Trayvon Martin case will not go to the Grand Jury

[chevysoldier]

Martin should of had a taser. Taser would have beaten a gun. Kind of like paper beats scissors.

[imprez55]

Martin should of had a taser. Taser would have beaten a gun. Kind of like paper beats scissors.

Weeeee eeeeee. (I know you were being facetious, just figured I would provide some evidence why tasers are not actually non-lethal)

[Steve Butters]

yea, if theres already a pre-existing heart condition.

show the study where tasers kill people with normal health.

thats like saying peanuts are toxic and lethal just because someone with a peanut allergy died from eating them.

and i love how the one article says a man died from a taser, but then says he actually died from the fall that came after being tased....the taser didnt even kill the guy, he smashed his head....dont resist arrest, dont get tased....pretty fuckin simple in my book

Edited May 26, 2012 by Steve Butters

[imprez55]

So now the police need attain someone's medical records and have a doctor review them before they take action on a suspect? There is no viable or effective way to ensure that someone they need to neutralize will be safe from the actions they take. Not to mention that heart disease is the leading cause of death in the US which could have other effects that the study did not look into. It is a reasonable jump to believe that an already stressed heart could become overly stresses and go into an abnormal rhythm when stressed with that type of electrical input. They are not "non-lethal" devices, they are "less lethal" devices; just as god-like shot placement would be ("Shots to roughly 80 percent of targets on the body would not be fatal blows" Dr. Fackler).

[Steve Butters]

So now the police need attain someone's medical records and have a doctor review them before they take action on a suspect? There is no viable or effective way to ensure that someone they need to neutralize will be safe from the actions they take. Not to mention that heart disease is the leading cause of death in the US which could have other effects that the study did not look into. It is a reasonable jump to believe that an already stressed heart could become overly stresses and go into an abnormal rhythm when stressed with that type of electrical input. They are not "non-lethal" devices, they are "less lethal" devices; just as god-like shot placement would be ("Shots to roughly 80 percent of targets on the body would not be fatal blows" Dr. Fackler).

You still cant base lethality of something on a physical illness or defect. Should they check medical records? No. Shit happens. Like I said, don't resist, dont get tased. Refer back to my peanut example, just because they are lethal to some people, in the same way a taser could be lethal to someone with a heart condition, it does not make peanuts themselves deadly. By your definition, name ONE "non-lethal" form of detainment?

So since 80 percent of shots would be non-fatal, now a firearm is not a lethal weapon, and on the same level as a taser? LOL ok. I would love to see the trial that takes place when an officer shoots a non-threatening unarmed person who is resisting arrest, instead of tasing them. "But judge, I didn't think she would die. 80% of shots are non-fatal, so I thought it was ok."

Edited May 26, 2012 by Steve Butters

[imprez55]

I need to leave so I will make this short and sweet. The peanut example is not being looked at in the right context to make an accurate comparison. Think of it more along the line of if a food product is made in a facility or made with peanuts it needs to be labeled. It has to be labled because it is potentially deadly to someone. I never said their was a form of non-lethal detainment, I am simply pointing out that it is "false advertising", if you will, and gives people the wrong idea that only bunnies and rainbows come out the other end.

I never said shot placement was on the same level as a taser either. There is a strong hint of "guns kill everything" from this thread and that just simply shows that it is less lethal that a guaranteed kill. And why would a cop tase a "non-threatening unarmed person who is resisting arrest"? Oh yea, because its "not lethal" and there is no danger present.

The label of non-lethal numbs people to the idea that it can kill; I was presenting that it can be and widespread, thoughtless use is potentially hazardous.

[Scruit]

Martin should of had a taser. Taser would have beaten a gun. Kind of like paper beats scissors.

Can you image how different this all would have turned out if Zimmerman had used taser instead of a gun?

Not saying we should sell our guns for tasers... Just thinking out loud.

The moment they invent a weapon that instantly immobilizes like a taser (when it works) without doing any injuries (except for those resulting fall and pre-existing medical conditions) but can be fired multiple times in rapid succession... I will stop carrying my handgun.

[jblosser]

did someone call Tasers 'non-lethal'? I don't remember seeing that, but I also don't fell like re-reading 790 posts. I'd say they would more correctly be called 'less-lethal'.

