CNBC show about Remington 700

[flounder]

so you admit it has a fault. you can't make something fail if is can't actually happen. demonstrating it over and over only proves without a doubt it's a flawed design.

the guy who designed the gun even told remington it would and can fail.

The adjustment screws on the rem trigger are sealed from the factory and it takes heat and a pick to get the sealant off before you can adjust it which also voids the warranty.

If I open the bleeder valve on your brakeline, your gonna loose your brakes. I guess you consider that a flaw also? Are you one of those people that feels everything should be idiot proof. For fucks sake, you need to have some common sense or you will probably break your neck getting a drink from the toilet when the lid falls on you.

[flounder]

How much does the adjustment affect the likelihood of accidental discharge?

I'm trying to equate this to "adjusting" some other product improperly. Like if I rode a motorcycle with 8 psi in the tires, that wouldn't be the tire's fault, even though it's the tire that failed.

I'm ASKING if there's a plausible correlation with the triggers here. I don't know firearms, nor did I see the show - so again, I'm ASKING.

a bad design allows failure, but in some cases poor maintenance is what CAUSES it.

If you adjust the pull weight and sear too much you can easily cause a dangerous situation. I did it on purpose with mine just to see where that point of no return was. When I was testing it, if I closed the bolt, the trigger would fire. Once I re-adjusted it, I could beat the shit out of it and still have no concerns and thats not even with the safety on.

[cOoTeR]

I also like the fact remington is all over youtube trying to discredit the show. and they won't let you comment without approval.

that's like toyota trying to say their gas pedals sticking were because people were pushing it instead of the brake...yeah ok.

and cigarettes don't cause cancer lol. trust us where philip morris.

Um the gas pedals were only sticking when the floor mats were pressing them to the floor awhile back. This last time it turned out that all of the occasions of stuck accelerators were all false. It didn't happen.

I find it funny that all this came out right after the government took a big stake in the American car market. Then none of the accusations could be backed up with evidence.

[fazer1sniper]

I have used a varriant of the 700 for 19 years professionally as an ARMY Sniper and as a Law Enforcent marksman. The Trigger in the Army M24SWS (Sniper Weapon System) WAS adjustible and as student in sniper school were were taught to adjust them to the way we liked. My rifle I carry now is equiped with Remington 40-XB trigger, even more "touchy" than the stock 700 part. In the thousands of rounds I have fired I have had 2 "accidental discharges" of the rifle. Not as much "accidents" as much as a total failure of the "trigger actuator" ei: my dumb ass not being smart or safe. First was as a 19y/o fresh Sniper Grad on a stalk exercise with a chambered, cocked, safety on M24SWS being pulled out of my drag bag. The safe was bumpped to "off" and the trigger bumped something on the bag or the ground and promptly went BOOM! with my hand on the barrel.(good thing it WAS a blank round) This taught me 3 things: 1- either allways haul this stick around with an empty chamber (condition 3) or 2-a chambered round and de-cocked (condition 2).In addition 3-I learned that push-ups, flutter kicks and moutian climbers in full ghillie suit really suck in 90 degree heat. The Second AD was at a range, police training day, firing practice as a lefty. I was NEVER comfortble doing this, but it was the exersize. Range went "hot", I slapped my bolt shut with an open hand, the way I had done thounsands of times, but the differnt angle I slapped it closed at was JUST enough for my middle finger to tap the 40-XB trigger and send a live one down range. Lession: when I'm forced to shoot the old girl lefty, closed fist, not open palm. My point is this, in all the years, countless hours, several countries, dozens of missions and SWAT call outs, the rifle never faild to to what it was made to do. IF THE SAFETY IS OFF AND THE TRIGGER IS ACTIVATED IT FIRES! This is typical NBC anti-gun propaganda, nothing new there.

Edited October 22, 2010 by fazer1sniper

[scottb]

Good input there Fazer

[fazer1sniper]

This is the XB series trigger, but basicly the same as the 700.

