Thoughts on Arizona immigration law?

[SAMBUSA]

None of this has anything to do with race. It has to do with Legal / illegal

You simply cant sustain having thousands of criminals running drugs and doing various crimes, non criminal types sucking up tax payer provided resources and not even paying taxes. You have to do something, no matter where they come from or what color they are. Its really getting old having liberals turn every issue into a race thing just to distract from the truth....... I'm amazed that people will put up with drug running, murder, kidnapping, rapes...... just to preserve a few liberal votes.

Bullshit, it has everything to do with racial profiling. And me a liberal? That's the funniest shit I've ever heard. Thanks for the lol

[Rod38um]

Bullshit, it has everything to do with racial profiling. And me a liberal? That's the funniest shit I've ever heard. Thanks for the lol

Uh..........No it doesn't.........

[SAMBUSA]

Uh..........No it doesn't.........

Mmmmmkay, keep telling yourself that if that's what helps you feel better about yourself.

[jporter12]

The difference is that if you look mexican, (regardless of your race) and you don't have your "papers" you can now be arrested without warrant.

THAT is unconstitutional.

Are people that aren't here legally protected by the constitution? If they come through the front door, become documented Americans, get jobs, and live the "American dream" there would be no problem.

Every time I've been in a vehicle that was stopped for a traffic violation, Ihad to provide my ID os some sort of info they could enter into the computer to "check me out" even if I wasn't the driver. I don't see where this is so much different in what will actually be done in practice.

If Arizona has the resources to do what some people think they will with it, I need to move there! They don't have the resources to just stop everyone they see to ask if they're here legally. If someone starts to run off if a LEO says "hi" to them, is that suspicion enough to detain them and see what the issue is, be it drugs, or they're illegal?

I'm trying to understand here and asking questions, not trying to fan the flames.

And Mags, I would think that providing a legal document, such as a state ID would be sufficient for your niece.

[John]

If I am stopped at any given time I am required by law to show my "papers". I am 34 yr old white male, and have been asked many times for my "papers". Everyone on this board that have been in contact with police have been asked for their "papers".

The "papers" I speak of is my State issued I.D., why is it so bad to ask one to carry identification? I don't see (forsee) the authorities just going around like Nazi's asking for it.

Be legal or get legal.

Every time I've been in a vehicle that was stopped for a traffic violation, Ihad to provide my ID os some sort of info they could enter into the computer to "check me out" even if I wasn't the driver.

the only time you are required to show your driver license is when you are operating a motor vehicle.

otherwise, all you legally have to give a cop is your name, address and birthdate. thats it.

[John]

why doesnt arizona drop its income tax, and institute a state-wide sales tax? then you get tax money from EVERYONE regardless of their status. legal or illegal. drug dealers, people who get paid under the table etc. they ALL buy things, and with a sales tax they would ALL be paying taxes.

[Disclaimer]

I haven't fully vetted the idea of a sales/consumption tax, but from the initial outlook -- that seems to be a pretty good method of progressive taxation. I've yet to find a lot of downsides to that.

[chevysoldier]

If I am stopped at any given time I am required by law to show my "papers". I am 34 yr old white male, and have been asked many times for my "papers". Everyone on this board that have been in contact with police have been asked for their "papers".

The "papers" I speak of is my State issued I.D., why is it so bad to ask one to carry identification? I don't see (forsee) the authorities just going around like Nazi's asking for it.

Be legal or get legal.

Are people that aren't here legally protected by the constitution? If they come through the front door, become documented Americans, get jobs, and live the "American dream" there would be no problem.

Every time I've been in a vehicle that was stopped for a traffic violation, Ihad to provide my ID os some sort of info they could enter into the computer to "check me out" even if I wasn't the driver. I don't see where this is so much different in what will actually be done in practice.

If Arizona has the resources to do what some people think they will with it, I need to move there! They don't have the resources to just stop everyone they see to ask if they're here legally. If someone starts to run off if a LEO says "hi" to them, is that suspicion enough to detain them and see what the issue is, be it drugs, or they're illegal?

I'm trying to understand here and asking questions, not trying to fan the flames.

And Mags, I would think that providing a legal document, such as a state ID would be sufficient for your niece.

If you are just walking down the street you are not required to possess any kind of identification. If you are driving, you are required to show that you are legally able to drive. Driving is a privilege, not a right.

[jporter12]

I'm in the middle of a conversation about that very thing right now.

The friend I was speaking with is a libertarian. I mentioned showing ID when in a vehicle that was stopped, where someone else was driving. He said that he has challenged LEO's before on the need to know who he is, that he wasn't the one being stopped, and that he was abiding by all the laws.

