I hate the union mentality...

[Steve Butters]

tbutera...

I don't think any of us have a problem with someone working hard and getting what they're due. It's just the many examples of those who work the bare minimum, expect the maximum, and don't give a crap about anyone around them or the employer they're working for that ruin it. Unfortunately, that has become the sterotype of a union worker (UAW in particular). My good friend from high school told me how they used to sit in the breakroom for half the night and get payed for it at one of the local stamping plants. He's now just getting done with school and moving into a different career after the plant closed. We can point fingers at the execs, and they would deserve it, but there are plenty of reasons to hate the union mentality and tactics.

I also work at a company that is non-union, but has many employees with that union "I'm entitled" mentality. Funny, when the economy tanked, a lot of those people (some who had been here 30 years) were let go (good riddance).

There was a time and place for the unions, and we owe them for bringing workplace standards up, but that time has long since past.

go work for a huge company like UPS that doesnt give a shit about their employees since theres so many of them...then come back and tell me that unions arent needed

its give and take...if they treat us well, were going to work...but if im working and one of the supervisors begins to hassle me for no reason, you bet your ass im slowing down to the bare minimum

just because were workers, does not mean they should be allowed to step on us...if you want us to work hard, and respect you, then let us do our job and show us some respect.

im not breaking my balls for a company that is going to treat me like shit - and thats where the union steps in

perfect example: busting ass all day doing a great job, me and the other 2 guys im working with stop for 5mins because one guy has to go to the bathroom (we work as a set so we cant run with just 2)....supervisor comes over telling us we suck and were worthless and were the reason the whole building is behind etc.....

now, keep in mind, we had gotten more done that day than any other set - but since we stopped for a bathroom break, they felt the right to come at us with that shit

that was the last truck we did that day, we slowed down to snail speed - fuck them....you earn respect if you want it, that purple shirt and khakis doesnt mean anything to me - and theres nothing they could do about it because they would have had to go get a union steward to overseer it if they were to reprimand us, and they definitely did not want the union guys coming over with their little book that tells how many bathroom breaks were allowed to have, how many boxes per hour we have to move, etc

Edited August 13, 2010 by Steve Butters

[SpeedTriple44444]

if you don't like them don't join. Will always be around my friend. It's time the scab owners start paying the workers a decent wage. Trust me the owners bid it the same.

I won't... no need to worry about that. Where I work, they pay more than a fair wage without the union. Not saying every place is like that, but there are some. Those "scab" owners you're talking about are the people bringing jobs to the economy. But I guess if everyone has your mentality, they would be better off just outsourcing them to China or India. After all, when you're just trying to run a successful business and your workers are basically telling you to fuck off, why keep them around?

[Steve Butters]

After all, when you're just trying to run a successful business and your workers are basically telling you to fuck off, why keep them around?

im sure thats what the egyptians said right before tossing the slave jews into fire pits

theres a difference in trying to run a successful business and abusing your workers

hell, if you want successful just go hire a bunch of little kids...they dont even understand the concept of money, give them a dollar and they will be ballers, they will work as long as you make them work

there has to be someone who steps in and draws the line

[Sidewinder600]

To everybody that's union and comes on this thread and gets offended because they work hard and do their job properly, understand you're not the demographic that's getting bashed here. The issue at hand is that there are many that are content to sit on their asses for most of their day and dodge what they get paid to do. If most of us did that our asses would be out on the street. The sticking point here is that these union guys that do that get to dive behind their union cards when they get called on it, and still get offended when somebody tries to work around them.

[dorifto240]

What I struggle with is when a Union is willing to let its members get laid off in exchange for higher wages.

I thought a big part of unions was keeping union guys employed, not negotiating them getting laid off. For all their talk about dues and loyalty, the bosses are as quick to turn on you as management is.

Don't get me wrong, I love a 40 hour work week and benefits. But at some point unions went from being beneficial to being harmful. The movers and shakers in the auto world are, by and large, non-union.

And when some UAW guy starts whining about outsourcing, they get pissed (PISSED) when I ask why they haven't unionized overseas. I don't hear much about the Delhi Local 429 or UAW-Beijing. If the unions goal is workers right, shouldn't they be kicking ass over seas, where auto workers are being oppressed by bosses?

"Union Made" used to mean something across the board. Quality, strength and durability, that's what you got from unions for years. Now, except for some high quality individuals and certain unions, it's something less.