Guns (well, a bullet sent on its way by a person pulling a trigger on a gun and then a hammer or striker hits the primer and the bullet takes off - but you know what I meant...) can kill people. Not every shot, but they have the ability to kill.

Tasers (getting tased) can kill people. Not every time, but they have the ability to kill.

Jogging/running can kill people. Happens every day. Not every time, but the risk is there.

Must be too hot to ride, all the bickering going on...

[jblosser]

Can you image how different this all would have turned out if Zimmerman had used taser instead of a gun?

Pepper spray might have worked.

[Scruit]

Pepper spray might have worked.

Sure, and fighting skills might have worked. Staying in his car might have worked. "Good evening Sir, I'm with the neighborhood watch. Do you live around here or are you visiting someone?" might have worked.

By carrying a gun, having no other less-lethal weapon and having no fighting skills Zimmerman contends was left in a situation where the only way to end the attack by Martin was to shoot him.

There is a huge difference (in the reasonableness of the method of defensive) between fighting back unarmed against your attacker versus shooting your attacker. That's like having only two hammers in your toolbox - a tiny one for driving tacks and a huge sledgehammer. When it comes time to drive in a roofing nail the small one won't work and the sledgehammer will leave a hole in your roof.

I think that if a neighborhood watch member is going to "patrol" their neighborhood (which is OK by me) they they need to be be able to use different levels of force, not be forced to choose between hand-to-hand or hand-grenade. They certainly also need training in conflict resolution, de-escalation and how to effectively communicate.

[Scruit]

Let's recap the police aresenal, in decereasing order of speed of incapacitation.

Taser: Less-lethal. People have died subsequent to its use from falls, pre-existing heart conditions, excited delerium, or potentially a direct cause that has not yet been scientifically established. When it works it is the quickest incapacitation.

AR-15, Shotgun: Almsot certainly lethal. Considered deadly-force. People have survived being shot but your odds and crappy.

MP5/, sidearm: Very likely to be lethal. Considered deadly-force. More likely to survive than a rifle/shotgun, but your odds are still crappy.

Rubber bullets/baton rounds: Less-lethal, but can kill, especially if struck in the head.

Pepperball gun: Less lethal. Possibly lethal if struck in the eye? Poentially lethal to asthmatics?

Pepper spray (Oleoresin Capsicum): Less lethal, but has been linked to deaths and at least one miscarriage I can find - but haven't seen any solid proof of.

Asp/baton/truncheon/Large Maglite when used as a club: Less-lethal, but can cause death.

Beanbag shotgun round: Less lethal - but has been citied as responsible for about one death per year since their introduction. Adoption is much less than taser so deaths may rise with adoption.

Fist fight/grappling/groundfighting: Less lethal, but people have dies from falling/hitting head, being punched or kicked too hard, or after being choked out. Can cause long-term injuries.

So, the only weapon an officer has that WILL NOT kill you is his voice. The fastest incapacitation typically comes with the greatest risk of death. Except for the taser - fastest incapacitation, extremely low risk of death.

Considering both speed of effectivenes and risk of death,the taser is the best, if it works. I'd love to know what the death ratio is of the taser (number of shots first versus number of people who subsequently died) versus a gun.

[shittygsxr]

You guys do realize that you are arguing with the guy who wanted to make a helicopter in his garage so he could fly into to town to get groceries. Right?

[Scruit]

You guys do realize that you are arguing with the guy who wanted to make a helicopter in his garage so he could fly into to town to get groceries. Right?

Hey now... I used to live next door to Don Scott, and work next door to Bolton Field. Back when the north outerbelt was 2 lanes. I used to joke i shoudl fly to work instead of drive.

[Steve Butters]

You guys do realize that you are arguing with the guy who wanted to make a helicopter in his garage so he could fly into to town to get groceries. Right?

:lol:

/thread

[Scruit]

Zimmerman's bond was revoked because his legal defense fund had more money than the court thought there was. Prosecutors said he intentionally misled the court.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?c=homepage-t

[magley64]

You guys do realize that you are arguing with the guy who wanted to make a helicopter in his garage so he could fly into to town to get groceries. Right?

Never had an aspiration to build something yourself?

I wanted to build something like a solotrek or an early version springtail...

