Tpoppa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 If you should ever need to use a firearm for self defense, odds are you will wind up in court. Even if you were 100% within your rights. A modified firearm would most likely be a point of contention in court. The instructor in my CCW course actually made a big deal about this.Something to consider...YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggO Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 M&P's are nice. If I found a good deal on one, I'd buy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 I can meet you whenever if I have a day or so notice. I work days but my lunch time is flexible. I'll PM you some pics tonight. It'll come with factory box, couple mags and a blackhawk Serpa 2.Sounds great, my schedule is flexible for the most part and I have most Sundays open for a road trip. I have a five hour class on Saturdays until mid May. If we do this you can keep or sell the holster, I am working with a local company designing a holster for Glocks, that is where I got onto this carry idea.If you should ever need to use a firearm for self defense, odds are you will wind up in court. Even if you were 100% within your rights. A modified firearm would most likely be a point of contention in court. The instructor in my CCW course actually made a big deal about this.Something to consider...YMMV. I have heard this repeated many times but with no real evidence to back it up just anecdotal hearsay. Unless a CCW instructor has a law degree to support his opinion or personal knowledge of this type of prosecution they should preface their statements regarding this matter with a disclaimer of what you are about to hear is just a made up scenario I have heard about on the internet that might be possible but no one really knows. If it is a good shoot then prosecution is not likely so then civil prosecution isn’t possible. If you are in court in a self defense shooting you have more problems to worry about than if you changed your magazine release out for an extended one. In this case I think I will be alright because I plan to make the handgun more friendly by taking away some of its capacity and stippling it will make it safer for everyone because I will hold onto it better so I won’t drop it and hurt someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 It's a great gun, I carry mine everywhere. Did you get all 3 grip sizes with it?All three grips and an extra pin. Ah! So you DID puss out on riding up to get it! I was willing/wanting to but mom really wanted to go since it's been 20 years since she's been up there.i think its a little comical that you have a .45 compact and a fullsize .40 lol...seems a bit backwards to me!but im not hatin', ide take either one as a second gun!I'm carrying the .40 now and leave the .45 at home. The .40 hold 15+1 and the .45c hold 8+1.He has a specific reason.I got into the police academy and since I have a department kind of lined up to get on, I'll need this gun. I have heard this repeated many times but with no real evidence to back it up just anecdotal hearsay. Unless a CCW instructor has a law degree to support his opinion or personal knowledge of this type of prosecution they should preface their statements regarding this matter with a disclaimer of what you are about to hear is just a made up scenario I have heard about on the internet that might be possible but no one really knows. If it is a good shoot then prosecution is not likely so then civil prosecution isn’t possible. If you are in court in a self defense shooting you have more problems to worry about than if you changed your magazine release out for an extended one. In this case I think I will be alright because I plan to make the handgun more friendly by taking away some of its capacity and stippling it will make it safer for everyone because I will hold onto it better so I won’t drop it and hurt someone.Beat me to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawi kid Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Thought we were gonna shoot it yesterday fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 What kind of Barney Fife dept are you getting on that you have to buy your own gun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Thought we were gonna shoot it yesterday fool.I did, just not in Kershockton. Going up there with my mom I didn't have time to swing by your place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawi kid Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Lame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblosser Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) If you should ever need to use a firearm for self defense, odds are you will wind up in court. Even if you were 100% within your rights. A modified firearm would most likely be a point of contention in court. The instructor in my CCW course actually made a big deal about this.Something to consider...YMMV."I was in fear for my/my loved one's life" (or feared grievous bodily harm) and,"I aimed it at the bad guy" and,"I intended to shoot the bad guy", and"I pulled the trigger", and"The gun went 'bang'", and"I shot the bad guy".Doesn't matter if the firearm is modified or not - if you accomplish what you set out to do; namely to defend yourself/your loved ones, there should be no point of contention. Doesn't mean there won't be, but there shouldn't be.However, if you didn't intend to shoot someone, and your gun went off by accident (a negligent discharge), and you (for example) had happened to modify your fancy-dancy 1911 so that it has a 2 pound trigger pull, then you could get in trouble.Upshot: If you don't intend to use deadly force, don't pull the weapon. Period.*** I am not an attorney, but I was trained by one who has authored most of the Ohio statutes, and I attempt to keep as up-to-date/informed as is possible.***EDIT: Nice weapon Chebby. Cowlumbus police? I spoke with one the other day (informally, I wasn't pulled over), and he carries an M&P 40, says it's department standard.. Smith makes nice weapons - they're not XD's, but still pretty good... Edited March 14, 2011 by jblosser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 The CCW instructor was also an Internal Affairs Officer. He spends much time investigating 'good' shootings and 'bad' shootings. And was no stranger to the courtroom for criminal and civil cases involving definsive shootings. His arguements were convincing.Modifying is different than accesorizing. Sawing off a shotgun (even if it is still the legal size) is seen as a home hack job because the weapon wasn't deadly enough for your needs. Opposing council would definitely find some traction there. That could be a problem, especially in a civil trial. To put the odds in my favor...I wouldn't cut X's in bullet tips, cut anything off, disable safeties, etc. You can do whatever you want...YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 I have a very good high