The mob ties don't help either...

That should be some gasoline on this fire

[SpeedTriple44444]

go work for a huge company like UPS that doesnt give a shit about their employees since theres so many of them...then come back and tell me that unions arent needed

its give and take...if they treat us well, were going to work...but if im working and one of the supervisors begins to hassle me for no reason, you bet your ass im slowing down to the bare minimum

just because were workers, does not mean they should be allowed to step on us...if you want us to work hard, and respect you, then let us do our job and show us some respect.

im not breaking my balls for a company that is going to treat me like shit - and thats where the union steps in

perfect example: busting ass all day doing a great job, me and the other 2 guys im working with stop for 5mins because one guy has to go to the bathroom (we work as a set so we cant run with just 2)....supervisor comes over telling us we suck and were worthless and were the reason the whole building is behind etc.....

now, keep in mind, we had gotten more done that day than any other set - but since we stopped for a bathroom break, they felt the right to come at us with that shit

that was the last truck we did that day, we slowed down to snail speed - fuck them....you earn respect if you want it, that purple shirt and khakis doesnt mean anything to me - and theres nothing they could do about it because they would have had to go get a union steward to overseer it if they were to reprimand us, and they definitely did not want the union guys coming over with their little book that tells how many bathroom breaks were allowed to have, how many boxes per hour we have to move, etc

You have a point. I've worked some places like that, but in general I've had it pretty fair with my non-union employers. Maybe my outlook would change if I were in a place like that.

I know what it's like to have a supervisor like that. One place I worked while I was layed off temporarily, there was a guy that liked to be a dick about everything. When I got my call to go back to my normal job I quit immediately, and told his boss just what the score was, and that he was the reason I was walking with no notice at all (which was true). I hadn't ever done that before, and I wouldn't again, unless it was a similar situation.

It's sad that there is a need for a union. Whatever happened to work ethic on the part of the employee, and appreciation on the part of the employer?

[TopLeft]

I (happily!) work for Honda. One of the "Huge companies" you mentioned. Several unionizing attempts over the last 25+ years have failed. Embarrassingly so. Unions were needed at a time to keep business needs & worker safety in concert, but their positive influence is very much doubted. Ask GM, Chrysler what's the major anchor on daily business operations.

We have a small group of workers who still feel the need for a union, and Honda does not prohibit their display of "chicken-sh*t yellow union stickers" because the mutual respect is there as an ingrained business operating principle.

Merely my opinion, but these small number (about 3%) of associates are schizoid fatalists who lack a serious work ethic.

If it you owned the business, would you discipline a "snail speed" worker or invite a union?

[dorifto240]

To everybody that's union and comes on this thread and gets offended because they work hard and do their job properly, understand you're not the demographic that's getting bashed here. The issue at hand is that there are many that are content to sit on their asses for most of their day and dodge what they get paid to do. If most of us did that our asses would be out on the street. The sticking point here is that these union guys that do that get to dive behind their union cards when they get called on it, and still get offended when somebody tries to work around them.

And from a non-union standpoint:

those assholes that ruin it for everybody are protected by the union. Management hates him, his co-workers hate him, his steward hates him. Everyone knows he does a shitty job, but he cries "Union!" when someone tries to fire him, and he keeps his job.

We all know the guy sucks at his job, so why aren't we all working to get rid of him.

[Steve Butters]

And from a non-union standpoint:

those assholes that ruin it for everybody are protected by the union. Management hates him, his co-workers hate him, his steward hates him. Everyone knows he does a shitty job, but he cries "Union!" when someone tries to fire him, and he keeps his job.

We all know the guy sucks at his job, so why aren't we all working to get rid of him.

i work with a guy like this

what a piece of shit...he bothers me....

all the management want his ass out, the rest of us want his ass out, yet hes still there....

and hes always got his fuckin cell phone out recording video and taking pictures any time any employee or supervisor does anything wrong....

then he will file a grievance on the supe or he will save the video of the workers until the next time he gets in trouble and then he will say "well you guys let this guy do it!"

and god forbid he sees a white guy breaking a rule, then it becomes a whole race issue....white dude was wearing headphones and were not allowed....well this guy had gotten in trouble for it in the past, so he pulls out his camera and takes a pic of the white guy wearing them and then files a grievance against our supe for racism, when the supe made the white guy take them off as soon as he saw them anyways

*** the guy is black, fyi

[that dude]

