back to the basics

[TMCGRAW]

I like that mentality, although some people would disagree. That was pretty much the plan when I got.the bike, just ride it and do what im comfortable with(although did.have that 1 oh shit moment, I was comfortable till then and I still had fun on my first long twisty trip, even after the lil slide) pretty much strong wind, high speeds(over55) and wet roads are the only thing that make me uncomfortable(some would disagree cuz I did panic once)

Im still getting down the whole look where you wanna go thing, I do it 80% of the time, but I need to do it 100% of the time. Im gunna do some practice this weekend with a buddy so I can grasp the concepts better though, instead of.just going through the motions like a zombie

Well like a lot of these guys mentioned there is no replacement for the MSF, maybe a track day could help out, I want to do one really bad and most likely will schedule one for this summer (buying my first house now, money is a bit tight, but like before mentioned, I'd be dumb to not take the oportunity to spend a mere $200 in relation to what it gets you knowledge wise (It's cheaper than a college class and you get way more out of it I bet)).

There is also the parking lot drills ... I did so many parking lot drills it wasn't funny, I still do them, you absolutely can not practice enough, it's no different than anything else you do in life, practice makes ... Better.

Anyone can go fast in straight lines.

[Exarch]

Well like a lot of these guys mentioned there is no replacement for the MSF, maybe a track day could help out, I want to do one really bad and most likely will schedule one for this summer (buying my first house now, money is a bit tight, but like before mentioned, I'd be dumb to not take the oportunity to spend a mere $200 in relation to what it gets you knowledge wise (It's cheaper than a college class and you get way more out of it I bet)).

There is also the parking lot drills ... I did so many parking lot drills it wasn't funny, I still do them, you absolutely can not practice enough, it's no different than anything else you do in life, practice makes ... Better.

Anyone can go fast in straight lines.

Ya, I know I need to knock the classes out, thats something everyone can agree on hands down. Lil easier said than done though. Money isnt a huge issue in my book, time is the big issue(I know, thats a lame excuse) till then im happy I can atleast do some parking lot drills with someone experienced

Btw congrats on getting your first house, hopefully you can get a nice one at a good price I also read you were in the military, that should help out big time with getting a loan. make sure to look into getting reduced rates and other possible benefits that are out there for you, it would suck to let em go to waste.

[turnone]

It's like watching a sitcom on TV where a room full of politicians try to explain democracy. They all have been doing it but really have no clue how they managed to accomplish it.

I agree with the above.

I registered for this site after reading every page of this thread and pretty much every post. Guy is stubborn, thinks he knows things that he doesn't know. To be fair, many of us were probably like this at one time. But we were WRONG!

So many people get the counter steering confused because they never think it through. Your brain instinctively does most of it.

As some here are advocating, stop thinking and start riding, I agree this works for some and up to a point. However, I fall in the other camp. Riding is a dangerous activity and I love doing it. I don't have a death wish, so I want to have fun and be as safe as possible while doing it. To help me accomplish this, I want to UNDERSTAND why things work and how to manipulate them to my advantage. Once I understand I can practice and refine my technique.

Let's start with the basics:

Scenario A: Motorcycle is stationary and fully upright. As in you are sitting on it. If perfectly upright (90 degrees) from the relatively flat Earth. It is pretty easy to manage. If you let go for a moment here, nothing really happens as long as bike is perfectly upright.

Scenario B: Motorcycle is leaned over 15 degrees. Like on the kick stand. Bike is much harder to manage as you feel the weight (that thing we call gravity pulling the mass of the bike toward the Earth). If you let go of the bike here and kickstand is up, bike quickly falls over and tears may be shed.

When riding in a straight line, bike is similar to Scenario A above, so we will call it Scenario A1. You can let go of the handlebars and bike stays upright and goes relatively straight. Moving your body or pulling on parts of the bike will only have a very small effect on the direction of the bike.

When cornering at anything faster than parking lot speeds, the bike will only turn successfully if leaned over. Scenario B1. The reason is that you are driving the bike under itself at EXACTLY the same rate as it is falling to the ground.

Take a yard stick and balance it on one finger. As it starts to fall, you need to move your finger in the direction it is falling to keep it from falling completely.

If the front wheel wasn't turned just the perfect amount, the bike would do one of two things: Lean more (closer to the ground) OR Lean less (more upright). This may sound complicated, but this is simply what I call Two Wheel Balance. Just like riding a bike. You trained your brain how much to move the handlebars to keep this perfectly balanced when needed. At the conclusion of a turn, you steer even further, meaning you drive the front end past the perfect balance point, causing the bike to force itself upright. Some people make very small adjustments. If you ever want to be able to corner fast, you must be able to FORCE the handlebars to get the desired lean angle much faster. This can also be helpful on the street for accident avoidance or getting caught going to fast into a corner. It's been tested by smart people like Keith Code that handlebar input is the single biggest factor in cornering. Practice doing this. I have never seen anyone wash out the front from putting too much input into the handlebars and it turns out you can put a crazy amount of speed and force into steering the bike. This is one of the things that makes fast guys fast. The less time it takes to achieve maximum lean angle, means more time at max lean, which means less time to negotiate a particular corner.

