ZZZ Trade

[Bad324]

So basically what you're saying is "they're better on paper" this year than they were last year. Since their record is the same as last year this time, they haven't proven it where it matters - winning and losing games.

Talk is cheap. Until they actually win one, I'm not going to get excited.

90% of what I said is on court proven. The only on paper part is the schedule

Again I agree with you as I try not to get my hopes up because yes afterall it is Cleveland and something always happens but there is a fine line between pessimistic and cynicism and I'll argue til I'm blue in the face when it comes to a sports cynic out of pure fun.

[Todd#43]

90% of what I said is on court proven. The only on paper part is the schedule

Again I agree with you as I try not to get my hopes up because yes afterall it is Cleveland and something always happens but there is a fine line between pessimistic and cynicism and I'll argue til I'm blue in the face when it comes to a sports cynic out of pure fun.

Please explain how 90% of the improvement has been shown "on court".

You say they're better because of this player, or that player but they havent proven anything yet when you get down to what matters - wins versus losses.

And while we're at it, cynicism and pessimism are synonymous. (that means the two words mean the same thing). Get back to me after 21 more years of no major sports championships in NE Ohio and let me know how you're feeling. My guess is by then your youthful exuberance will have waned quite a bit.

[Bad324]

Please explain how 90% of the improvement has been shown "on court".

You say they're better because of this player, or that player but they havent proven anything yet when you get down to what matters - wins versus losses.

And while we're at it, cynicism and pessimism are synonymous. (that means the two words mean the same thing). Get back to me after 21 more years of no major sports championships in NE Ohio and let me know how you're feeling. My guess is by then your youthful exuberance will have waned quite a bit.

I'm only 25 and I'm right there with ya on the its Cleveland I won't count on a championship until a day or 2 after it actually happens

BUT

How are they better you ask? Well simple my friend lets start with the obvious, injuries. Only TWO players have played every game this year with that being LBJ and Parker. Two of our biggest 2nd threats (Mo, Delonte) went down in back to back games and yet they went on the current 13 game winning streak. Oh speaking of Delonte, he couldn't be counted on most of the year as nobody knew where his head was at and if he could play

Add in the maturation of JJ, the prescence of Shaq's big ass clogging the lane and Andy earning that contract he signed along with LeBron playing out of his mind and better than last year so overall the talent level has improved

The depth is absolutely sick this year and just got even better adding Jamison and hell even Telfair is a good choice as he has potential to be a better ball handler than Mo which frees up Mo off the ball to get his shooting in sync.

Why are they a better team with the same record? This years has by far been more difficult as up until this last stretch they played 70% of their games on the road as well as they have played every single playoff contender in both leagues at least once with a majority of them twice

Everything in bold happens ON THE COURT

Yes the two words are synonymous however they have different degrees, at least in my mind. I like to think I am very pessimistic when it comes to the sports teams I root for because I've been let down so often, however I don't think I am cynical about it like yourself. My "youthful exuberance" will always be there no matter what as an avid fan of the game. I wasn't blessed with enough skill to play past high school in any of my 3 sports so I am left with sticking to the likes of being a fan and coach

[jayjie15]

Everything in bold happens ON THE COURT

Yes the two words are synonymous however they have different degrees, at least in my mind. I like to think I am very pessimistic when it comes to the sports teams I root for because I've been let down so often, however I don't think I am cynical about it like yourself. My "youthful exuberance" will always be there no matter what as an avid fan of the game. I wasn't blessed with enough skill to play past high school in any of my 3 sports so I am left with sticking to the likes of being a fan and coach

This is what it's all about right there. Everyone knows we are Cleveland and we have a history of being on the brink of greatness only to have it torn away, but there is always that chance we could win the big one. That is the difference between being a true fan and just someone who will join the bandwagon after they win a title.

[Todd#43]

Everything in bold happens ON THE COURT

Yes the two words are synonymous however they have different degrees, at least in my mind. I like to think I am very pessimistic when it comes to the sports teams I root for because I've been let down so often, however I don't think I am cynical about it like yourself. My "youthful exuberance" will always be there no matter what as an avid fan of the game. I wasn't blessed with enough skill to play past high school in any of my 3 sports so I am left with sticking to the likes of being a fan and coach

Oh YAY! All that happened on the court! Hoo-FUCKIN-ray!!!!