Dude you guys are way off about getting fired. If you suck you get laid off or fired . Real simple. Don't fool yourselves

[dorifto240]

i work with a guy like this

what a piece of shit...he bothers me....

all the management want his ass out, the rest of us want his ass out, yet hes still there....

and hes always got his fuckin cell phone out recording video and taking pictures any time any employee or supervisor does anything wrong....

then he will file a grievance on the supe or he will save the video of the workers until the next time he gets in trouble and then he will say "well you guys let this guy do it!"

and god forbid he sees a white guy breaking a rule, then it becomes a whole race issue....white dude was wearing headphones and were not allowed....well this guy had gotten in trouble for it in the past, so he pulls out his camera and takes a pic of the white guy wearing them and then files a grievance against our supe for racism, when the supe made the white guy take them off as soon as he saw them anyways

*** the guy is black, fyi

I hate people like that!

Even if there was an internal process, where he quietly disappeared (not in the Jimmy Hoffa way). That would alleviate plenty of the Union/Non-Union issues.

[Steve Butters]

Dude you guys are way off about getting fired. If you suck you get laid off or fired . Real simple. Don't fool yourselves

youre right - i havent seen the process go down daily at my job.

i watched a dude straight up cuss out a female supe who was harassing him - she fired him on the spot

he was back the following wednesday because he had his hearing on monday

you have to be a pretty big dbag to actually get fired from a union job and then have it hold out through the hearings and appeals

Edited August 13, 2010 by Steve Butters

[RSVDon]

Wanna talk about getting paid?

We're in an economical slump right, many people laid off, no work, no money.

Well, the vehicle plant I'm at is running full capacity and then some to make their high target goal. They are working 5/11s (for those who don't know, that's 5 days a week, 11 hours a day) and since anything over 40 hours is time and a half minimum, there's some big money here. How big? ~$44/hour. So that Friday that finalizes the week and really pays the good overtime, nobody comes to work. Always short handed on Fridays...

If I was working line here and had a job and I could make ~$44/hour just for working an 11 hour Friday, you'd be damn sure my ass would be in here sending vehicles down the line.

Doesn't make sense.

[SpeedTriple44444]

Wanna talk about getting paid?

We're in an economical slump right, many people laid off, no work, no money.

Well, the vehicle plant I'm at is running full capacity and then some to make their high target goal. They are working 5/11s (for those who don't know, that's 5 days a week, 11 hours a day) and since anything over 40 hours is time and a half minimum, there's some big money here. How big? ~$44/hour. So that Friday that finalizes the week and really pays the good overtime, nobody comes to work. Always short handed on Fridays...

If I was working line here and had a job and I could make ~$44/hour just for working an 11 hour Friday, you'd be damn sure my ass would be in here sending vehicles down the line.

Doesn't make sense.

Man! Sign me up for Fridays! I'll be there!

[C-bus]

go work for a huge company like UPS that doesnt give a shit about their employees since theres so many of them...then come back and tell me that unions arent needed

its give and take...if they treat us well, were going to work...but if im working and one of the supervisors begins to hassle me for no reason, you bet your ass im slowing down to the bare minimum

just because were workers, does not mean they should be allowed to step on us...if you want us to work hard, and respect you, then let us do our job and show us some respect.

im not breaking my balls for a company that is going to treat me like shit - and thats where the union steps in

perfect example: busting ass all day doing a great job, me and the other 2 guys im working with stop for 5mins because one guy has to go to the bathroom (we work as a set so we cant run with just 2)....supervisor comes over telling us we suck and were worthless and were the reason the whole building is behind etc.....

now, keep in mind, we had gotten more done that day than any other set - but since we stopped for a bathroom break, they felt the right to come at us with that shit

that was the last truck we did that day, we slowed down to snail speed - fuck them....you earn respect if you want it, that purple shirt and khakis doesnt mean anything to me - and theres nothing they could do about it because they would have had to go get a union steward to overseer it if they were to reprimand us, and they definitely did not want the union guys coming over with their little book that tells how many bathroom breaks were allowed to have, how many boxes per hour we have to move, etc

A company gets the union that they deserve. Treat people right and they won't organize.

[Steve Butters]

Wanna talk about getting paid?

We're in an economical slump right, many people laid off, no work, no money.

