I'm officially in bizarro world...

[Cheech]

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/tsa/161101-gop-denies-tsa-money-to-buy-more-body-scanners

I have to give credit where it's due, well done Republicans.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Cheech

[Steve Butters]

america! fuck yea!

[Disclaimer]

I felt the same way when I read this little blurb --

Texas House bans 'offensive' security pat-downs

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/state&id=8128623

It was actually nice to see the pro-"personal liberty" GOP members instead of the pro-business, pro-security GOP'ers I'm often reading about.

[psyco1]

It's in vogue to be anti authority now since a Dem is president, four years ago the sponsors of that bill would've been hung for being anti-American.

[Casper]

I felt the same way when I read this little blurb --

Texas House bans 'offensive' security pat-downs

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/state&id=8128623

It was actually nice to see the pro-"personal liberty" GOP members instead of the pro-business, pro-security GOP'ers I'm often reading about.

Hate to say I told you so....

Now who hates America?

[Disclaimer]

A few guys in a state congress doesn't really constitute an "I told you so" - I bet this bill dies like so many others. Sent to a committee where it just collects dust and cobwebs. Political theater.

This whole mess was started because GOPers are scared of damn near everything. The act that created the TSA was signed in Nov 2001. Had this additional bureaucracy (created under those 'less gov't' GOP people, irony?) not been created in the first place -- we wouldn't have gotten here.

Regardless, like it's been debated before on here -- there's a lot of common ground I find with conservatives, REAL conservatives, not this neo-con crap that's been going on since GHWB.

Edited May 16, 2011 by JRMMiii

[Casper]

A few guys in a state congress doesn't really constitute an "I told you so" - I bet this bill dies like so many others. Sent to a committee where it just collects dust and cobwebs. Political theater.

This whole mess was started because GOPers are scared of damn near everything. The act that created the TSA was signed in Nov 2001. Had this additional bureaucracy (created under those 'less gov't' GOP people, irony?) not been created in the first place -- we wouldn't have gotten here.

Regardless, like it's been debated before on here -- there's a lot of common ground I find with conservatives, REAL conservatives, not this neo-con crap that's been going on since GHWB.

Technically, it's Bill Clinton's fault. He had the opportunity to take out Bin Laden but chose not too. He was too busy with cigars.

[Disclaimer]

Now we're in another circular argument.... It's Clinton's fault that OBL wasn't dead, but Obama can't get credit for making the call.

Never win.

[Casper]

Now we're in another circular argument.... It's Clinton's fault that OBL wasn't dead, but Obama can't get credit for making the call.

Never win.

Obama made the call after Bush did all the work.

[Casper]

I'm completely trolling by the way.

[RFM]

Obama made the call after Bush did all the work.

If by work you mean barked up the wrong tree. Or invaded the wrong country. Either works.

[chevysoldier]

Bill Clinton showed Bin Laden we were paper tigers.

[Disclaimer]

Bush was just finding places where Bin Laden WASN'T... so he checked them off the list for Obama.

Like Battleship.

[RFM]

Worth ignoring for those of you who would ignore it, or can't read. Whichever.

In 1996, during the Clinton administration, the CIA forms “Alec Station,” an internal group tasked with tracking down international terrorist Osama bin Laden.

December 2000: Outgoing Clinton National Security team meets with incoming Bush team, and presses them to ignore Saddam Hussein, and concentrate instead on Osama bin Laden. The warnings were delivered face-to-face to incoming National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice, Deputy Advisor Stephen Hadley and Philip Zelikow, amongst others. According to Richard Clarke, counter-terrorism expert and CIA analyst, “It was very explicit.”

January 25th, 2001: Richard Clarke, frustrated at being rebuffed warns in writing; “We urgently need a Principals level review on the al Qida network.”

July 10th, 2001: CIA Director George J. Tenet and counterterrorism chief J. Cofer Black again warn National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice to go after Bin Laden, but are ignored. Secretary Rice informed Clarke and Tenet that they were more concerned with “upgrading America’s missile defenses” than terrorism, which the president and vice president viewed more as a “nuisance.”