News flash - their RECORD (wins and losses) isn't any better than it was last year. Wins and losses is what matters. Does the team that "plays better than they did last year" win the championship? No. The team that wins the most games in the championship round does.

If you want to think that pessimism and cynicism are varying degrees of the same thing go for it.

This is what it's all about right there. Everyone knows we are Cleveland and we have a history of being on the brink of greatness only to have it torn away, but there is always that chance we could win the big one. That is the difference between being a true fan and just someone who will join the bandwagon after they win a title.

This has nothing to do with being a "fair weather" fan, and everything to do with the fact that no Cleveland team has won a championship in over 46 years. I never said I wasnt a "fan", or that I didnt root for the "home team".

Living in Cleveland and expecting the Cavs, the Indians, or the Browns is like believing in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. All nice thoughts to be sure, but none of them are real.

[Bad324]

Oh YAY! All that happened on the court! Hoo-FUCKIN-ray!!!!

News flash - their RECORD (wins and losses) isn't any better than it was last year. Wins and losses is what matters. Does the team that "plays better than they did last year" win the championship? No. The team that wins the most games in the championship round does.

If you want to think that pessimism and cynicism are varying degrees of the same thing go for it.

you asked me how 90% of it was shown on the court and I proved it. Don't get all butt hurt over it. Believe what you want but I guarantee most professionals in the business would agree, from Cleveland or not.

[Todd#43]

you asked me how 90% of it was shown on the court and I proved it. Don't get all butt hurt over it. Believe what you want but I guarantee most professionals in the business would agree, from Cleveland or not.

My ass isn't hurt.

They may well be a "better" team than they were last year, but their record doesn't show that. If their record doesn't show it, it doesn't matter.

If they get knocked out in the Eastern Conference Finals, are they still a better team than they were last year? No.

If they get knocked out in the Second Round, are they still a better team than last year? No.

Regardless of what the "professionals" say, the only way they can be a better team than last year is to get into the finals. All of the discussion prior to that is meaningless. You prove you're better by what they keep track of - wins and losses. Period.

[jayjie15]

My ass isn't hurt.

They may well be a "better" team than they were last year, but their record doesn't show that. If their record doesn't show it, it doesn't matter.

If they get knocked out in the Eastern Conference Finals, are they still a better team than they were last year? No.

If they get knocked out in the Second Round, are they still a better team than last year? No.

Regardless of what the "professionals" say, the only way they can be a better team than last year is to get into the finals. All of the discussion prior to that is meaningless. You prove you're better by what they keep track of - wins and losses. Period.

Really you are not making any points? You are just saying things people are aware of already. Everyone knows the negative stigma that comes a long with being a Cleveland sports fans. Being a die hard fan means rooting through the thick and thin. The Cavs will match up better in the playoffs this year, which makes them a better team, hence they won't fizzle out and role over like b*tches like they did last year. If Mo loses his shot like he did last year in the Orlando series they have enough depth from the bench to still pull out a win. Stop being so negative and support the home team. Who else in the NBA is better than the Cavs? The Lakers? The team we embarassed on Christmas. The Celtics? They can't stay healthy and are all past their time. Give me a break.

Edited February 19, 2010 by jayjie15

[Todd#43]

Really you are not making any points? You are just saying things people are aware of already.

I'd say the two of you are the ones not making any points. Your claim that they are a "better team" is not proven by the evidence (and the only thing that matters) of their record.

Everyone knows the negative stigma that comes a long with being a Cleveland sports fans. Being a die hard fan means rooting through the thick and thin.

So now its a negative to be a Cleveland fan? Why is that? Oh yeah, I remember - its because they never win shit. I'm curious as to how you make the jump from me saying "they never win shit" to the statement that you don't think I'm a fan.

The Cavs will match up better in the playoffs this year, which makes them a better team, hence they won't fizzle out and role over like b*tches like they did last year. If Mo loses his shot like he did last year in the Orlando series they have enough depth from the bench to still pull out a win.

Easy there Nostradamus. Everything you just stated is nothing more than a prediction and/or opinion on your part. None of it has been proven yet - that's why they play the games. I mean, if the Cav's are sooooo damn good, why dont we just end the season now and give them the Championship?

Stop being so negative and support the home team. Who else in the NBA is better than the Cavs? The Lakers? The team we embarassed on Christmas. The Celtics? They can't stay healthy and are all past their time. Give me a break.