[jagr]

I caught an interview with the Sherriff of a border county in Arozona last night. Pinela county I believe. He described his county as being under seige. Murders, home invasions, all the other bad stuff. He said last month alone the had 64 police pursuits. 64 in one month. He said most were smugglers, either drug or human. He didn't give a percentage but that most were armed. These pursuits also caused multiple crashes and a few fatalities. This is before the new law BTW. Intrerview was with Greta.

[swingset]

I caught an interview with the Sherriff of a border county in Arozona last night. Pinela county I believe. He described his county as being under seige. Murders, home invasions, all the other bad stuff. He said last month alone the had 64 police pursuits. 64 in one month. He said most were smugglers, either drug or human. He didn't give a percentage but that most were armed. These pursuits also caused multiple crashes and a few fatalities. This is before the new law BTW. Intrerview was with Greta.

Let me guess, this Sheriff was a [foreboding music] white person [/foreboding music], wasn't he? Hate monger.

[jagr]

Yes. He also said his county is mostly Hispanic and he's doing all he can with 200 Deputys. He is also asking for Troops to assist him.

[max power]

Are people that aren't here legally protected by the constitution? If they come through the front door, become documented Americans, get jobs, and live the "American dream" there would be no problem.

Get legal and pay taxes like the rest of us or GTFO!!!

[redkow97]

I'm in the middle of a conversation about that very thing right now.

The friend I was speaking with is a libertarian. I mentioned showing ID when in a vehicle that was stopped, where someone else was driving. He said that he has challenged LEO's before on the need to know who he is, that he wasn't the one being stopped, and that he was abiding by all the laws.

Is your libertarian buddy a white guy? I'm not one who tries to find racism in all situations, but let's be honest here; if a cop pulls white, 27-yr-old, clean-cut, 'me' over, and sees my 25-yr-old, harmless, white wife in the passenger seat, she can get away with a lot more, "I don't have to provide you my drivers license" statements than a male minority between age 17 and 30 can.

You can claim that's profiling, or you can claim that's the cop basing his judgment on factual statistical data. Either way, the minority male can make the same statement to authorities with very different results.

Ever seen an episode of "COPS" where a white woman is enraged about being pulled over and screams at the officer, and demands his 'badge number?' ya think that would go the same way if it weren't a white female? hell no.

[swingset]

Is your libertarian buddy a white guy? I'm not one who tries to find racism in all situations, but let's be honest here; if a cop pulls white, 27-yr-old, clean-cut, 'me' over, and sees my 25-yr-old, harmless, white wife in the passenger seat, she can get away with a lot more, "I don't have to provide you my drivers license" statements than a male minority between age 17 and 30 can.

You can claim that's profiling, or you can claim that's the cop basing his judgment on factual statistical data. Either way, the minority male can make the same statement to authorities with very different results.

Ever seen an episode of "COPS" where a white woman is enraged about being pulled over and screams at the officer, and demands his 'badge number?' ya think that would go the same way if it weren't a white female? hell no.

You can apply that same scenario and differing results to age too. Elderly people can get away with shit a young, clean, white man can't.

Racism, sexism, ageism, whatever.

Wanna be a butt-hurt victim your whole life? You'll always find you can fit into some category that's being held down, abused, etc.

If all you ever select to be in your life is the color of your skin, your gender, your age, your sexual proclivity, don't be surprised if that's all people see.

[swingset]

Just saw this, thought it was interesting:

Police state: How Mexico treats illegal aliens

By Michelle Malkin • April 28, 2010 12:36 AM

This is what a “police state” looks like

My syndicated column today responds to Mexican President Felipe Calderon’s demagoguery on Arizona’s immigration enforcement law. Calderon has a long history of bashing the U.S. — and then getting rewarded for it with billions of dollars in foreign aid (see here, here, and here).

I reported on Calderon’s aggressive meddling on behalf of illegal aliens through his government consulate offices in America here. Heather Mac Donald published a thorough investigation of the Mexican government meddle-crats here. Allan Wall has reported on it for years. Mike Sweeney, an Arizona Republic letter-writer underscores my column theme today:

“Having traveled into Mexico last year to various cities on the Baja Peninsula, a distance of more than 1,000 miles round-trip, we were stopped more than 20 times at various checkpoints. At most of those stops, we were told to exit the vehicle and we were subjected to rigorous inspections. Where does Mexican President Felipe Calderón get off with his hypocritical outrage at our Senate Bill 1070?”

Where indeed?

