Senate Bill 5

[chevysoldier]

Most people complain about there not being enough periods in someone's reply...this is a change.

[Casper]

YouTube - Willie teaching french

Buwahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fireman_343]

I've been reading through this but haven't commented because I'm not really familiar with this bill.

First you stated that the unions would be abolished, numerous time. You even went through an English lesson so everyone would know. Now you say they won't be abolished. It sounds like to me you are not familiar with this bill and are only going off of what other people have told you. I was really wanting to side with you on this until you flipped about the unions. Now I am lead to believe you don't know how this will really change things.

I'm not trying to insult you or be a jerk. I have great respect for our firefighters. You are part of a different breed to run into a fire when everyone else is running out.

Bills anymore are written is some language that no one seems to understand then everyone "thinks" they know what's going basing it only on hearsay.

You are somewhat right.. I don't know "enough" about the bill, but I do know how it will affect me at my work place. Since I'm a State Employee and a firefighter (for the state.. kinda like the State Troopers), I was getting a little mixed up on some of the "wording" and how it will affect city firefighters differently then me. As far as flipping on the unions going away, it will in some shops for the state, since they won't have a back to stand on. I just learned about the differance between me and a city firefighter, I think I'm more screwed then them just because they will not see my "title" as a firefighter, but just that I'm a state employee.

Sorry for the few somewhat misleading posts, but I was not going off what others told me, but what I was misreading in the vague words in the bill. It wasn't until I asked one of the guys at my work what the differance is and if our union will go away.

Thanks for your support and being polite about it!

[Tonik]

The problem isn't really the pay that the unions have created. When times are good and the private sector is getting raises bigger than COLA and bonuses public employee's look like idiots. When times are bad like they are now they look like geniuses. You need to put it in perspective over time. Not just the last three or four years.

The problem isn't that we need 'merit' raises for those that do good. Merit pay for teachers in states out west that do it have not accomplished a darn thing. We need a simple system where people that do good get to keep their job. And those that don't get to be fired. And that is the problem that unions have created. Blanket union protection for workers that do not do well is the issue that needs to be fixed, and probably the only issue that needs to be fixed.

This bill is overkill. The motorcycle swung too far left under control of the unions. Now this bill is going to swing it too far right. Sooner or later we are going to swing so far one way or the other that we are going to end up in the ditch.

Does it really matter which side of the road we crash on? We are still screwed.

No offense folks, but pretty much everyone in this thread needs to moderate, and be a little less black and white about the issue. You all sound like Dems and Repubs in the House. It's one way or the other...no compromise or middle ground. The answer that works is in the middle. Not in the extreme of the way it is now...or in the extreme that this bill will create.

But that will never happen. Politicians make a career off the extremes. They keep their base wound up with the fear of what the other side is going to do...so you support them and vote for them.

[Disclaimer]

We need to change and be more moderate of a system that's been around for decades? Its the system that's all of a sudden too liberal or conservative? We need to re-compromise now because the states can't honor the contracts they've agreed upon?

[gearman]

We've been subjected to the constant drone of anti-union rhetoric for many years. At first the target was mainly blue collar workers, but it was only a matter of time until they turned their attention toward those who protect and educate us. How sad that working class Americans subscribe to the premise that the beating down of fellow workers will somehow elevate their status. Enjoy the illusion...they'll be along for you soon.

[C-bus]

Management always gets the union it deserves.

[DAC]

We need to change and be more moderate of a system that's been around for decades? Its the system that's all of a sudden too liberal or conservative? We need to re-compromise now because the states can't honor the contracts they've agreed upon?

This comment would make sense if the system had stayed the same. Not sure that's true. In reality, or at least perception, is that government jobs once provided pay and benefits less than the private sector in exchange for almost airtight job security. There might have been grumbling about this security in bad times (say the 70's) but there was general recognition that a person could make more money in the private sector.

Now, average pay of government workers is at or above average pay of the taxpayers. Benefits of government workers is WAY above average. This is the general sense from various published media. I can't quote exact figures and I'm sure there'll be tons of studies/research to support either side.

So, people are pissed. Most of the private folks have no pension or defined benefit plans. They've watched their 401(k) take a massive hit (though now recovering). On top of that, states have to balance budgets that have also shrunk.

Staffing in the public sector must be rational and pay should be market based. If, for example, pay and benefits for teaching is cut below a market level, no one will enter or stay in that profession. They'll paint houses instead. If the state or school districts can't attract worthwhile candidates for the pay offered, it'll have to go up. But we're nowhere near that point.