I'm not really being negative. I'm only stating the facts. Based on history, no one was better than the Cav's last year at this point in time. However, as it turns out not one but TWO teams were better than Cleveland by the end of the year.

It would be GREAT if the Cav's would win an NBA Championship. No doubt about it. However, I've been here before and I know what typically happens. I'll withhold my excitement until it actually happens.

[jayjie15]

You are being negative man. You are like Rand Quad's character in Major League. Cavs are showing promise which is more than we can say for all the other teams in Cleveland. At least there is something to be excited about.

[Todd#43]

At least there is something to be excited about.

THIS is exactly the problem.

I've BEEN excited about a Cleveland teams chances before - a LOT of times. I've seen how this movie ends - and it usually ends with "just wait till next year". I'm not going to get excited.

[jayjie15]

THIS is exactly the problem.

I've BEEN excited about a Cleveland teams chances before - a LOT of times. I've seen how this movie ends - and it usually ends with "just wait till next year". I'm not going to get excited.

Then what are we to do then? Stop going to the games and supporting the team, stop watching games on tv, and stop buying merchandise? In order to put a quality team on the floor in any sport there has to be support from the fans.

[Todd#43]

Then what are we to do then? Stop going to the games and supporting the team, stop watching games on tv, and stop buying merchandise? In order to put a quality team on the floor in any sport there has to be support from the fans.

Do you really believe that a teams biggest source of revenue is people buying $70 jerseys and $200 seats? How many bobble head dolls do the souvenir stands have to sell to pay LBJ's salary for ONE fucking game? How many $8.00 beers have to flow through the concession stands to cover Shaq's take for a year?? By the way, how much did you pay the NBA to watch the last Cav's game on TV?

"Fan" support is such a small part of a team's revenue its not even funny. The guys that own professional sports franchises by and large are gazillionaires to start with. These teams aren't money makers for them, they're all about boardroom and country club bragging rights.

Go or don't go, but the sweatshirt or dont buy the sweatshirt, watch the game on tv or switch to something else. None of it has any bearing on who plays for the team, how well they play, or how many games they win.

[jayjie15]

I thought the arguement was of being a fan not where the team got it's revenue from? If you want to argue revenue, I am sure the Cavs don't get any money for being on ESPN or TNT twice a week, while smaller market teams are barely shown. From what your saying team ownership is a hobbie not a business.

[Todd#43]

I thought the arguement was of being a fan not where the team got it's revenue from? If you want to argue revenue, I am sure the Cavs don't get any money for being on ESPN or TNT twice a week, while smaller market teams are barely shown. From what your saying team ownership is a hobbie not a business.

YOU were the one that brought up "not going to the games, not watching them on TV, and not buying the merchandise", not me. Last time I checked you dont have to actually go to the game or buy a jersey to be a fan.

Think the Cav's dont make any money for being on tv? Think again, the combined broadcast and cable tv package that the NBA gets is over $5,000,000,000.00, and this money is distributed among the teams in the league. Additionally, individual teams often have deals with local cable networks (FSN, etc.) to get even MORE money.

Believe me, Gilbert and the Cav's aren't going to go bankrupt because you, me, or the man in the moon didn't go to a game or buy a t-shirt.

[Big Speazy]

I'm lazy tonight... So I'm not going to read everything else, but I just wanted to say I'll miss the big dumb Z-tard until he signs back in 29 days.

Hopefully, mainly, is what TNT pounded on last night. Jamison will learn when he needs to cut and get to the basket, what JJ is now pickng up on.

PF is now crammed, and only true C is Diesel until Ztard comes back.

Granted, I liked the team how it was before, but I think Jamison will help us out more than we gave up... I mean a first rounder, and Ztard (who will come back, like Joe Smith trade) plus we got the vagabond Telfair as a 3rd gaurd...

I'll take that.

[jayjie15]

YOU were the one that brought up "not going to the games, not watching them on TV, and not buying the merchandise", not me. Last time I checked you dont have to actually go to the game or buy a jersey to be a fan.

Think the Cav's dont make any money for being on tv? Think again, the combined broadcast and cable tv package that the NBA gets is over $5,000,000,000.00, and this money is distributed among the teams in the league. Additionally, individual teams often have deals with local cable networks (FSN, etc.) to get even MORE money.

Believe me, Gilbert and the Cav's aren't going to go bankrupt because you, me, or the man in the moon didn't go to a game or buy a t-shirt.