August 6, 2001: A courier is dispatched from Washington to Crawford Texas where Bush is on vacation, with an urgent PDB titled “Bin Laden Determined to Strike US.” Bush tells the courier; “All right, you’ve covered your ass now.” According to all accounts, Bush never read it.

5 weeks later, al Qaeda terrorists attack in New York and Washington, killing more than 3,000 people while Bush was visiting his brother in Florida; the worst attack on U.S. soil, and the greatest failure of government to perform their primary function — to ensure the security of the people. (following the attacks, Richard Clarke was quietly marginalized and demoted. To date, he is the only government official to publicly apologize for 9/11).

The Bush administration (Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, specifically) obstructed the CIA’s efforts to catch bin Laden by hesitating for 30 days to send the military in after the CIA cornered him at Tora Bora.

Once cornered, the Bush administration paid off Afghan warlords to finish the job. Instead of capturing him, they took the money and vanished, many joining forces with al Qaeda.

December 2001: Osama bin Laden escapes Tora Bora and disappears for almost ten years.

March 13th, 2002: Bush is asked if we’ll ever find Osama bin Laden. “So I don’t know where he is. You know, I just don’t spend that much time on him, to be honest with you.”

April 17th, 2002: The Bush administration concluded internally, that the “Failure to commit U.S. ground troops to hunt bin Laden was it’s gravest error in the war against al Qaeda.”

In August 2002, Bush begins drawing off resources from Afghanistan, and preparing them for the next theater, Iraq; a country that had nothing to do with 9/11.

August 2005: The White House instructs the CIA to dissolve Alec Station, the secret group tasked with capturing Osama Bin Laden. C.I.A. official Michael Scheuer, who at that time headed the bin Laden group, was told bin Laden was no longer a threat. Scheuer adamantly protested, but the group was dissolved anyway.

The Bush admin orders CIA to torture captives, resulting in no definitive leads to bin Laden.

December 2008: Bush tells an ABC interviewer; “The biggest regret of all the presidency has to have been the intelligence failure in Iraq.”

* * * * * *

Candidate Barack Obama remarked several times on the campaign trail and during the debates, that he would go into Pakistan if he had evidence bin Laden was hiding there. The GOP mocked him for this; McCain called him naïve.

January 2009: Soon after being sworn in, president Barack Obama meets with CIA Director Leon Panetta, instructing him to “double down” on the hunt for Osama bin Laden.

May 1st, 2011: Osama Bin Laden killed in Abbottabad Pakistan by US forces, upon president Obama’s orders.

* * * * * *

Just 24 hours later, Bush administration alumni and associates fan out to the media, all claiming bin Laden would not have been captured had it not been for Bush era policies. Repeating the talking points issued by Karl Rove on Fox, others who mirrored this sentiment were; Andrew Card, Condoleeza Rice, Liz Cheney, Dick Cheney, Pete King, Donald Rumsfeld, Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Pat Buchanan, Laura Ingram, Andrew Breitbart, and virtually every on-screen personality at Fox News.

May 4th, 2011: Brent Bozell claims: Bush deserved to kill Bin Laden more than Obama did, therefore deserves more credit … calls Obama “rude” for not crediting Bush.

May 5th, 2011: Bush reportedly “upset” that he’s not being given more credit for the killing of bin Laden.

[cmoosego]

it wasn't any of the presidents.... it was an anonymous SEAL team member who should be commended for the kill... the president just gave the ok... end of story, it's soldiers that do the real killing...

[Disclaimer]

Bush wasn't even concerned about OBL anyway... nbd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJmFkbBjbO0

[fusion]

it wasn't any of the presidents.... it was an anonymous SEAL team member who should be commended for the kill... the president just gave the ok... end of story, it's soldiers that do the real killing...

OBL just gave the OK... end of story, it's the hijackers that did the real killing.

[Casper]

OBL just gave the OK... end of story, it's the hijackers that did the real killing.

Actually, the hijackers had nothing to do with the planning... they were just sheep doing what they were told would get them to heaven.