Well, the vehicle plant I'm at is running full capacity and then some to make their high target goal. They are working 5/11s (for those who don't know, that's 5 days a week, 11 hours a day) and since anything over 40 hours is time and a half minimum, there's some big money here. How big? ~$44/hour. So that Friday that finalizes the week and really pays the good overtime, nobody comes to work. Always short handed on Fridays...

If I was working line here and had a job and I could make ~$44/hour just for working an 11 hour Friday, you'd be damn sure my ass would be in here sending vehicles down the line.

Doesn't make sense.

hell ide be there too!

whats nice for me is peak season during the winter...i work part time so anything over 25hrs a week is overtime, but the way its setup is daily for us...so if i work 6 hours on monday, thats 5hrs normal pay and 1 hour time and a half, even if i called off the rest of the week

and yea we run full capacity too....our building was designed to flow 6 sets and we run 9-11 at a time now...they even cancelled the shift before ours and moved the employees from it to our shift to try and cram us in better to save more money

and they started this shady tactic of getting fulltimer to quit/retire.... they took the 8hr full time shifts (some of them - not all) and broke them into two 4 hour shifts, but placed them from 4am-9am and 5pm-9pm, so you have to drive there twice every day

theres no pay cap...so the full timers have been there forever, and make about $30 an hour doing the same stuff new hires do for $8 an hour...so theyre trying to find ways to push out all the full time jobs

[Sidewinder600]

A company gets the union that they deserve. Treat people right and they won't organize.

^^

That, mostly. The problem is once the union's installed, good luck getting them out, regardless of whether the company fixes the problems that initiated the union. Once people start gaming the system they do everything they can to keep that system in place.

[dorifto240]

theres no pay cap...so the full timers have been there forever, and make about $30 an hour doing the same stuff new hires do for $8 an hour...so theyre trying to find ways to push out all the full time jobs

From a strictly business stand point, that makes sense. Morally though, I don't know if that's right.

There's got to be a balance between being competitive in the marketplace, and respecting the workers.

I don't know what that would look like.

[C-bus]

^^

That, mostly. The problem is once the union's installed, good luck getting them out, regardless of whether the company fixes the problems that initiated the union. Once people start gaming the system they do everything they can to keep that system in place.

No question about it. My company's union-avoidance policy is totally structured around solid HR and the easy reporting and removal of ass-hat supervisors who place us in jeopardy.

[dorifto240]

Wanna talk about getting paid?

We're in an economical slump right, many people laid off, no work, no money.

Well, the vehicle plant I'm at is running full capacity and then some to make their high target goal. They are working 5/11s (for those who don't know, that's 5 days a week, 11 hours a day) and since anything over 40 hours is time and a half minimum, there's some big money here. How big? ~$44/hour. So that Friday that finalizes the week and really pays the good overtime, nobody comes to work. Always short handed on Fridays...

If I was working line here and had a job and I could make ~$44/hour just for working an 11 hour Friday, you'd be damn sure my ass would be in here sending vehicles down the line.

Doesn't make sense.

Seriously? I'll come in on Fridays for that wage. I need the money.

[Steve Butters]

No question about it. My company's union-avoidance policy is totally structured around solid HR and the easy reporting and removal of ass-hat supervisors who place us in jeopardy.

if HR did their job like that, the unions wouldnt be necessary at all...but too often, the management will stick together and its just the employees who end up suffering

[Steve Butters]

oh...and you guys make more on friday than i make in 2 weeks....i would happily work that - you hiring? lol

[dorifto240]

From it's fiery start, this has settled into a reasonable discussion.

Somebody get us a spot on "State of the Union" and we could solve this whole Union/Non-Union thing right now!

[SpeedTriple44444]

theres no pay cap...so the full timers have been there forever, and make about $30 an hour doing the same stuff new hires do for $8 an hour...so theyre trying to find ways to push out all the full time jobs

I don't want to sound like (more of) an a-hole, but for unskilled labor, how could you expect a company to pay $30 an hour? I'm assuming it's unskilled based on the starting wage, so excuse me if I made a bad assumption.

While I understand incremental pay increases for a loyal employee, it's ridiculous to have to pay someone that much $$ for the same job you could pay $8-$15 / hour. A smart company would let the employee know early on that the max wage for that job was $15 an hour, and no more. If the employee wanted more, he/she would need to look into changing positions.

[SpeedTriple44444]

if HR did their job like that, the unions wouldnt be necessary at all...but too often, the management will stick together and its just the employees who end up suffering

It all depends on where you work. it's not that way everywhere.