So you are agreeing with me, good. . You made it sound like team ownership isn't a business and they don't make any money from the fan base and tv contracts, and now you are. This wasn't a debate about the team from the beginning or being a fan, it was supposed to be people's feelings on the trade. So do you think this trade will make the Cavs a better team or should they have kept Z? I never posed the question will they win a championship or are they a better team than last year because we could argue for years about that. We will see when the playoffs start.

[Todd#43]

So you are agreeing with me, good. . You made it sound like team ownership isn't a business and they don't make any money from the fan base and tv contracts, and now you are.

Hold up there, YOU were the one that said they don't make any money from being on ESPN or TNT, remember this?

I thought the arguement was of being a fan not where the team got it's revenue from? If you want to argue revenue,

I am sure the Cavs don't get any money for being on ESPN or TNT twice a week,

while smaller market teams are barely shown. From what your saying team ownership is a hobbie not a business.

Fact is they make a SHIT LOAD of money from being on TV, and the small market teams make money every time the Cav's or the Lakers are on TV.

This wasn't a debate about the team from the beginning or being a fan, it was supposed to be people's feelings on the trade. So do you think this trade will make the Cavs a better team or should they have kept Z? I never posed the question will they win a championship or are they a better team than last year because we could argue for years about that. We will see when the playoffs start.

Ok, lets take a look at that.

Cav's record since the break? 0-2

Cav's record since Jamison started playing? 0-1

Jamison's point total "0" (he went 0-12 last night)

Based on the early returns, I'd say they didn't get any better. But what do I know?

[jayjie15]

Hold up there, YOU were the one that said they don't make any money from being on ESPN or TNT, remember this?

Fact is they make a SHIT LOAD of money from being on TV, and the small market teams make money every time the Cav's or the Lakers are on TV.

Ok, lets take a look at that.

Cav's record since the break? 0-2

Cav's record since Jamison started playing? 0-1

Jamison's point total "0" (he went 0-12 last night)

Based on the early returns, I'd say they didn't get any better. But what do I know?

I was being sarcastic man. I know they make shit tons of money. You are just trying to argue with me for the sake of arguing. You are right though, they look out of sync with him but hopefully it will come around. I would much rather see the Z and Shaq combo. That is something that no other team in NBA has. You have to admitt though, they are still the best team in the NBA?

[Todd#43]

You have to admitt though, they are still the best team in the NBA?

By their record they are currently the best team in the NBA, but they are only 1 game ahead of the lakers.

They were also "the best team in the NBA" last year at this time.

We know how that turned out.

[jayjie15]

By their record they are currently the best team in the NBA, but they are only 1 game ahead of the lakers.

They were also "the best team in the NBA" last year at this time.

We know how that turned out.

Ah a compliment. A back handed compliment, but a compliment none the less. I am just as skeptical as you are, but from your prior posts you make it sound like you aren't even a fan anymore? You are just one of those glass half empty guys ahe? You have to keep the faith...

[Todd#43]

Ah a compliment. A back handed compliment, but a compliment none the less. I am just as skeptical as you are, but from your prior posts you make it sound like you aren't even a fan anymore? You are just one of those glass half empty guys ahe? You have to keep the faith...

Nope, not a compliment - not even a left handed one.

I merely stated the facts.

Although, the Lakers are only 1/2 game behind them now that they've lost THREE in a row.

Of course last year following the All Star break they went on a 15-1 run. This year, they're 0-3 since the break, right?

For what its worth, they played Orlando today, didnt they? Thought they were gonna "match up way better with them" because of the trade?

[jayjie15]

Nope, not a compliment - not even a left handed one.

I merely stated the facts.

Although, the Lakers are only 1/2 game behind them now that they've lost THREE in a row.

Of course last year following the All Star break they went on a 15-1 run. This year, they're 0-3 since the break, right?

For what its worth, they played Orlando today, didnt they? Thought they were gonna "match up way better with them" because of the trade?

From what I read of your posts on here you seem to enjoy stirring up an arguement. I am sure you still watch every Cavs game but posting on here that they aren't going anywhere entertains you. Whatever floats your boat. There is still a lot of season we will just see how it plays out...

[jayjie15]

And for the record the Cavs kicked Orlandos a$$ on February 11th at home, but I am sure you still think Orlando is a better team.

[Bad324]

As I've tried to explain to several of my friends who seem to not understand how basketball teams work: http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/?p=25185

OK Cavs fans. I’m only going to say this once. Listen carefully.

