Take a stab at fixing the federal budget

[Casper]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html

Here's what I would do with those choices:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=zp1rh010

PS: This was shamelessly stolen from Pauly.

[Disclaimer]

I thought I posted this on here, but I must've just put it on my other forum.

I found what I originally put in back in the day...

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=wk2165r1

[Casper]

I thought I posted this on here, but I must've just put it on my other forum.

I found what I originally put in back in the day...

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=wk2165r1

Fuck you and your taxes. Move to England. With all due regard of course.

[Disclaimer]

I'm sorry, I'm sure they all affect you with your six figure income and $3.5M inheritence.

Besides the majority of my choices were value-"Bang for your buck"-type choices, not ideological -- call me a liberal all you want, but I'm really an economist, with some morals.

Edited January 27, 2011 by JRMMiii

[Casper]

I'm sorry, I'm sure they all affect you with your six figure income and $3.5M inheritence.

Besides the majority of my choices were value-"Bang for your buck"-type choices, not ideological -- call me a liberal all you want, but I'm really an economist, with some morals.

I believe in equal for everyone. If you tax me 25%, you better tax the rich and the poor the same 25%. No less for the poor and more for the rich shit. Equality. That makes me an American.

[Disclaimer]

I believe in equal for everyone. If you tax me 25%, you better tax the rich and the poor the same 25%. No less for the poor and more for the rich shit. Equality. That makes me an American.

Equality. That's something a communist would strive for.

[Casper]

Equality. That's something a communist would strive for.

Says the man who wants to steal money from the rich to fund welfare programs for the poor.

[Disclaimer]

How is it "stealing"? I guess I don't get why you're such a proponent for the wealthy, are you wealthy? Do you think you'll ever be weathy one day? Why would taxes on the top 2% of Americans ever affect you?

If "Trickle Down" economics ever worked, the wage gap and income inequality wouldn't be the largest it's been in history for the US. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. People bitch and moan about the lobbyists and how people with money are the only ones that get their voice heard, yet people CONTINUE to support that exact system and I can't figure out why Is it because one day they hope to be rich? They hope they'll end up in that elitist class somehow, someday? Yea, keep believing that "if you just work hard" you'll be rewarded.

That's how organized religion works too.

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ent/manhattan_diary/americas-middle-class-is-dying-and-the-stats-prove-it-99180624.html

Just a lil snippet for you

• 61 percent of Americans 'always or usually' live paycheck to

paycheck, which was up from 49 percent in 2008 and 43 percent in 2007.

• A staggering 43 percent of Americans have less than $10,000

saved up for retirement.

• More than 40 percent of Americans who actually are employed

are now working in service jobs, which are often very low paying.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/149531/the_class_war_launched_by_america%27s_wealthiest_is_getting_more_savage/?page=entire

http://crooksandliars.com/brad-reed/cl-opening-bell-need-alternative-economi

Edited January 27, 2011 by JRMMiii

[Casper]

How is it "stealing"? I guess I don't get why you're such a proponent for the wealthy, are you wealthy? Do you think you'll ever be weathy one day? Why would taxes on the top 2% of Americans ever affect you?

If "Trickle Down" economics ever worked, the wage gap and income inequality wouldn't be the largest it's been in history for the US. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. People bitch and moan about the lobbyists and how people with money are the only ones that get their voice heard, yet people CONTINUE to support that exact system and I can't figure out why Is it because one day they hope to be rich? They hope they'll end up in that elitist class somehow, someday? Yea, keep believing that "if you just work hard" you'll be rewarded.

That's how organized religion works too.

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ent/manhattan_diary/americas-middle-class-is-dying-and-the-stats-prove-it-99180624.html

Just a lil snippet for you

http://www.alternet.org/economy/149531/the_class_war_launched_by_america%27s_wealthiest_is_getting_more_savage/?page=entire

So why do you think it's okay to punish the rich for being rich? Justify it. Tell me why it's okay to take a person's money to give to someone else.

If I took $10 from you without giving you a choice and gave it to a bum, that'd be me stealing from you.

Fixing the existing tax code is much more important. Flat tax. Drastically reduce the amount of deductions. Close the loopholes. Fix the problem, don't just raise taxes.

[Cdubyah]

JRMMiii the 21st century robin of the hood

[shittygsxr]

How is it "stealing"? I guess I don't get why you're such a proponent for the wealthy, are you wealthy? Do you think you'll ever be weathy one day? Why would taxes on the top 2% of Americans ever affect you?