***

How Mexico treats illegal aliens

by Michelle Malkin

Creators Syndicate

Copyright 2010

Mexican President Felipe Calderon has accused Arizona of opening the door “to intolerance, hate, discrimination and abuse in law enforcement.” But Arizona has nothing on Mexico when it comes to cracking down on illegal aliens. While open-borders activists decry new enforcement measures signed into law in “Nazi-zona” last week, they remain deaf, dumb or willfully blind to the unapologetically restrictionist policies of our neighbors to the south.

The Arizona law bans sanctuary cities that refuse to enforce immigration laws, stiffens penalties against illegal alien day laborers and their employers, makes it a misdemeanor for immigrants to fail to complete and carry an alien registration document, and allows the police to arrest immigrants unable to show documents proving they are in the U.S. legally. If those rules constitute the racist, fascist, xenophobic, inhumane regime that the National Council of La Raza, Al Sharpton, Catholic bishops and their grievance-mongering followers claim, then what about these regulations and restrictions imposed on foreigners?

– The Mexican government will bar foreigners if they upset “the equilibrium of the national demographics.” How’s that for racial and ethnic profiling?

– If outsiders do not enhance the country’s “economic or national interests” or are “not found to be physically or mentally healthy,” they are not welcome. Neither are those who show “contempt against national sovereignty or security.” They must not be economic burdens on society and must have clean criminal histories. Those seeking to obtain Mexican citizenship must show a birth certificate, provide a bank statement proving economic independence, pass an exam and prove they can provide their own health care.

– Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years’ imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years’ imprisonment. Foreigners may be kicked out of the country without due process and the endless bites at the litigation apple that illegal aliens are afforded in our country (see, for example, President Obama’s illegal alien aunt — a fugitive from deportation for eight years who is awaiting a second decision on her previously rejected asylum claim).

– Law enforcement officials at all levels — by national mandate — must cooperate to enforce immigration laws, including illegal alien arrests and deportations. The Mexican military is also required to assist in immigration enforcement operations. Native-born Mexicans are empowered to make citizens’ arrests of illegal aliens and turn them in to authorities.

– Ready to show your papers? Mexico’s National Catalog of Foreigners tracks all outside tourists and foreign nationals. A National Population Registry tracks and verifies the identity of every member of the population, who must carry a citizens’ identity card. Visitors who do not possess proper documents and identification are subject to arrest as illegal aliens.

All of these provisions are enshrined in Mexico’s Ley General de Población (General Law of the Population) and were spotlighted in a 2006 research paper published by the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy. There’s been no public clamor for “comprehensive immigration reform” in Mexico, however, because pro-illegal alien speech by outsiders is prohibited.

Consider: Open-borders protesters marched freely at the Capitol building in Arizona, comparing GOP Gov. Jan Brewer to Hitler, waving Mexican flags, advocating that demonstrators “Smash the State,” and holding signs that proclaimed “No human is illegal” and “We have rights.”

But under the Mexican constitution, such political speech by foreigners is banned. Noncitizens cannot “in any way participate in the political affairs of the country.” In fact, a plethora of Mexican statutes enacted by its congress limit the participation of foreign nationals and companies in everything from investment, education, mining and civil aviation to electric energy and firearms. Foreigners have severely limited private property and employment rights (if any).

As for abuse, the Mexican government is notorious for its abuse of Central American illegal aliens who attempt to violate Mexico’s southern border. The Red Cross has protested rampant Mexican police corruption, intimidation and bribery schemes targeting illegal aliens there for years. Mexico didn’t respond by granting mass amnesty to illegal aliens, as it is demanding that we do. It clamped down on its borders even further. In late 2008, the Mexican government launched an aggressive deportation plan to curtain illegal Cuban immigration and human trafficking through Cancun.

Meanwhile, Mexican consular offices in the United States have coordinated with left-wing social justice groups and the Catholic Church leadership to demand a moratorium on all deportations and a freeze on all employment raids across America.

Mexico is doing the job Arizona is now doing — a job the U.S. government has failed miserably to do: putting its people first. Here’s the proper rejoinder to all the hysterical demagogues in Mexico (and their sympathizers here on American soil) now calling for boycotts and invoking Jim Crow laws, apartheid and the Holocaust because Arizona has taken its sovereignty into its own hands.

http://michellemalkin.com/2010/04/28/police-state-how-mexico-treats-illegal-aliens/

[Disclaimer]

You have an Ann Coulter article you want to post too?

Since when has the argument "But 'so and so' gets to do it", been rational? Just because Mexico's Laws are steaming piles, doesn't mean we should lower our freedoms to their level.

[chevysoldier]

That's it. Make in mandatory to marry someone from a different race. Pretty soon we'll all be the same color.

