fusion Posted January 29, 2010 Report Share Posted January 29, 2010 Let me know when, we can go get some food and beer after That would be awesome. I prefer shooting with others most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2010 That would be awesome. I prefer shooting with others most of the time.Hell yah, it's a lot of fun comparing shots and especially being able to go back later and look at the same shot you took at one settings someone else took at another setting and see the difference subtle changes make!Also, I'll take any excuse to hang out and shoot the shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 29, 2010 Report Share Posted January 29, 2010 As for the private events, like I said, if we have an official photographer, do you honestly feel it's fair to take money away from him/them? Guy travels to a track day and is figuring on making and selling pics to support what he does and his expenses. Meanwhile, you show up, take a bunch of pics and sell to the same crowd? That's pretty low as it isn't fair to undercut someone...Actually if I'm a photographer that has special access that the others don't get I could care less. If I can't out sell the guys who don't get to shoot from the best spots and only gets to shoot from where everyone else does I may want to take a second look at how I'm shooting, pricing or marketing myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2010 Actually if I'm a photographer that has special access that the others don't get I could care less. If I can't out sell the guys who don't get to shoot from the best spots and only gets to shoot from where everyone else does I may want to take a second look at how I'm shooting, pricing or marketing myself.EXXXXACTLY.... first rule of business folks, your product is only worth as much as people are willing to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Here's the thing, if Person X sells images for $1 and Person Y sells them for $10.... if folks are buying the pictures at $1 guess what? The other pictures aren't WORTH $10.I've heard plenty of complaints from folks that the "official track shots" weren't what they expected and were too expensive. All in all, it's about who the organizer is pushing, and how much people are willing to pay.But the last I've seen, I've never heard someone raving "I use STT/MO/FT because they have an awesome photographer!"... maybe they're all saying that other places.$10 is a fair price. If the photographer sucks, people need to tell us so we can get different ones. We tried a few different guys last year and only 1-2 were worth it in my opinion.That being said, the idea is still pretty simple. Person X is the official guy and person Y comes in and under suts him w/o permission. That's BS business and BS tactics. It will also get you ejected at my events...I don't mind if you are interested and want to do an event. Let's plan for it. Let's make a time when you can come to one of our events and get you started. But, like the other guys, you will be official at whatever event and I will not allow another person to come and take pics to sell to people you are targeting to sell to. Even if it is for only $1...It's the same idea at any sporting event. There are guys there taking pics for a living. Taking pics of your buddies and giving them to those guys? Nothing wrong at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Actually if I'm a photographer that has special access that the others don't get I could care less. If I can't out sell the guys who don't get to shoot from the best spots and only gets to shoot from where everyone else does I may want to take a second look at how I'm shooting, pricing or marketing myself.Ok, here's the deal and I am done with this...We have 100 plus people. I choose or Monte chooses based on pics we have seen from the guys or if we know their work. It's set up that we have ONE official photographer. Typically, it's something like $30-$40 for a CD filled with images. The guy will be out in the hot sun shooting thousands of pics. Working all day. Time is worth money and the level of quality is purely opinion at times. I've bought pics from kids hanging off a fence out of turn one at Mid-Ohio that were better than the AMA official photographer at the event... If we allow a guy to come in and free lance and basically out sell the other guy, that's bullshit. Plus, we haven't found a guy we can get for every event all the time. Some tracks, we do and they are usually the sole guy. They are typically making a living at this and we don't feel it is needed to have multiple photographers there. It's the same at the track for the races. They have APPROVED and official photographers. Usually no more than 3-4 that will be selling stuff to racers. At the Professional level, there are tons of guys shooting pics. Some teams hire guys, some magazines have guys, some sell to racers, some are there for the track and related. There's tons... Bottom line is simple. Wanna be a photographer at a track? You have to ask. If you want to shoot basic pics and even from pretty cool spots and share with the buddies you came with? Go for it. But, if you go with the idea that you're going to make money and sell to others all the while w/o asking permission? That's pretty stupid to begin with. Wouldn't you want everyone at the track during rider's meeting to know who the guy taking pics is? Otherwise, you're walking around talking to people and not taking pics...Like I said, Likwid wants to be a photographer? Get with me or Monte and let's work on getting you at some events... I am willing to share the events to a lot of guys. Some tracks, we have a guy solely for that venue and facility... As they say, All ya gotta do is ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 That's funny. I'm the official photographer at a local MMA venue and I could care less if someone from the seating section is shooting photos and trying to sell them to the fighters. no matter the price. If I have the goal to sell prints to the fighters and I have my cage side special access, but someone from the "common" area is able to undercut me and take sales then the problem is me not the guy selling for less from s less than ideal position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 $10 is a fair price. If the photographer sucks, people need to tell us so we can get different ones. We tried a few different guys last year