If "Trickle Down" economics ever worked, the wage gap and income inequality wouldn't be the largest it's been in history for the US. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. People bitch and moan about the lobbyists and how people with money are the only ones that get their voice heard, yet people CONTINUE to support that exact system and I can't figure out why Is it because one day they hope to be rich? They hope they'll end up in that elitist class somehow, someday? Yea, keep believing that "if you just work hard" you'll be rewarded.

That's how organized religion works too.

http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ent/manhattan_diary/americas-middle-class-is-dying-and-the-stats-prove-it-99180624.html

Just a lil snippet for you

http://www.alternet.org/economy/149531/the_class_war_launched_by_america%27s_wealthiest_is_getting_more_savage/?page=entire

http://crooksandliars.com/brad-reed/cl-opening-bell-need-alternative-economi

How do the poor get poorer? I understand how the rich get richer. Americans live paycheck to paycheck because their priorities are fucked up.

I will be in lorain this weekend if you would like to drive around the projects we can count the number of direct tv dishes that are on the section 8 houses.

Ben and I were talking yesterday,and today I realized that the ones that are yelling the loudest about what the poor do not deserve seem to have come from the poorest families.

Edited January 27, 2011 by shittygsxr

[Disclaimer]

If I had $100,000 in my pocket and you took $10, I probably wouldn't miss it.

If I had $15 in my pocket and you took $10, then we might have an issue.

[Casper]

If I had $100,000 in my pocket and you took $10, I probably wouldn't miss it.

If I had $15 in my pocket and you took $10, then we might have an issue.

It's theft either way you look at it, regardless of if you'd miss it or not. By your logic, it's completely ok to shoplift. Walmart has probably in the millions of DVDs. You may only have 20. So it's totally cool to steal some from them. They probably won't miss them.

For the record, I fucking hate Walmart. But I still wouldn't steal from them.

[shittygsxr]

If I had $100,000 in my pocket and you took $10, I probably wouldn't miss it.

If I had $15 in my pocket and you took $10, then we might have an issue.

so if I have 100,000 does that mean its ok to take my money?

[Disclaimer]

How do the poor get poorer? I understand how the rich get richer. American live paycheck to paycheck because their priorities are fucked up.

I will be in lorain this weekend if you would like to drive around the projects we can count the number of direct tv dishes that are on the section 8 houses.

Remember when you posted that you'd advocate people blowing their money on stupid sh*t that they don't have because it makes you relatively richer. Just because the poor might live better than they did 10 years ago, doesn't mean the relativism didn't increase as well.

It may've been a poor choice of words on my part though -- the general idea is the income/wage gap has increased. But sure, if you wanna haul me around in your baller mobile, I'm up for a ride-along through lorain. I lived in Flint, MI for 4 years, there's nothing in Lorain that I haven't seen before.

[Disclaimer]

It's theft either way you look at it, regardless of if you'd miss it or not. By your logic, it's completely ok to shoplift. Walmart has probably in the millions of DVDs. You may only have 20. So it's totally cool to steal some from them. They probably won't miss them.

For the record, I fucking hate Walmart. But I still wouldn't steal from them.

I agree, but my point / "logic" was missed. I was just pointing out that it's relative, not that it's ok. Why would you tax poor people the same as rich people only to turn right back around and hand then back the money you just taxed them? Why not just reduce their tax rate and eliminate the bureaucracy of that extra step? I thought the goal was to eliminate gov't where possible?

[Casper]

I agree, but my point / "logic" was missed. I was just pointing out that it's relative, not that it's ok. Why would you tax poor people the same as rich people only to turn right back around and hand then back the money you just taxed them? Why not just reduce their tax rate and eliminate the bureaucracy of that extra step? I thought the goal was to eliminate gov't where possible?

End of discussion. You agree it isn't okay. So stop preaching it. My point and logic; it's not okay to steal. If you're going to tax people, tax them equally. Tax breaks for those under the poverty level is fine in my book. A refund of the XX% in it's entirety if your annual income is under XX amount at the end of the year. That wasn't the discussion here though. You want to tax the rich because it doesn't effect you. You want to steal from people. But then you yourself say it isn't okay. So...........

[shittygsxr]

Remember when you posted that you'd advocate people blowing their money on stupid sh*t that they don't have because it makes you relatively richer. Just because the poor might live better than they did 10 years ago, doesn't mean the relativism didn't increase as well.

It may've been a poor choice of words on my part though -- the general idea is the income/wage gap has increased. But sure, if you wanna haul me around in your baller mobile, I'm up for a ride-along through lorain. I lived in Flint, MI for 4 years, there's nothing in Lorain that I haven't seen before.