[fusion]

Actually, the hijackers had nothing to do with the planning... they were just sheep doing what they were told would get them to heaven.

Just like the SEAL team.

[Casper]

Just like the SEAL team.

You're joking, right?

[fusion]

You're joking, right?

You realize the SEAL teams are about as involved in the planning as the hijackers were right?

You also realize the OBL wasn't the planner of 9/11 right?

You have any idea how many people it takes for an operation like this?

To sum it down to just the end executing components is ridiculous.

[robhawk]

You realize the SEAL teams are about as involved in the planning as the hijackers were right?

You also realize the OBL wasn't the planner of 9/11 right?

You have any idea how many people it takes for an operation like this?

To sum it down to just the end executing components is ridiculous.

I haven’t posted here in a while but could not let this go. The Special Forces community is actually very involved in all stages of their operations, from planning to execution. So comparing them to the 9/11 hijackers is moot.

Bush and Obama both deserve some credit, the advisors and intel communities of both presidents deserve way more credit than either have been given. The operation is a sum of all parts, not just the bottom or top rung.

[fusion]

I haven’t posted here in a while but could not let this go. The Special Forces community is actually very involved in all stages of their operations, from planning to execution. So comparing them to the 9/11 hijackers is moot.

Saying "very" here is an overstatement of their involvement. Involved at some point sure, but only when needed and to the extent needed. There is ton that goes on that teams aren't very aware of at all because it doesn't impact their role.

There's a reason they were training on a mock up without knowing who they were going after initially. There are a lot of details that in the end don't impact the ground team's job.

There are probably 100's of people that were involved that at the time didn't know what they were playing a role in and won't ever be considered for any credit in the operation.

I'm not sure what you "could not let this go" since it's apparent you don't realize just the extent of what it takes for an operation like this and how the teams can't be "very involved in all stages of their operations". They wouldn't actually have time to perform their role if they had to deal with being involved in every aspect.

Bush and Obama both deserve some credit, the advisors and intel communities of both presidents deserve way more credit than either have been given. The operation is a sum of all parts, not just the bottom or top rung.

That was kind of my point.

[robhawk]

I'm not sure what you "could not let this go" since it's apparent you don't realize just the extent of what it takes for an operation like this and how the teams can't be "very involved in all stages of their operations". They wouldn't actually have time to perform their role if they had to deal with being involved in every aspect.

Well for one I have served in a supporting role on multiple teams with ODA’s, so I kind of know what “extent” it does take for operations like this to be conducted. The teams may not know the exact identity of the target until the final moments of planning but are given the freedom to plan their portion of the operation around that HVT (high value target). Sure they are only a portion of the planning but you blanket stated that “SEAL teams are about as involved in the planning as the hijackers were.” This is correct to some extent that the hijackers planned and executed their portion of the attacks. However that does not fit the bill with our SF community, they are allowed more free reign over their portions of the operations, and their input on the overall scope and direction is valued based on the experience.

[fusion]

I'm not sure what you "could not let this go" since it's apparent you don't realize just the extent of what it takes for an operation like this and how the teams can't be "very involved in all stages of their operations". They wouldn't actually have time to perform their role if they had to deal with being involved in every aspect.

Well for one I have served in a supporting role on multiple teams with ODA’s, so I kind of know what “extent” it does take for operations like this to be conducted. The teams may not know the exact identity of the target until the final moments of planning but are given the freedom to plan their portion of the operation around that HVT (high value target). Sure they are only a portion of the planning but you blanket stated that “SEAL teams are about as involved in the planning as the hijackers were.” This is correct to some extent that the hijackers planned and executed their portion of the attacks. However that does not fit the bill with our SF community, they are allowed more free reign over their portions of the operations, and their input on the overall scope and direction is valued based on the experience.

a) I was making a point by comparing the two.

b) you basically just said what I said - "they are allowed more free reign over their portions of the operations, and their input on the overall scope and direction is valued based on the experience". This is generally true of most peoples roles in any decent organization.