and only 1-2 were worth it in my opinion.That being said, the idea is still pretty simple. Person X is the official guy and person Y comes in and under suts him w/o permission. That's BS business and BS tactics. It will also get you ejected at my events...I don't mind if you are interested and want to do an event. Let's plan for it. Let's make a time when you can come to one of our events and get you started. But, like the other guys, you will be official at whatever event and I will not allow another person to come and take pics to sell to people you are targeting to sell to. Even if it is for only $1...It's the same idea at any sporting event. There are guys there taking pics for a living. Taking pics of your buddies and giving them to those guys? Nothing wrong at all.That's the theory behind monopolies bud, "Person X can charge whatever he wants because he's the only one allowed to sell them"... there's a reason monopolistic quality goes down... you don't have any competition It doesn't matter if you're doing it for a living or doing it as a hobby. I'm happy to trade photos for lunch for friends, and I have... if that means some shmuck with $30,000 worth of equipment goes hungry that's his problem, not mine.There's an elasticity of demand with something like pictures (and everything else), as the price increases the more likely a consumer is to simply "go without". In the eyes of a rider, $200 for a track day fulfills one need, photography of the event fulfills another need. Plenty of folks I've talked to said, "I paid $150 for a track day, I'm not paying some moron $150 for a cd of 15 shitty images, I don't give a shit" ... Or they'll do what JRM did and just use the watermarked low-res image.Hence why I posted this here and not on Craigslist, I'm looking to help friends out. Like I said before, a halfway decent photographer can get the same images from a casual ride with friends and a staged photo spot... exactly what we did on the Ashtabula ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 I haven't done a shoot at a track in many years. And it was all 35mm back then. I've thought about doing some digital, but it's quite different. I need more practice. Perhaps I'll get out at some places this year, for fun.What I really need to do, is get a 35mm scanner, and get some of my old work out where people can see it.Yeah, I've been told I can't take photos some places. It sux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 If you want to shoot basic pics and even from pretty cool spots and share with the buddies you came with? Go for it. What do you consider "basic pics"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) I haven't done a shoot at a track in many years. And it was all 35mm back then. I've thought about doing some digital, but it's quite different. I need more practice. Perhaps I'll get out at some places this year, for fun.What I really need to do, is get a 35mm scanner, and get some of my old work out where people can see it.Yeah, I've been told I can't take photos some places. It sux.We should plan a day to go, we'll team up, all of us with cameras.I'm half tempted to get a really big zoom lens and take pictures from outside a track and give them away for free to riders lol. Can't eject someone from outside the premisesJust look for me: Edited January 30, 2010 by Likwid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 What do you consider "basic pics"?Anything you're not charging for I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Anything you're not charging for I think...That's cool. I consider these pretty basic photos from that last trackday I was at: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 I'm half tempted to get a really big zoom lens and take pictures from outside a track and give them away for free to riders lol. Can't eject someone from outside the premisesHa, long lenses and fast shutter speeds blur easily. Hard to handle.Get a pistol grip. Better yet, make a camera "gunstock" with two grips...I no longer have one. I wish I did. I'll put that on the list of things to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) That's cool. I consider these pretty basic photos from that last trackday I was at:Not cool dude, you're putting people out of work...like this guy, exclusive official photographer ... 1024x768 image = $7.50 Edited January 30, 2010 by Likwid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 And to Brian, didn't mean to turn this into a thread against you, you just so happen to be the first track organizer that posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Whether you're proving a point or not, Likwid, you're pissing in the cheerios of one of the people that would help you get into this business.Arguing about monopolies and fair practices is just a waste of hot air when Brian tells you to get stuffed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Whether you're proving a point or not, Likwid, you're pissing in the cheerios of one of the people that would help you get into this business.Arguing about monopolies and fair practices is just a waste of hot air when Brian tells you to get stuffed. I'm not looking to get into the photography business lol, I'm offering help to ORDN riders that want it... photography, much like all art forms is about doing something you love, if you're getting into it for the money you need some lessons in business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonzie Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 It's the end result. If someone likes the picture, there you go. You can walk around all day looking at pictures and saying "That's not art", "that's shitty comp", "wow this guy sucks".... but guess what, that doesn't mean shit if 1 person says "Oh, I like this", to that person it's good.That's bull.A shitty picture is a shitty picture.Art is subjective, but not all photography is art. There is still a right or wrong way shoot a lot of subjects.So you mean those pretentious idiots that take a shit on stage while naked, then light it on fire & call it performance "art" aren't really "arteests".... Or are they??? I'm so confused Heck, I would even throw a few dollars your way if they came out good.. ID just hate to pay someone before I knew what I was getting!Annnnd heeeeere we go again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 That's the theory behind monopolies bud, "Person X can charge