chevysoldier Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 So... the officer might have reason to question the law abiding citizen' date=' but does he have reason to pull his weapon, harass and detain the citizen?[/quote']You're stretching the "might" and you know it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseeker270 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 How is that looking for a confrontation? I open carry a lot and carry a voice recorder. I'm not looking for trouble but if something goes down, I have some proof to back me up.When you carry open in a big city you will be noticed by whoever is around you. Police, citizens, bad guys, etc. It just seems that if you feel the need to walk around with a recorder, you must feel that at some point, you will be confronted and need to explain yourself. Never understood the open carry thing and why you would want to broadcast to people you are armed. If I am a bad guy and planned to raise hell, I would take out the obvious threats first. Guess what, you're that threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 How is that looking for a confrontation? I open carry a lot and carry a voice recorder. I'm not looking for trouble but if something goes down, I have some proof to back me up.When you carry open in a big city you will be noticed by whoever is around you. Police, citizens, bad guys, etc. It just seems that if you feel the need to walk around with a recorder, you must feel that at some point, you will be confronted and need to explain yourself. Never understood the open carry thing and why you would want to broadcast to people you are armed. If I am a bad guy and planned to raise hell, I would take out the obvious threats first. Guess what, you're that threat.Let's not get into an OC/CC debate, but yeah go find all the news articles about those who were open carrying and were the first to get shot. You won't find hardly any btw. I get noticed all the time. Cops and citizens. I've never had much of any issue. But should that uniformed or asshole cop try something with me, I'll be able to prove my side in court. Which I would be found innocent and they would pay all my court fees. Why should someone be stopped for doing nothing wrong? If he has been committing a crime and then found to be in unlawful possession of the handgun, then that's fine. But doing something that is legal in the first place shouldn't get you treated like that. How would you feel if you were walking down the street minding your own business and some cops treated you like that simply because your jeans were too baggy? Would that be justified? I mean don't criminals wear baggy jeans?Those that trade a little liberty for temporary security deserve neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseeker270 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I dont have time to research news articles. I'm just saying from a common sense/tactical stance, I don't understand the open carry. I don't want anyone to know I'm armed. If shit goes south, I can dictate when to react versus a dirtbag shooting me in the back because he knows I'm armed. Now he has 2 guns! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) I dont have time to research news articles. I'm just saying from a common sense/tactical stance, I don't understand the open carry. I don't want anyone to know I'm armed. If shit goes south, I can dictate when to react versus a dirtbag shooting me in the back because he knows I'm armed. Now he has 2 guns! If you prefer to CC because it gives advantage of surprise, cool. But to say that the person open carrying will be the first to be shot, doesn't hold true. There is only a couple reports of that happening. A couple open carry reports where it was beneficial. There are many more.http://blog.vcdl.org/index.php?/archives/601-VA-ALERT-VCDL-Mini-Update-71409.htmlhttp://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesawThe one example I can find where open carry was the target and not a deterrent.http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html?video=pop&t=a&bctid=CLIP_ID_249430I dont have time to research news articles.This just shows you are going off of what you think makes sense, not how things really happen.edit: found a second one where OC hindered the person. Of course it was a mentally challenged person, not a bad guy.http://www.usacarry.com/open-carrier-arrested-after-scuffle/ Edited March 26, 2011 by chevysoldier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 And have a read of posts #1 and #2.http://www.ohioriders.net/showthread.php?t=73609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I understand what you're saying and your point of view. Rather than compare apples to oranges, I'd rather attempt to deal with this particular situation for what it is. In reading the PA code, an informed LEO in Philadelphia would have reason to question the open carry of a citizen. In Ohio, an informed LEO would have to approach this particular scenario differently. How it would be approached depends on the LEO, the citizen open carrying and the circumstances surrounding the encounter. when you declare an argument moot by calling it "apples to oranges", the reasonable thing to do is to quantify the reasons for calling it "apples to oranges". Unless you can't. the rest of your points hinge on my previous point being a false equivalence. Particularly about the driver. I'm sure if you gave it some thought, you'll figure out why you're stuck.I dont have time to research news articles. I'm just saying from a common sense/tactical stance, I don't understand the open carry. I don't want anyone to know I'm armed. If shit goes south, I can dictate when to react versus a dirtbag shooting me in the back because he knows I'm armed. Now he has 2 guns!that's fantastic. do you often justify your ignorance with laziness and possibly a lack of ability to read critically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 that's fantastic. do you often justify your ignorance with laziness and possibly a lack of ability to read critically?Link to a post from chevy's thread above.http://www.ohioriders.net/showpost.php?p=629849&postcount=7Read more of that thread and then let's have a discussion if you wish and you can call me all kinds of names but disagreeing with someone's opinion doesn't mean they lack critical thinking.I think the police in this instance are complete idiots who don't know their jobs very well if open carry is legal in