I have been to the legendary flint michigan several times and it definitely did not make me more compassionate for the less fortunate.

Yes I still do advocate people pissing away "their" money not government issued money. In 26 months I will be in a new tax bracket and I would enjoy not getting raped come tax time.

[Disclaimer]

End of discussion. You agree it isn't okay. So stop preaching it. My point and logic; it's not okay to steal. If you're going to tax people, tax them equally.

How is that "end of discussion"? By your logic, all taxes are "stealing" so...fine, then we should pay ZERO taxes - f*(k everyone else. Everyone can just fend for themselves on EVERYTHING.

[mello dude]

That's some interesting stuff. Finally after clicking enuff boxes, I got it done.

Back to some reality.

This years deficit - 1.5 trillion.

National debt around 14 trillion.

Annual interest payment around 250 billion (correct me here if you know the exact number) - thats money pissed into the wind.

Projection of interest payment with current rate of deficit for 2019 ---- 800 billion

Approximate amount of deficit financed by the Chinese - 50%

Amount proposed savings over 5 year by Obama - 400 billion.

Is this an acceptable situation? Will it be sustainable? ---- tic tic tic

Edited January 27, 2011 by mello dude

[Steve Butters]

I believe in equal for everyone. If you tax me 25%, you better tax the rich and the poor the same 25%. No less for the poor and more for the rich shit. Equality. That makes me an American.

If I had $100,000 in my pocket and you took $10, I probably wouldn't miss it.

If I had $15 in my pocket and you took $10, then we might have an issue.

so..... $10 is 67% of $15....$10 is .01% of 100k

how does your example fit bens?

shouldnt it say

If I had $100,000 in my pocket and you took .01% ($10), I probably wouldn't miss it.

If I had $15 in my pocket and you took .01% (rounds up to a penny), then I still wouldnt miss it.

OR

If I had $100,000 in my pocket and you took 67% ($67,000), then we might have an issue.

If I had $15 in my pocket and you took 67% ($10), then we still might have an issue.

Ben was saying 25% for everybody, your example is .01% for the rich, and 67% for the poor....using your $10 example

Edited January 27, 2011 by Steve Butters

[shittygsxr]

so..... $10 is 67% of $15....$10 is .01%

how does your example fit bens?

shouldnt it say

If I had $100,000 in my pocket and you took .01% ($10), I probably wouldn't miss it.

If I had $15 in my pocket and you took .01% (rounds up to a penny), then I still wouldnt miss it.

OR

If I had $100,000 in my pocket and you took 67% ($67,000), then we might have an issue.

If I had $15 in my pocket and you took 67% ($10), then we still might have an issue.

Ben was saying 25% for everybody, your example is .01% for the rich, and 67% for the poor....using your $10 example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY-03vYYAjA

[Steve Butters]

I have been to the legendary flint michigan several times and it definitely did not make me more compassionate for the less fortunate.

Yes I still do advocate people pissing away "their" money not government issued money. In 26 months I will be in a new tax bracket and I would enjoy not getting raped come tax time.

be careful jumping brackets man! my moms ex-bf jumped up a bracket and owed $75k at tax time! just try and prepare yourself for the higher bracket so the time doesnt come around and you realize youre broke lol...(i dont know how much you make, or how big of a "jump" youre making...so 75k may be extreme in your situation)

[Disclaimer]

This boils down to another ideological difference, it's just that simple -- there's evidence to support both sides (yea, it's wiki, but it has cites)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax

I, as I stated, side with the majority of economists.

History of intellectual debate

The idea of a progressive tax has garnered support from macro economists and political scientists of many different ideologies - ranging from Adam Smith to Karl Marx, although there are differences of opinion about the optimal level of progressivity. Some economists[14] trace the origin of modern progressive taxation to Adam Smith, who wrote in The Wealth of Nations:

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

[15]

The French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of 1789 agrees:

A common contribution is essential for the maintenance of the public forces and for the cost of administration. This should be equitably distributed among all the citizens in proportion to their means.

[16]

In most western European countries and the United States, advocates of progressive taxation tend to be found among the majority of economists and social scientists, many of whom believe that completely proportional taxation is not a possibility.[17][18] In the U.S., an overwhelming majority of economists (81%) support progressive taxation.[17][18]

So, while you can argue the "stealing" aspect, it's not really analogous to that when you consider the social, economic, and political ramifications of a flat tax.

[Steve Butters]

oh...i see the Father of Communism supported progressive taxation.