The biggest risk in all of this is the municipal bond market - believe it or not. Serious people are talking about allowing states to go bankrupt. If that happens, stuff like this bill will become instantly irrelevant since, in bankruptcy, union contracts and pension obligations effectively go up in smoke. The states, and possibly the US government would no longer be able to access financial markets and that's very, very bad.

Over the years, the pendulum has swung too far one way. It's gaining a lot of momentum going the other way now. It'd be nice if it settled in the middle soon, but I don't think it's gonna work out that way.

[fusion]

Now, average pay of government workers is at or above average pay of the taxpayers. Benefits of government workers is WAY above average. This is the general sense from various published media. I can't quote exact figures and I'm sure there'll be tons of studies/research to support either side.

So you don't actually know. You're just "sure" there's evidence to support both sides of such a broad brush.

So, people are pissed. Most of the private folks have no pension or defined benefit plans. They've watched their 401(k) take a massive hit (though now recovering). On top of that, states have to balance budgets that have also shrunk.

Large numbers of us did and do just fine with our 401(k)'s, those of us smart enough to make adjustments with the markets as needed. If you didn't, tough shit.

Private folks can easily get pensions and benefit plans, it's up to YOU to discuss that with you're employer. If you haven't, too bad. That's a YOU problem not a market problem.

States budgets are more affected by poor budgeting than over paid public sector folk.

[fazer1sniper]

Management always gets the union it deserves.

I LIKE THAT!

Wish it worked out that way.

I, like most LEO, am VERRY conservitive. I've been i this job for 11 years and active military before that. I grew up in the family business where I was fourth generation well driller. A roughneck on a drill crew is a bitch job, did it from the time I was 12. I think I partly joined the Airborne to get out of the mud and have a safer job. That and ODNR and EPA were killing the drilling industry in America through regulation. Somedays, well alot of days, I wish I stayed in active Army. A combanation of a back injury that took my jump status and the Clinton era military made me not re-up. The Lordstown GM Plant wasnt hiring former Special Ops Snipers so I joined the Sheriff's Office. From minute 1 I hated the union. The thought of some doughnut scarfing slob, who cant rundown a suspect, can't shoot to save his life or anyone elses, getter better pay and better tratmant then someone with my background rubbed me the wrong way. But I stuck it out, did 7 years in a tactical Unit, Patrol, about every job there. Not one of the things that make me keep going in a real shitty job is knowing that I get a decent retirement, good medical coverage, and even if the guys in charge are a bunch of good old boys with years in their political party can screw with me, but cant fire me with out cause. The FOP as a union kinda sucks. We can't strike if treated poorly, can't walk out, can't go to the media over mistreatment or unsafe working conditions... Eh, screw it. A long time ago, on a bad day, beat up, tired, no sleep, little food and water, I had a melt down. Dropped my ruck and rifle, fell to my ass and said "F*ck this. Civilians don't gotta deal with this sh*t!" Had a Staff Sergeant attention at that point, expecting a boot to the head, he did me one better.. he said " I hear ya. We out here dealing with this crap all the time, we don't get sickdays, hours suck, pay sucks, we stand around in our best uniforms in the rain for hours and get f*cked with when we don't look good. Any civilian in their right mind would EVER do what we do, every day. THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED SERVICE! Now get on your F*CKING FEED AND DRIVE ON." 20 years ago I got up and drove on, still doing it. I vote coservitive and understand where the state is comming from. But this bill is giving local government a great tool to f*ck with their people. These governments are sometimes less ethical and more stupid than alot of people think. When was the last time you saw adminisrative jobs laid off before cops & firemen? I agree with the idea behind the bill, but not how it's written. I have to say thumbs down on this one, and I'm more right wing than Atilla the Hun.

[cOoTeR]

I was at the state house Tuesday while the proponents got to testify their thoughts. Most of them said they were for unions they just wanted more power in negotiating. Most of the issues I heard them complain about were things they could have negotiated for but didn't. My advice is if this passes buy a lot of guns + ammo, a firehose and learn as much medical stuff you can. I know myself and other civil service employees are not going to deal with the stress of our jobs with a significant decrease in pay or increase in health costs. All your going to be left with is people with less quality and integrity to save your butt when you need it.

Edited February 19, 2011 by cOoTeR
typo

[C-bus]

I LIKE THAT!

Wish it worked out that way.