[John]

Ever seen an episode of "COPS" where a white woman is enraged about being pulled over and screams at the officer, and demands his 'badge number?' ya think that would go the same way if it weren't a white female? hell no.

doesnt matter WHO is in the car, it would all go the same way if the camera was not there.

[John]

if americans could go to mexico and make ten times what they make here with no documentation needed. no passport, no papers no nothing...

we would all be on the way down there to hop the border illegally right now. guaranteed.

[jagr]

You have an Ann Coulter article you want to post too?

Since when has the argument "But 'so and so' gets to do it", been rational? Just because Mexico's Laws are steaming piles, doesn't mean we should lower our freedoms to their level.

Canadians are next.

(I hope)

[Cheech]

Ah, I see the Fox News/con-blog buzz is in full motion.

from swingset's quoted troll Malkin:

– Ready to show your papers? Mexico’s National Catalog of Foreigners tracks all outside tourists and foreign nationals. A National Population Registry tracks and verifies the identity of every member of the population, who must carry a citizens’ identity card. Visitors who do not possess proper documents and identification are subject to arrest as illegal aliens.

As someone who has walked and drove over the Mexican border as recently as early last year, this is complete bullshit. The Mexican government stops cars at random (and I've been stopped 25% of the time), and even then has NEVER run my passport through a system. Walking across I've only been stopped once in probably 30 crosses from US -> MX, and that was only because there were extra CBP officers interviewing/harassing the MX -> US crossers. The stop lasted all of 90 seconds and ID was never ran.

In short, Michelle Malkin is a vapid twit who probably relies on Wikipedia for her fact-checking and sources.

Fuck AZ's law, I'll tell you what's patently illegal and unconstitutional: the policies of the CBP. These assholes have a 100mile "Constitution free zone" around the borders of the US. DHS (and all it's subsidiaries) right now can do and search whatever the fuck they want as long as it's within that range. I've been stopped at 3 checkpoints WAY within AZ by CBP for absolutely no reason at all other than I was driving on that road.

Source: http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone

[swingset]

You have an Ann Coulter article you want to post too?

Since when has the argument "But 'so and so' gets to do it", been rational? Just because Mexico's Laws are steaming piles, doesn't mean we should lower our freedoms to their level.

10 points for patronizing, infantile retort that misses the point.

The argument in the terms she framed it is 100% accurate. Mexico cultivates, encourages, and ultimately profits from the illegals coming into our country, yet they are iron-fisted when dealing with immigration of the exact same type....and have the audacity to complain about our enforcement of our borders, claiming xenophobia and racism when they practice it wholesale.

If you despise the right wing pundits so much, it must be doubly frustrating when they're outsmarting you.

[swingset]

As someone who has walked and drove over the Mexican border as recently as early last year, this is complete bullshit. The Mexican government stops cars at random (and I've been stopped 25% of the time), and even then has NEVER run my passport through a system. Walking across I've only been stopped once in probably 30 crosses from US -> MX, and that was only because there were extra CBP officers interviewing/harassing the MX -> US crossers. The stop lasted all of 90 seconds and ID was never ran.

Have you, out of curiosity, crossed the southern Mexican border? I have. I suggest you do so before speaking so authoritatively on how Mexican border enforcement works, and on whom.

BTW, what Malkin is quoting is their law & policy, not their enforcement (read it again)....and what is being criticized in Arizona right now is exactly that, the law and the hysteria about how it will be enforced, not the actual incidents of people being stopped or the conditions of that law being in effect.

Edited April 28, 2010 by swingset

[Cheech]

Have you, out of curiosity, crossed the southern Mexican border? I have. I suggest you do so before speaking so authoritatively on how Mexican border enforcement works, and on whom.

I re-read the entire copypasta from Malkin's blog. Dirty feelings aside, there's there's a lot of generalizations going on.

Mexico’s National Catalog of Foreigners tracks all outside tourists and foreign nationals. A National Population Registry tracks and verifies the identity of every member of the population, who must carry a citizens’ identity card. Visitors who do not possess proper documents and identification are subject to arrest as illegal aliens

Yes, the Mexican government has a problem of their own with illegal immigration at their southern border. I'm not refuting or even debating that fact. However, when you post dumb shit like this, be prepared to be corrected by someone who knows more than you do.

I am an outside tourist, and it could be argued that since I am going to work for a registered Mexican company that I am working illegally or without a work visa. I have never been put on any Mexican government database or list, for all intents and purposes I am invisible to them, yet have entered and exited the country at will through multiple modes of transport for the last 4 years.