I have an engineering degree, I understand physics, what makes this such an insurmountable task?

Now as for Martin/Zimmerman, I think we've all speculated about as much as possible, let it go to court, let the facts come out, let the jury decide if he's guilty, and let the judge sentence him if required...

There isn't much else to say.

Edited June 1, 2012 by magley64

[crb]

Never had an aspiration to build something yourself?

I wanted to build something like a solotrek or an early version springtail...

I have an engineering degree, I understand physics, what makes this such an insurmountable task?

Now as for Martin/Zimmerman, I think we've all speculated about as much as possible, let it go to court, let the facts come out, let the jury decide if he's guilty, and let the judge sentence him if required...

There isn't much else to say.

Why the change of heart you seemed all in for him to be sent to the chair?

[magley64]

Why the change of heart you seemed all in for him to be sent to the chair?

No, I wanted him interrogated and investigated, not let go on because he said "the other guy started it, and had it coming"

I don't think he should have followed martin, and I don't think he should have pulled a gun on him... but I'm all for him getting a fair trial.

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/11/30/trayvon-martin-case-whoopsie-scheme-team-mega-fail-dee-dee-is-kaiser-soze-motion-to-compel/

[ReconRat]

"I wanted him interrogated and investigated"

That's called a "police state" and the USA isn't into doing that yet.

Try some hard core country like North Korea.

[Pokey]

Imagine that......and long live Keyser Soze!!!!!

[Scruit]

OK, so I don't get it...

The request is a discovery from a third party for the original full-length recording, not the hacked-down poorly copied version. I don't see a reference to Witness 8 being 18yo in the discovery motion.

I also don't understand why the witness' age would be a "bombshell discovery" unless it can be proven that they lied to make her appear to be a minor to invoke some kind of special protection against a deposition by the defense..?

The closest to a "bombshell" I see here is that the recording handed to the defense is not the full interview - however that could easily wind up being explained away as portions of the conversation that are covered by attorney-client privilege were redacted. I don't know, just a guess.

To characterize this discovery motion as anything other than run-of-the-mill "Can we get a better copy please" you must know something about this case that I am missing.

[4DAIVI PAI2K5]

OK, so I don't get it...

The request is a discovery from a third party for the original full-length recording, not the hacked-down poorly copied version. I don't see a reference to Witness 8 being 18yo in the discovery motion.

I also don't understand why the witness' age would be a "bombshell discovery" unless it can be proven that they lied to make her appear to be a minor to invoke some kind of special protection against a deposition by the defense..?

The closest to a "bombshell" I see here is that the recording handed to the defense is not the full interview - however that could easily wind up being explained away as portions of the conversation that are covered by attorney-client privilege were redacted. I don't know, just a guess.

To characterize this discovery motion as anything other than run-of-the-mill "Can we get a better copy please" you must know something about this case that I am missing.

They lied about her to get the arrest.

[Scruit]

They lied about her to get the arrest.

Did they lie about her age? How would her age make a difference?

Did they make her up completely? Did they lie about her age to prevent the defense from getting a deposition until she coudl be better schooled on a fake version of events?

Did she never exist in the first place? She will have to be present in court to face cross-examination. The witness information is on file with the prosecutor's office, no? Bring her in to court and age fro her age. The phone records should indicate if Martin was talking to someone, and who owns the number he was talking to. If phone records show no phone call then we have a problem. If there ARE phone records but there is no way she could have been using that phone number at the time, then we have a problem.

I guess I see what this site is getting worked up about - but there are enough rational explanations for the age discrepancy that I'm not going to go nuts over it until it is fully explained. She may be real but she lied about her age to the Martin attorney for reasons unrelated to the case. Maybe she was too old/young to date Martin, or something like that.

I think it is a leap to suggest that Witness #8 doesn't exist. Not saying she absolutely DOES, just saying the age discrepancy and slow discovery process is not enough to make me suspect that she never existed.

Now, if it turns out that witness #8 was a fabrication, then I wanna see heads roll. I would want to see Crump in jail and lose his law license, along with anyone else who knew.

[kawi kid]

The way it reads to me is she fictional. There is no Dee Dee. She was made up along with her testimony that stated she was in the phone during the encounter.