I, like most LEO, am VERRY conservitive. I've been i this job for 11 years and active military before that. I grew up in the family business where I was fourth generation well driller. A roughneck on a drill crew is a bitch job, did it from the time I was 12. I think I partly joined the Airborne to get out of the mud and have a safer job. That and ODNR and EPA were killing the drilling industry in America through regulation. Somedays, well alot of days, I wish I stayed in active Army. A combanation of a back injury that took my jump status and the Clinton era military made me not re-up. The Lordstown GM Plant wasnt hiring former Special Ops Snipers so I joined the Sheriff's Office. From minute 1 I hated the union. The thought of some doughnut scarfing slob, who cant rundown a suspect, can't shoot to save his life or anyone elses, getter better pay and better tratmant then someone with my background rubbed me the wrong way. But I stuck it out, did 7 years in a tactical Unit, Patrol, about every job there. Not one of the things that make me keep going in a real shitty job is knowing that I get a decent retirement, good medical coverage, and even if the guys in charge are a bunch of good old boys with years in their political party can screw with me, but cant fire me with out cause. The FOP as a union kinda sucks. We can't strike if treated poorly, can't walk out, can't go to the media over mistreatment or unsafe working conditions... Eh, screw it. A long time ago, on a bad day, beat up, tired, no sleep, little food and water, I had a melt down. Dropped my ruck and rifle, fell to my ass and said "F*ck this. Civilians don't gotta deal with this sh*t!" Had a Staff Sergeant attention at that point, expecting a boot to the head, he did me one better.. he said " I hear ya. We out here dealing with this crap all the time, we don't get sickdays, hours suck, pay sucks, we stand around in our best uniforms in the rain for hours and get f*cked with when we don't look good. Any civilian in their right mind would EVER do what we do, every day. THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED SERVICE! Now get on your F*CKING FEED AND DRIVE ON." 20 years ago I got up and drove on, still doing it. I vote coservitive and understand where the state is comming from. But this bill is giving local government a great tool to f*ck with their people. These governments are sometimes less ethical and more stupid than alot of people think. When was the last time you saw adminisrative jobs laid off before cops & firemen? I agree with the idea behind the bill, but not how it's written. I have to say thumbs down on this one, and I'm more right wing than Atilla the Hun.

Thank you for that. Rep to you when I'm allowed to again.

[chevysoldier]

I think I partly joined the Airborne to get out of the mud and have a safer job.

That says a lot about being on a drill crew lol.

Dropped my ruck and rifle, fell to my ass and said "F*ck this. Civilians don't gotta deal with this sh*t!" Had a Staff Sergeant attention at that point, expecting a boot to the head, he did me one better.. he said " I hear ya. We out here dealing with this crap all the time, we don't get sickdays, hours suck, pay sucks, we stand around in our best uniforms in the rain for hours and get f*cked with when we don't look good. Any civilian in their right mind would EVER do what we do, every day. THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED SERVICE! Now get on your F*CKING FEET AND DRIVE ON."

That hits home with me. Repped.

[Disclaimer]

Interesting how some adamant conservatives on here are jumping off the conservo-bandwagon when it affects them.

Jussayin'.

I'd make a crack about how the only thing that kept fazer1sniper from being a socialist was the fact that he carried an M16 and not an AK47, but I'm too skeerd.

Just to this AM

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/day_in_the_life_of_joe_middle-.html

[C-bus]

I don't want to see teachers, police, or firefighters/emergency workers lose pay or benefits. But too many of you are under the illusion that the union gives a shit about you. Dues, my friends.... they care about dues. Have any of you been at the table? In every one of my experiences at "the table" with the SEIU, they don't ask first for pay increases, benefits improvements, vacation time.... nope, they first demand the ability to automatically deduct dues from your paychecks instead of you having to consciously write them a check each pay. Is this bill right? After reading the debates, I am beginning to see the opposition's points. Someone has to give up something to make the Ohio fiscally sound. Any volunteers?

[Disclaimer]

No more tax cuts for those making > $250k year would be a good start. Trickle down economics DOES NOT WORK. If you believe that, I have some 'trickle-down' right here for you... on your face.

[C-bus]

How about no more "earned income tax credits" where we refund taxes that were not paid, for simply shitting out kids you can't afford to feed? Personally, I'd start there.

[DAC]

So you don't actually know. You're just "sure" there's evidence to support both sides of such a broad brush.

