans?

[Ryan_c_F]

An old friend of mine who happens to be Mexican brought this up in a conversation the other night. I thought it was a rather interesting view point.

"I'm sick of hearing about Haiti. You want to bring in people from other countries and then adopt their kids, but you build a fence to keep mexicans out. Who wants to come to the US? Mexico is just as bad and in need of help. It may not be from a natural disaster, but Mexico still needs help. We wanted to be apart of the US but we are being driven out. Where's the help?"

So I pose the question, why should the US give so much aid to Haiti and adopt their children, but not Mexico? Mexico is our neighbor after all. Shouldn't we help our neighbors and our own before helping others? I think of it as the speech we've all heard before every flight. If the oxygen masks deploy, put your's on first, then help your neighbor, then help any others who might need help.

Perhaps, if the culture in Mexico didn't involve coming here DESPITE our attempts to remove them, it wouldn't be such a chore to get aid from the North.

We do help Mexico.

Their problem is threefold:

A) Drug wars. Mexico is dangerous right now for anyone, but especially "rich estadounidenses." Until the violence stops it's going to be tough to convince anyone to go into improving Mexico from the ground up.

B) Mexico doesn't have the sympathy vote right now. 200,000 people haven't just died overnight. Hence, people don't feel obliged to send money by celebrities on TV. And, along those lines...

C) the illegals ruin the Mexican image for everyone. Having done business with companies in Mexico, I know that there are a lot, and I do mean a LOT, of very talented and successful businessmen on the ground to the South, especially in the agrarian sector. There is work to be had.

The problem (if you can call it that) is that Mexico doesn't have the kind of socialist reforms that we do, hence they're not able to leech off the government half so well as the poor/lazy folks statesside can. Nor can they depend on a minimum wage to support a lifestyle. Hence they come here to work for Wal Mart and Home Depot.

Further problems include a devalued currency (nearly 50% as of the beginning of last year), NAFTA trade tariff elimination pricing certain crops and goods out of the reach of domestic production profitability... it's just that none of these problems add up to the "crisis" level that would motivate other countries to help.

[Ryan_c_F]

I would call Iraq an invasion...there are plenty dictators in the world doing evil things to their people..but we aren't 'saving' them.

However..Iraq was NO threat to us. Actually, Iraq was an indirect ally. The enemy of my enemy is my friend type of thing. Iraq was the only country/regime able to keep Iran in check. The US removed the BEST THING we had going in that region to counter Iran.

You're forgetting Israel.

Israel is keeping the entire region in check.

If Iran gets froggy and says, "hey, we're starting nuclear testing next week, aaaaaand we're going to be launching missiles on Monday," best believe that Israel will have planes in the air by Friday and be back home before shabbos.

[Ryan_c_F]

Also - related topic:

Some ESPN commentator got fired for posting this blog entry.

It's a great read.

http://www.flipcollective.com/2010/01/26/if-you-rebuild-it-they-will-come-by-paul-shirley/comment-page-33/#comment-2738

I do not know if what I’m about to write makes me a monster. I do know that it makes me a part of a miniscule minority, if Internet trends and news stories of the past weeks are any guide.

“It”, is this:

I haven’t donated a cent to the Haitian relief effort. And I probably will not.

I haven’t donated to the Haitian relief effort for the same reason that I don’t give money to homeless men on the street. Based on past experiences, I don’t think the guy with the sign that reads “Need You’re Help” is going to do anything constructive with the dollar I might give him. If I use history as my guide, I don’t think the people of Haiti will do much with my money either.

In this belief I am, evidently, alone. It seems that everyone has jumped on the “Save Haiti” bandwagon. To question the impulse to donate, then, will probably be viewed as analogous with rooting for Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, or the Spice Girls.

My wariness has much to do with the fact that the sympathy deployed to Haiti has been done so unconditionally. Very few have said, written, or even intimated the slightest admonishment of Haiti, the country, for putting itself into a position where so many would be killed by an earthquake.

I can’t help but wonder why questions have not been raised in the face of this outpouring of support. Questions like this one:

Shouldn’t much of the responsibility for the disaster lie with the victims of that disaster?

Read on; it's very well-written.

[InyaAzz]

You're forgetting Israel.

Israel is keeping the entire region in check.

If Iran gets froggy and says, "hey, we're starting nuclear testing next week, aaaaaand we're going to be launching missiles on Monday," best believe that Israel will have planes in the air by Friday and be back home before shabbos.

That scenario is after shit is already gone past the point of no return. Iraq (Sadaam)was keeping Iran VERY busy. AQ in Iraq did not exist under Sadaam. It's my opinion that Iran's nuclear ambition might not be as far ahead as it is now, if Sadaam was still there. IMHO.

I'm not sure what you mean by Israel keeping the region in check. They have a right to defend themselves, but if they launch a preemptive strike on Iran, they had better be prepared to be in more of a shit storm than they already are.the least of all reasons being that Iran has a vastly superior military than Iraq ever did. Another reason being that Israel is not in the best physical location in the world, to be able to withstand millions of Muslims in the Middle East not only calling for their destruction, but trying to bring it about. And now, the US is brought into it because of our 'commitment' to defend Israel.

It's a fucking mess.

[fusion]

You're forgetting Israel.

Israel is keeping the entire region in check.

If Iran gets froggy and says, "hey, we're starting nuclear testing next week, aaaaaand we're going to be launching missiles on Monday," best believe that Israel will have planes in the air by Friday and be back home before shabbos.

Without US support in that region Israel would be shitting their pants.