If you "open the seals" on the 700 trigger adjustment is the same. The XB-40 is just more smooth and can be set lighter. My trigger is about a 2 and a half pound pull. Now that is "dangerously" light and I WANTED it to be a 2 pound but if I slammed my bold closed too hard it would activate the sear, relesing the striker, sent the firing pin forward and reslut in said "BOOM". I made it as light as I felt safe to bet someone's life on it. Unlike sport shooters or hunters I allways keep in mind that any thing I do or fail to do may be brought up in a court room someday. I trust the 700 & Remington. This rifle has been used to save lives as well as take them for a long time. Like I'm sure the long rang guys on this site will tell you "lighter is better". So you have to find the right ballance between accuricy and safety. The heavy triggers may be safer, but as you are pulling them you feel your body react. You twitch, start to drift off target durring pull, heart beat pulse jumps the cross hair and / or or start running out of O2 and get tunnel vission before the round gets sent. Whats a HEAVY trigger? You guys who have STOCK AR15's... go grab your rifle. Clear it, inspect that the chamber is empty then clear it again. With the bolt forward place the cleared weapon on "fire". Now HANG it on your finger by the trigger mussle down. Most stock AR's have factory triggers that are HEAVIER than the weight of the rifle and the hammer will not drop. Try and make a percise shot with that beast. It's made that way for dumb privates, not for pros.

[flounder]

This is the XB series trigger, but basicly the same as the 700.

If you "open the seals" on the 700 trigger adjustment is the same. The XB-40 is just more smooth and can be set lighter. My trigger is about a 2 and a half pound pull. Now that is "dangerously" light and I WANTED it to be a 2 pound but if I slammed my bold closed too hard it would activate the sear, relesing the striker, sent the firing pin forward and reslut in said "BOOM". I made it as light as I felt safe to bet someone's life on it. Unlike sport shooters or hunters I allways keep in mind that any thing I do or fail to do may be brought up in a court room someday. I trust the 700 & Remington. This rifle has been used to save lives as well as take them for a long time. Like I'm sure the long rang guys on this site will tell you "lighter is better". So you have to find the right ballance between accuricy and safety. The heavy triggers may be safer, but as you are pulling them you feel your body react. You twitch, start to drift off target durring pull, heart beat pulse jumps the cross hair and / or or start running out of O2 and get tunnel vission before the round gets sent. Whats a HEAVY trigger? You guys who have STOCK AR15's... go grab your rifle. Clear it, inspect that the chamber is empty then clear it again. With the bolt forward place the cleared weapon on "fire". Now HANG it on your finger by the trigger mussle down. Most stock AR's have factory triggers that are HEAVIER than the weight of the rifle and the hammer will not drop. Try and make a percise shot with that beast. It's made that way for dumb privates, not for pros.

+1 to what he just said. Most triggers from the factory come set anywhere from 5.5-15 lbs trigger pull. Thats a pain in the ass if you are trying for accuracy. My Xmark pro is now set somewhere between 2.7-3lbs based on the last time I tested it with a guage. The older rem triggers and the 40x series can be adjusted much lighter as well as if you know what you are doing, you can stone the engagement points for a more crisp break. Unfortunately the Xmark engagement parts are not sold metal and are actually a compressed metal powder to make the part so you can really screw it up if you try and stone it.

Practicing safe firearms handling is more important to me than assuming the trigger will function as designed.

[serpentracer]

The adjustment screws on the rem trigger are sealed from the factory and it takes heat and a pick to get the sealant off before you can adjust it which also voids the warranty.