Large numbers of us did and do just fine with our 401(k)'s, those of us smart enough to make adjustments with the markets as needed. If you didn't, tough shit.

Private folks can easily get pensions and benefit plans, it's up to YOU to discuss that with you're employer. If you haven't, too bad. That's a YOU problem not a market problem.

States budgets are more affected by poor budgeting than over paid public sector folk.

Wow. Pegging the rancor meter there Fuse-on.

FTR:

- I got family in public-sector unions, active and retired, that are raking it in or will soon.

- My 401(k) is fine - thanks for your, uh, concern.

- I have a pension at work, too.

So this isn't a bitch about my situation or my family's.

Private sector folks can easily get pensions? That's great - once they get a JOB first. Then they count themselves lucky and don't go asking for more stuff from boss man.

[cg2112]

If we're going to get rid of collective bargaining and statutory salary increases, can we legislate a halt on inflation and the cost of living?

Merit increases are great. I think that employees who work harder should get bigger raises. But statutory increases are adjustments for the cost of living, which increases yearly.

Really, this is just a tactic to pit workers against each other. Pit private sector workers against state workers who belong to unions. Make workers forget that wealth belongs to a very small portion of the population, and instead make them believe that we're wasting money paying with collective bargaining agreements (and thus benefits) for state workers, and further convince them that taxes are out of control (even though they have gotten a tax cut over the last couple of years). And, ultimately, convince them to vote Republican. Neat.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/the-republican-strategy_b_825206.html

[ReconRat]

Nothing is forever. I'm pretty sure that everyone working for a state wage will be effected in one way or the other. Both union and non-union. Or already has been whacked. It's pretty much going to be either layoffs or cuts. Pick one.

And the private sector also, and even the self employed small business owners are suffering. And have been for a few years already. It's not over yet. This is just part of a bigger picture. And no, the end isn't in sight yet.

[fusion]

Wow. Pegging the rancor meter there Fuse-on.

FTR:

- I got family in public-sector unions, active and retired, that are raking it in or will soon.

- My 401(k) is fine - thanks for your, uh, concern.

- I have a pension at work, too.

So this isn't a bitch about my situation or my family's.

Private sector folks can easily get pensions? That's great - once they get a JOB first. Then they count themselves lucky and don't go asking for more stuff from boss man.

Hey you're the one that brought up the bullshit and used a broad brush to paint it with.

Now you want to say can "easily" get pensions, way to add a qualifier. You get what you go after or do you want some organization to go fight those battles for you?

Edited February 19, 2011 by fusion

[drc32-0]

Interesting how some adamant conservatives on here are jumping off the conservo-bandwagon when it affects them.

No shit!

They have been happily standing by as the republican party and non-union bosses has been raping private sector unions and working people for three decades.Did you really think you could keep your decent jobs as the tax base was decimated?

Remember doing away with prevailing wage on schools so the non-union bosses could rip off their employees and the state?Thanks for all the help then teachers,firemen and police...I'll be sure to give you the same help now.

[Jst2fst]

I'm happy from my union job that I do. By getting rid of it is only going to cause more problems which we need no more of.

[bigd]

For any of you guys who haven't heard much about this guy, or heard any of his interviews, it's like a breath of fresh air. Can we please spread some of the "Chris Christie" fiscal responsibility around ALL politicians/citizens? (The first vid is especially fun, and somewhat relevant to this discussion)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw0aBkt8CPA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYGvRj8Z8t4

[Disclaimer]

Gov. Chris Christie: The Biggest Sham In American Politics

But Christie assured, he doesn't hate the firefighters and other union employees. He only hates the union leaders:

See one of things that the public sector unions don't understand about my approach in New Jersey is that they think I'm attacking them. I'm attacking the leadership of the union. Because they're greedy and they're selfish and self-interested. The members of that union are being ill-served by the leadership of that union.

Christie did not bother to explain how the greedy union leaders are to blame for the state not making annual payments to the pension fund, for private health insurers jacking up health care costs which squeezes pensions, and for a deregulated Wall Street plunging the economy into a deep recession and damaging pension investments.

Nor did he explain how slashing pension benefits across the board -- hitting both union and nonunion civil servants -- only penalizes those greedy union leaders.

Nor did he acknowledge that these pension issues can be solved without sputtering contempt for union members, but with calm discussions with union members, as Vermont recently accomplished with its teachers union -- trading increased employee contributions now for additional pension benefits later.

But as Chris Christie will tell you, he only speaks the "truth."