whatever he wants because he's the only one allowed to sell them"... there's a reason monopolistic quality goes down... you don't have any competition It doesn't matter if you're doing it for a living or doing it as a hobby. I'm happy to trade photos for lunch for friends, and I have... if that means some shmuck with $30,000 worth of equipment goes hungry that's his problem, not mine.There's an elasticity of demand with something like pictures (and everything else), as the price increases the more likely a consumer is to simply "go without". In the eyes of a rider, $200 for a track day fulfills one need, photography of the event fulfills another need. Plenty of folks I've talked to said, "I paid $150 for a track day, I'm not paying some moron $150 for a cd of 15 shitty images, I don't give a shit" ... Or they'll do what JRM did and just use the watermarked low-res image.Hence why I posted this here and not on Craigslist, I'm looking to help friends out. Like I said before, a halfway decent photographer can get the same images from a casual ride with friends and a staged photo spot... exactly what we did on the Ashtabula ride.It's a monopoly when we look at their portfolio and ask what they charge and make sure it ISN'T a rip off for customers?It's a monopoly if you go to a professional football, baseball, basketball event and they stipulate camera lens sizes that are allowed and what isn't?It's a monopoly that you decide as to whom you want to pay to shoot your wedding?You taking pics of your buddies is different. Like I said and listed below, there are PLENTY of spots you can get good pics from. Plenty. If they are your friends and you take pics of just them and even if you charge them, I don't give a shit. But, you take pics of everyone and start selling them? Guess who's not going to be allowed to take pics at any of our events again?Pictures are fine. There are just rules. Instead of the bickering and drawing in guys that make it worse, you could be contacting me to work out how to get involved and become a photographer with us. Choices are made. We have people that do this for a living. We feel there is only a need for one professional photographer. The pics at Putnam are an example of what can be had all the while being in areas allowed by Joe Public. Now, try convincing the track and the track day org that you want to shoot at the Bus Stop or Dead Bear...If we have a guy charging $150 for a CD, he isn't going to be doing any events I am associated with. Again, $30-$40 for a bunch of images is pretty standard. $10 for an 8x10 is pretty fair. Think it is bad for motorcycle guys? Ask the same photography company what they get at car races and car track days... You'll still be picking your jaw up off the floor...Basic pics are essentially from spots where the general public are allowed. You show up with a huge lens (Over 6") and are taking pics of every rider as we observe you and you're out of our events - and any other track day event that ANY track day org has an official photographer at. Buddies aren't the whole group. And then the next group, and the next...It's simple as this: You're a contractor that got offered a job on a site. You then show up and there's now 3 other contractors that showed up out of nowhere and are doing the same job as you. Maybe charging less, maybe more. Whatever the cost, the the amount of work has now been divided by 4 instead of 1. How's that fair? Sorry I said I was done and wasn't, but you guys are getting WAY wrong info and certainly have a feeling that you should be granted freedom to do whatever you want wherever you wish. That ain't gonna happen and I can tell you, if you try it at Mid-Ohio and are caught going into areas for shots that you are not allowed, you're going to be booted or chewed out.Not to mention if they have a photographer they allowed in to do work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted January 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 Sorry man but STT isn't running anything within the area I'm willing to travel to :-\Rusty 848, I'll circle back with you as we get a little closer to those dates. PM me with your email and I'll send a note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted January 30, 2010 Report Share Posted January 30, 2010 You taking pics of your buddies is different. Like I said and listed below, there are PLENTY of spots you can get good pics from. Plenty. If they are your friends and you take pics of just them and even if you charge them, I don't give a shit. But, you take pics of everyone and start selling them? Guess who's not going to be allowed to take pics at any of our events again?This is what he was pretty much offering to his buddies (fellow OR members)Pictures are fine. There are just rules. Instead of the bickering and drawing in guys that make it worse, you could be contacting me to work out how to get involved and become a photographer with us. No one started to bicker until Flounder stated something that had no foundation in reality.Choices are made. We have people that do this for a living. We feel there is only a need for one professional photographer. The pics at Putnam are an example of what can be had all the while being in areas allowed by Joe Public. Now, try convincing the track and the track day org that you want to shoot at the Bus Stop or Dead Bear...I was allowed to shoot from any of those spots, but I didn't want to get stuck for any extended amount of time since I was also riding. Yes the track day org gave me permission and I almost took them up on it particularly at Bus Stop.Likwid basically offered to shoot for any of our fellow OR brothers and sisters. Didn't sound like to me he was ever even intending to muscle in your official photographer's business. If anyone blew this out bigger than intended it was you and Flounder. We were just responding to your statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likwid Posted February 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Bump for April 26th, I'll be shooting for the Orange day (monday) unless someone here needs me on Tuesday as well.I'll post my expected schedule in my first post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAMBUSA Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 I'll hire ya if/when I need some photos done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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