If I open the bleeder valve on your brakeline, your gonna loose your brakes. I guess you consider that a flaw also? Are you one of those people that feels everything should be idiot proof. For fucks sake, you need to have some common sense or you will probably break your neck getting a drink from the toilet when the lid falls on you.

your analogy is completely bass acwards. it's not even close to being the same.

the bleeder valve is part of a design that is regularly opened to maintain/service the system. the factory doesn't put a sealant over it to prevent the user from accessing it.

you did shotty work. people aren't removing the sealant and adjusting the triggers.

that's like saying all the broken suzuki frames are from miss use. or lets say your brake lines keep bursting open. and you are not the only person that it happened to. but the brake line company says you must be installing it wrong or using the wrong fluid.

which you know is bullshit because that can't cause that.

you are the one that lacks common sense.

Edited October 22, 2010 by serpentracer

[flounder]

Its an adjustable, servicable trigger smart guy! Just like you can adjust how tight your brakes are as well as service them. Its not designed to be retard proof. Its designed to be adjustable and serviceable and therefor can be adjusted to a point of being unsafe just like anything else.

Sit back and actually try and think outside of your box for a minute.

[serpentracer]

Um the gas pedals were only sticking when the floor mats were pressing them to the floor awhile back. This last time it turned out that all of the occasions of stuck accelerators were all false. It didn't happen.

I find it funny that all this came out right after the government took a big stake in the American car market. Then none of the accusations could be backed up with evidence.

I have some ocean front property in arizona for sale. you interested?

[serpentracer]

Its an adjustable, servicable trigger smart guy! Just like you can adjust how tight your brakes are as well as service them. Its not designed to be retard proof. Its designed to be adjustable and serviceable and therefor can be adjusted to a point of being unsafe just like anything else.

Sit back and actually try and think outside of your box for a minute.

you really think everyone that has experienced the issue has "adjusted" it themselves?

or one that's been used for a few years got to the point it would randomly fire..which would be the lack of maintenance? that's a piss poor design. it should be able to handle that abuse without failing. you don't see other guns with these kinds of accusations

a fucking razor sharp sword is safer than that trigger assembly.

what you are implying is like someone drilling a bunch of holes in a frame of their bike and suing the manufacture when it breaks. but in this case people aren't modifying or adjusting the trigger pull (suposedly)

Edited October 22, 2010 by serpentracer

[flounder]

you really think everyone that has experienced the issue has "adjusted" it themselves?

or one that's been used for a few years got to the point it would randomly fire..which would be the lack of maintenance? that's a piss poor design. it should be able to handle that abuse without failing. you don't see other guns with these kinds of accusations

a fucking razor sharp sword is safer than that trigger assembly.

what you are implying is like someone drilling a bunch of holes in a frame of their bike and suing the manufacture when it breaks.

Do you really think that all of these people didnt adjust it themselves? I find it funny that they show "police snipers" who have the skill to adjust it and yet have issues. Kinda weird huh. As far as service goes, how are you not able to make the correlation that devices require service. If you dont maintain your oil, brakes, etc, you will eventually have problems, I think you can at least agree on that. Why do you think a trigger should be bullet proof for its entire lifespan? Come on man, Just think about it. Its a piece of equipment designed to be adjustable and serviceable and therefore requires that.

If you cant understand that then there is no reason to waste anymore time talking to you about it. I bet you service the hell out of your track bike but yet you expect to be able to toss your guns around in your car, the field, etc, and expect them to be tip top all the time no matter what beating they take or environmental conditions they are subjected to. Do you even own any Rem 700's? because if so I would be more then willing to take them off your hands. Ill trade you even up 1 razor sharp sword as you suggest for each 700 you have.

[fusion]

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/Texas-Defective-Remington700.php

[cOoTeR]

I have some ocean front property in arizona for sale. you interested?

That the best you got George Strait? Pulling from a country western love song? Your the one believing that a guy who is behind in his payments can take his prius onto the California highway and have the throttle get stuck wide open. The car is topped out doing "90mph" and he needs the highway patrol to stop him. If you'll buy that I'll throw the golden gate in free.