This three game losing streak is not a big deal. Step away from the ledge, take a deep breath, and calm down.

After yesterday’s 101-95 loss in Orlando, many of you are ready to jump. Who can blame you? After all, you are a Cleveland fan and it is in our DNA to assume the worst and attempt to prepare for it. But please consider the following:

The three game losing streak came on the heels of a 13 game winning streak. If the Cavs had a 16-game run where they went 13-3, would any of you be worried? Nope. But since the three games came in a row, all of a sudden the sky is falling. Also, you cannot forget that the winning streak featured the longest home-stand the Cavs had had in five years.

Consider the opponents. The first loss came Thursday night at The Q to the Denver Nuggets by two points in OT. This was their first game without Zydrunas Ilgauskas, and with Mo Williams back. It took 17 missed free throws and a Carmelo Anthony jumper with 1.1 seconds left to end the streak. There is certainly no shame in losing to the Nuggets, who are currently second in the Western Conference and are generally thought of as one of the five best teams in the NBA. Oh, and after yesterday’s beat down of Boston, Denver is now 5-0 against the Lakers, Cavs, and Celtics this season.

The next loss came on the heels of a back to backer – their first in a month – in Charlotte, a team that seems to have the Cavs number this season. The Bobcats have taken down the Wine and Gold three of the four times the teams have met. In this one, Antawn Jamison made his debut for a weary group of Cavaliers, who played an overtime game that didn’t end until 11 pm EST and had to get geared back up for a 7 pm EST start in Charlotte. The grogginess showed. Mike Brown’s bunch never seemed into it from the opening tip and were blown out 110-93. Worst of all, Jamison, the one player who was fresh, produced a horrific debut, going 0-12 from the field.

Yesterday’s loss, the third in a row, was a tough road spot against another of the NBA’s top five teams and their current rival, the Orlando Magic. In this one, the Magic came out absolutely smokin’, peaking at 62% late in the second quarter. The Cavs led late in the fourth quarter, but were again done in by the hot-shooting Magic, who nailed their last eight field goals to close out the game. Just like with the Nuggets, there is absolutely no shame in losing to Orlando. Did you all forget that the Cavs had already beaten them twice this year?

(side note – is there any team that you dislike more, right this second, than the Magic? Between Dwight Howard and the extremely unlikeable dog Vince Carter, I just despise them.)

The Jamison acquisition and the return of Mo Williams changes the rotation completely. Mo Williams is back. Delonte West is back. Antwan Jamison is in. Zydrunas Ilgauskas is out. So what does Mike Brown do now? Just like he had to at the beginning of the season, the Cavs head man is trying to figure out roles for so many talented players.

Prime example: On Thursday night, Jawad Williams played 16 minutes, while Jamario Moon got his first DNP-CD in weeks. The next night in Charlotte, Moon played 17 while Jawad played three. Yesterday, Moon never got off the bench while Jawad played 13 minutes, including some of the fourth quarter.

Boobie Gibson played so well as a starter during the 13 game winning streak, yet he will now struggle to find a role (why wasn’t he out there late in the game yesterday rather than the ice cold Mo Williams?). Not having Z on the roster now put more minutes on Shaq at the five, as well as moving Anderson Varejao to the role of backup Center, which he has rarely done this season. Also consider J.J. Hickson’s reduced role, getting Mo back into the flow, and the entire team needing to see how they work with Jamison, who still has yet to participate in a full practice with the team.

Do not forget how the team struggled early on under these same set of circumstances with Shaq, Anthony Parker, and Moon. It’s up to Mike Brown to figure out a shortened rotation and go with it. It will take some time, but by the time the playoffs come around, the Cavs should be hitting their stride again.

——

Don’t worry, this team will be fine. They are veteran laden, smart, and will re-focus once things settle down. Listen to your captain, Lebron James: “We’re going through a transition period right now. Coach is trying to figure out lineups, we’re trying to figure out certain sets but ‘Tawn is going to help us out a lot for the rest of the season.”

This is a tough stretch of their schedule (after a home tilt with New Orleans on Tuesday, they have back to back road games Thursday and Friday at Boston and at Toronto) and more losses may come. But again, they still have a five game lead over Orlando in the East and have plenty of time to get their groove back. In the end, its all about the ring anyways. And that wouldn’t come until June.