Philly. I seem to recall that that city has some different laws that didn't follow general rules regarding firearms. Maybe that has changed just like things have changed in Ohio. I'm too lazy to look it up though.Going about your business in a legal manor shouldn't result in a conversation with law enforcement to me that's pretty simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I dont have time to research news articles. I'm just saying from a common sense/tactical stance, I don't understand the open carry. I don't want anyone to know I'm armed. If shit goes south, I can dictate when to react versus a dirtbag shooting me in the back because he knows I'm armed. Now he has 2 guns!Link to a post from chevy's thread above.http://www.ohioriders.net/showpost.php?p=629849&postcount=7Read more of that thread and then let's have a discussion if you wish and you can call me all kinds of names but disagreeing with someone's opinion doesn't mean they lack critical thinking.I think the police in this instance are complete idiots who don't know their jobs very well if open carry is legal in Philly. I seem to recall that that city has some different laws that didn't follow general rules regarding firearms. Maybe that has changed just like things have changed in Ohio. I'm too lazy to look it up though.Going about your business in a legal manor shouldn't result in a conversation with law enforcement to me that's pretty simple.refer to his previous posts and the ones i bolded. he takes the time out of his day to essentially say that all open carriers are attention whores who want to sue cities, does nothing to back it up or "prove the point" other than saying it's coming "from a common sense/tactical perspective". only that he has no time to read actual research to quantify his beliefs and back up his points. i have nothing against anyone having opinions. If you're refuting a point of contention, more substance is needed.why would i call you names when you already have such a good one, uncle pink? Also, i was in that thread. it's not exactly canon material.playing devil's advocate is sad when you're being half hearted about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWing'R Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Sounds like Chevy and his open carry buddies need to plan a roadtrip to philly for their next open carry get together. It would be interesting to see how those cops dealt with a dozenpeople open carrying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Chief201 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I understand what you're saying and your point of view. Rather than compare apples to oranges, I'd rather attempt to deal with this particular situation for what it is. In reading the PA code, an informed LEO in Philadelphia would have reason to question the open carry of a citizen.In Ohio, an informed LEO would have to approach this particular scenario differently. How it would be approached depends on the LEO, the citizen open carrying and the circumstances surrounding the encounter. By informed what do they mean? This cop saw this guys gun and stopped him. I don't know how that can be called "informed". This leaves a lot of room for leeway because you can never be truly 100% informed of who the person is without stopping them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I dont have time to research news articles. I'm just saying from a common sense/tactical stance, I don't understand the open carry. I don't want anyone to know I'm armed. If shit goes south, I can dictate when to react versus a dirtbag shooting me in the back because he knows I'm armed. Now he has 2 guns!did you ever consider the possibility that open carry could possibly be a deterrent? that they may see you are armed and decide not to try anything?now, every scenario is different. of course there are times when open would be better than concealed, and of course there are times when concealed would be better than open. we dont know what those times are ahead of time though, so the bottom line is this: open carry is just another choice we have. simple as that. it may not be for everyone, some ppl prefer concealed. thats fine. thats their choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Green Valley Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 when you declare an argument moot by calling it "apples to oranges", the reasonable thing to do is to quantify the reasons for calling it "apples to oranges". Unless you can't. the rest of your points hinge on my previous point being a false equivalence. Particularly about the driver. I'm sure if you gave it some thought, you'll figure out why you're stuck. Well, I never declared this an argument, my response does not make this topic moot, and I'm not stuck. But, there also comes a point in almost any discussion with varied opinions where the only thing you can agree on is to disagree. I look forward to reading the upcoming dialogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 argument can mean assertion too. i think thats how he was trying to use it, not as in verbal conflict or debate... IMO what does make the topic moot is the fact that the established case law says that simple open carry, lacking any criminal activity, is NOT legal grounds for a police stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 argument can mean assertion too. i think thats how he was trying to use it, not as in verbal conflict or debate... IMO what does make the topic moot is the fact that the established case law says that simple open carry, lacking any criminal activity, is NOT legal grounds for a police stop.+1I've had LE tell me that if someone calls, because I'm open carrying, they need to check it out. (In regular discussion, I haven't been stopped for OC) My response is that whoever receives the call should discuss with the caller whether or not something illegal is actually happening not just because I have a weapon on me and that carrying is legal. If I get stopped while doing something legal you can guarantee I'm going to treat it as harassment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 IMO what does make the topic moot is the fact that the established case law says that simple open carry, lacking any criminal activity, is NOT legal grounds for a police stop.This times eleventy billion. +1I've had LE tell me that if someone calls, because I'm open carrying, they need to check it out. (In regular discussion, I haven't been stopped for OC) My response is that whoever receives the call should discuss with the caller whether or not something illegal is actually happening not just because I have a weapon on me and that carrying is legal. If I get stopped while doing something legal you can guarantee I'm going to treat it as harassment.Yes, if they get a call they need to check it out or at least ask the caller what is going on. If I get the police called on me for open carrying and the caller is asked what I am doing it will probably be something to the effect of "He is pushing a shopping cart with groceries in it walking with his wife and daughter." Then the reply should be "Oh, well he is doing nothing illegal. Have a nice day." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseeker270 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 refer to his previous posts and the ones i bolded. he takes the time out of his day to essentially say that all open carriers are attention whores who want to sue cities, does nothing to back it up or "prove the point" other than saying it's coming "from a common sense/tactical perspective". only that he has no time to read actual research to quantify his beliefs and back up his points. i have nothing against anyone having opinions. If you're refuting a point of contention, more substance is needed.You're actually pretty close jbot. Legal or not, in a large city, there is no reason to carry open unless you want the attention. Nothing wrong with that. Guys who are insecure or somehow inadequate do it all the time. Short guys who get the big 4x4 trucks, etc. Just own it! I don't need stats to back it up. I live it. Talk to a thug some time and ask them about how they operate. More organized than you think. why would i call you names when you already have such a good one, uncle pink? Also, i was in that thread. it's not exactly canon material.playing devil's advocate is sad when you're being half hearted about it.That's my time for the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 It's a good thing some police are willing to violate our rights for doing absolutely nothing illegal. Ridiculous. I seriously can't believe you see nothing wrong with a citizen, who has rights, being treated this way for being well within the law. I'd love to see you get treated this way for doing nothing wrong and then lets see how your tune would change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseeker270 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 It's a good thing some police are willing to violate our rights for doing absolutely nothing illegal. Ridiculous. I seriously can't believe you see nothing wrong with a citizen, who has rights, being treated this way for being well within the law. I'd love to see you get treated this way for doing nothing wrong and then lets see how your tune would change.I totally agree that it is legal and you have the right to not be harassed. BUT this is not a state where it is common place and arouses suspicion when a person walks down the street with a sidearm exposed. Do your own stats. Next time your out open carrying, ask those around you if they are uncomfortable that you are standing next to them with an exposed gun. What if a guy is walking in a known drug area of town strapped? What if a guy in suburbia does it? Guarantee the guy in the drug area will get a thousand calls to 911 and he will be questioned. Guess the guy in suburbia should be left alone. It's a no-win for police. Again, it's not can you, it's should you? Why do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 im uncomfortable around people with exposed firearms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I totally agree that it is legal and you have the right to not be harassed. BUT this is not a state where it is common place and arouses suspicion when a person walks down the street with a sidearm exposed. Do your own stats. Next time your out open carrying, ask those around you if they are uncomfortable that you are standing next to them with an exposed gun. What if a guy is walking in a known drug area of town strapped? What if a guy in suburbia does it? Guarantee the guy in the drug area will get a thousand calls to 911 and he will be questioned. Guess the guy in suburbia should be left alone. It's a no-win for police. Again, it's not can you, it's should you? Why do you?Why would I want to ask people around me and bring attention to my self? How many bad guys do you see walk around with guns out in the open on their hips? You think the guy walking in to rob the gas station is wearing his on is belt in a serpa retention holster? Or does he have it stuffed in his waistband or pocket?Why do I? *I have nothing to hide. *A right not exercised is a right lost.*I find the deterrent factor outweighs the "tactical surprise" in many cases.*If someone sees me open carrying a gun and not being a threat to them, hopefully that helps guns rights and to get rid of many of the stupid anti gun laws. *It is easier to draw from a holster outside my pants than having to lift my shirt and draw it from inside my waistband. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 BTW. I OC'd all day today. Went to an auction and they were selling some firearms. The auctioneer made a comment that when someone placed a winning bid, the gun would be taken to the counter because it made them uncomfortable with people walking around with guns. This was said in a joking manner and a couple of people turned around, looked at me, then my sidearm, back at me and just laughed. There was also a guy carrying IWB and his shirt road up and exposed it. People saw it, said "oh cool, look at that." and that was it. Then I went to dinner at a restaurant and OC'ed. (no alcohol served at this establishment). No issues at all, no one cared or gave me funny looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 *It really irritates the shit out of "The Man". This too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Absolutely irrelevant. Your comfort isn't a protected right.But I have the right to pursue happiness! Oh that's right. Pursuing is not the same as deserving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 playing devil's advocate is sad when you're being half hearted about it.You caught me actually trying but I can't bring myself to work that hard for entertainment value. I is sad.Carry on............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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