First off I drive the same car everyday. The top speed is 107mph not 90. Pressing the brake with the throttle pinned shuts the car off unless you are only slightly pressing the brakes. Shifting from drive to reverse or neutral while the car is moving will put the car in neutral. Pressing the button to put the car in park or turn it off will automatically put the car in neutral. Hitting the parking brake will slow the vehicle to a crawl. So your saying all of these systems failed and can't be replicated by anyone? It most only happen on the cars that are owned by unemployed people who can't afford them anymore. If you believe that you must be a sheep blindly following what your told. You should be careful around here on the forum there's a lot of talk of fucking sheep.

You can make any gun unsafe by messing with it. If you do that's your fault not the gun company's. Working in law enforcement I know multiple people that are trained long range tactical shooters. (snipers). All of which swear by the 700. They put their lives, my coworkers lives and my life on that gun. They would not do that with a weapon they felt was unsafe.

[fazer1sniper]

for the record, at Remington armorer school we set and adjust these triggers. As far as it being unsafe, B.S. If the sear sets full on the striker, pound of pull is not relevent. Impact and shock won't dischage the rifle. Trigger pull does. Would it be better to have military and law enforcent snipers fighting the trigger and blowing shots? Im not saying every deer hunter need a 3 pound trigger on his 700, but damn, Trust me, there is a certain level of pressure involved on a real world shot. If you send it or not. If my finger even goes in the trigger guard it's game time. For anyone to imply that the benchmark sniper rifle platform is somehow a death trap is uninformed crap. The weapon is sound and as safe as the opperator and his care of his equipment. Dirt and debis in the sear will effect safety, solution: maintain the rifle. I think the bigger gripe on the 700 is it's extractor. That is a failure I have had.

[r1crusher]

what you are implying is like someone drilling a bunch of holes in a frame of their bike and suing the manufacture when it breaks. but in this case people aren't modifying or adjusting the trigger pull (suposedly)

You mean you shouldn't do this:

I personally would like to see what the actual number of incidents were where users DID and DID NOT modify their trigger adjustments.

Fish says that mis-adjustments and lack of proper maintenance will cause these issues, Serp thinks it could happen to any of them right from the factory. We will never know unless there is some empirical proof that's gathered only by a report of some kind....which I don't think we'll ever see.

But again, I'm having to side with the fish still on this one.

Edited October 22, 2010 by r1crusher

[flounder]

Im not saying they are perfect by any means and almost every major manufacturer has sent out a well known quality product at some point that has had defects at one time or another. The fact is that its a piece of equipment that should be respected, serviced, and maintained and without that happening there are potential consequences. Be smart, handle firearms safely, and rely on yourself instead of someone or something else and you will be ahead of the game. Yes accidents happen and defects occur in products but ultimately its a numbers game. 10 million rifles vs 70 (or whatever the # is ) "accused" problems and you do the math. Your chances of winning the lottery, getting hit by lightning or getting in a car accident are higher. People just need to be smart and accept responsibility for their own actions. This country has gone to hell because of people trying to place all blame on someone or something else and not taking responsibility for their own stupidity or actions.

Those are my thoughts on whats wrong the majority of the country today and they wont be changing anytime soon.

[fusion]

Now I agree considering the numbers of 700's (5 million) there are out there, the number of reported incidents (thousands), injuries (~100) and deaths (~24) seems low, but...

- you have to consider these rifles are handled less often than: cars are driven, lottery tickets are bought, sheep are manhandled by kawikid.

and

- Remington has already admitted in the past to a problem with the trigger mechanism.

It's still on my list as my "starter" long distance rifle.

[John]

What part of "never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot" don't people understand.

dont forget:

"keep your god damned booger picker off the bang button until you're ready to make it go bang"

[fazer1sniper]

dont forget:

"keep your god damned booger picker off the bang button until you're ready to make it go bang"

And THAT is what it's all 'bout.

Remember this HERO?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU

Edited October 23, 2010 by fazer1sniper