school friend who is a detective on one of the local police departments that spends a lot of time in the Rocky River courts during his job duties and has not ever come across a case where someone was harmed in court for modifications, good shoot or not. Don't you know, I can't remove any of the safeties from the Glock they don't have any. Most any mod you can do to a weapon that keeps it legal you can buy a weapon with that feature. I can buy a shotgun with an 18" barrel what difference does it make if I shorten a barrel to that length? I have no doubt that a civil attorney would try to use modifications against you but I know of no cases where a prosecuting attorney has. You don’t get to a civil trial if there is no criminal trial. If you are in court in a self defense shooting you have more troubles than being sued civilly. I can't wait to highjack this thread with pictures of my new Glock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 I can buy a shotgun with an 18" barrel what difference does it make if I shorten a barrel to that length?In real life nothing. In courtroom that is a huge difference. A DA will twist and turn everything to make you look like a gunslinger. A modified gun is more lethal in the DA's eyes. Massad Ayoob is one of the leading authorities on the subject. He preaches the doctrine that modification leads to liability for LEOs and civilian gun owners. His articales are worth a read. http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/brad-kozak/the-massad-ayoob-chronicles-part-v/...Generally, as a rule of thumb, anything that will make the gun shoot better for the shooter under extreme stress and poor light is absolutely defensible. And the reason is, if it makes you more likely to hit under those adverse conditions, it concomitantly reduces the danger of a wild shot that might hit a bystander.The two things I would strongly advise against doing and have strongly advised against doing, would be a trigger pull lighter than the factory recommends, and removal or de-activation of a safety device.You try not to give weapons to your opponent. If I have an [opposing] attorney trying to nail my scalp to the wall, I’m not gonna give him the sound bite of “Ladies and gentlemen, you’re here to determine whether this man was reckless, and arrogant, and negligent. Ladies and gentlemen, he was so reckless, he deactivated the safety device on a lethal weapon. And he was so arrogant, he thought he knew more about this gun than the designer.” Tell me how you’re gonna get past that.As far as the light trigger pull, your problem there, number one, is it has historically been linked to unintended discharges. So problem one, under stress, we SAY we’re gonna keep our finger off the trigger.The trouble with that study done in Europe with trained emergency-response personnel, indicated that several times, the sensors that were put on the test gun picked up a finger touching it [the trigger], when the officers swore that during the high-stress exercise their finger had never entered the trigger guard. It apparently occurs unconsciously, as the mind says “Hey, if we have to shoot this thing, we want to verify we can reach the trigger.”Second, you can go to court and say “I didn’t accidentally discharge the gun, I always keep my finger outside the trigger.” And they will then hit you with the bomb. “So, you want this jury to believe that you’re incapable of making a mistake? You’re the first perfect human being in two thousand and ten years. Is that what you’re telling this jury?” Now that is gonna be a pretty tough sell...It's your ass. Cover it how you see fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblosser Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 ...nvm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 I am well aware of whom Massad Ayoob is and I think sometimes he writes stuff just to have something to say. He has a following for a very good reason but it is in his best interest to keep that following and not everything he puts out is valuable. In our state if you are carrying legally and legally defend yourself you will not be prosecuted for modifications. This also insulates you from civil liabilities. There are times when modifications can lead you to make an ND and if harm is caused from that I don't have a problem with being made responsible for the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 What kind of Barney Fife dept are you getting on that you have to buy your own gun?They're going to make him keep his one bullet in his shirt pocket to keep him from shooting his foot, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 What kind of Barney Fife dept are you getting on that you have to buy your own gun?Most smaller departments you start of auxiliary and are required to have your own firearm. If/when you get on full time they supply you with one."***EDIT: Nice weapon Chebby. Cowlumbus police? I spoke with one the other day (informally, I wasn't pulled over), and he carries an M&P 40, says it's department standard.. Smith makes nice weapons - they're not XD's, but still pretty good...Not CPD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Thanks Jagr, pleasure doing business with you.Glocks rule! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawi kid Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I wanna see pics of it when you modify it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Enjoy NotherMotherBrother!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks Jagr, pleasure doing business with you.POS Glock picsGlocks rule!Hey now! Don't be ruining my thread with your glock pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I thought I was adding some class and dependability to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagr Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Smiths are ghey. More proof of gheyness. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3hSDODDNs4&feature=youtube_gdata_player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I thought I was adding some class and dependability to it.I'll give you dependability, but class? ha!Smiths are ghey. More proof of gheyness. YouTube - The Smiths 'This Charming Man' 1983 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolWhip Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I really want an M&P .40 I was fingering one at Buckeye Outdoors yesterday. I own a Glock and an XD, plus I have shot the M&Ps. I have to agree that the M&P just fits the hand awesomely. Unless I find a deal that is too good to pass up, that will more than likely be my next handgun purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblosser Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 New Albany S.R. has (well, had on Saturday morning) 3 or 4 M&P range guns and that many Glocks for sale.Prices seemed OK for being range guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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