Some things not to confuse.

1. When turning RIGHT, the wheel is pointing to the RIGHT. This is after you most likely counter steered to the LEFT to get the bike to fall over to the RIGHT. Once at desired lean angle, front wheel is facing the direction of the turn (RIGHT)!

2. Riding fast and riding safe aren't always the same thing. Being able to ride fast while riding safely increases the safety margin.

3. Counter steering is not very effective at parking lot speeds. Much easier to use your body weight by hanging off in the direction of turn to prevent the bike from falling over the opposite way. Depending on your bike, your weight and how far you hang off dictates how much you can turn the front wheel without the bike falling over the opposite way.

My advice to the Ninja 250 rider is spend a lot of time in an empty parking lot. Ever new rider should be practicing slow and medium speed turns, threshold braking, riding in the proper gear, etc.

Nothing worse than screwing up and not knowing why but thinking you do!

Chris

[TMCGRAW]

As some here are advocating, stop thinking and start riding, I agree this works for some and up to a point. However, I fall in the other camp. Riding is a dangerous activity and I love doing it. I don't have a death wish, so I want to have fun and be as safe as possible while doing it. To help me accomplish this, I want to UNDERSTAND why things work and how to manipulate them to my advantage. Once I understand I can practice and refine my technique.

Nothing worse than screwing up and not knowing why but thinking you do!

Just to clarify I liked all of your input and a lot of your post; things I quoted above, I liked the most. Thanks for your 0.02!

[Exarch]

Im surprised you read this entire thread and still signed up with that said im going to put most of that advice on hold for now as its a little advanced. Once I get through some parkinglot drills and more natural.cornering and seat time advice like that will be more appealing to me since i.dont go.fast.through.the.corners(yet) I take em nice and slow at a speed im comfortable at.

[turnone]

Im surprised you read this entire thread and still signed up with that said im going to put most of that advice on hold for now as its a little advanced. Once I get through some parkinglot drills and more natural.cornering and seat time advice like that will be more appealing to me since i.dont go.fast.through.the.corners(yet) I take em nice and slow at a speed im comfortable at.

I'm suprised too. Especially when I failed to communicate to you the basics. Nothing I said is very advanced. I feel it is important you understand why bikes behave as they do. This doesn't require high speed cornering to understand which way the front wheel should be pointing to achieve the desired results.

Please let me know what you think is advanced.

Chris

[Exarch]

I'm suprised too. Especially when I failed to communicate to you the basics. Nothing I said is very advanced. I feel it is important you understand why bikes behave as they do. This doesn't require high speed cornering to understand which way the front wheel should be pointing to achieve the desired results.

Please let me know what you think is advanced.

Chris

from 'When cornering at anything above parking lot speeds' to 'which means less time to negotiate a particular corner'

I see where your getting at there, but its not something I want to put alot of thought into now as I still need to build up to that point. I do the speed limit(or below it) around the corners for now. 1st few corners I ever took were well below the speed limit, but im just trying to get the feel at lower speeds still and ill worry about taking them at higher speeds later. Think of it as crawl, walk, run, and sprint stages, I would consider myself in the walk stage.

Crawl) when I was crawling all corners made me nerves, didnt matter the turn radius, I wasnt even comfortable leaning.the bike yet(except to make a turn)

Walk) most corners dont bother me, I just use exra caution when negotiating them. I slipped up once, shit happens. Guess I got too comfortable and then panicked

Run) not here yet, but.... I feel comfortable in all turns no matter how sharp they are.

Sprint) a turns a turn, ill take em as fast as I feel like cuz I know exactly what im doing and I know myself and my bike can handle these speeds just fine and hell if I feel the turn was still too easy ill push myself harder around it next time.

[turnone]

Let's make a distinction that there are TWO ways to get around a corner.

1. Not counter steering. Typically I would call this parking lot speeds. Bike leans one way, you lean the other. You turn right, by hanging off the bike to the left.

2. Counter Steering as described in my previous post. Works best at speeds above parking lot speeds. 10-15 mph +. You lean in the direction of the bike. You turn right, you lean off to the right (if at all).

Now about the less time to get around the corner simply means = if you are in a race for example, getting around the corner in less time is a good thing and leads to lower lap times. Nothing hard about that. You don't have to be a bad ass to still understand how the fast guys go fast.

Chris

[SWing'R]

[turnone]

You are probably right. But I'm new and it is helping my post count .

And I can't make this up, years ago, I saw a guy on a Japanese cruiser who would not lean with the bike, he was slowing down and taking EVERY corner like a parking lot turn. It was scary!

Chris

[buildit]

Do the hokey pokey and you turn the bike around, that's what it's all about.

[Exarch]

Let's make a distinction that there are TWO ways to get around a corner.

1. Not counter steering. Typically I would call this parking lot speeds. Bike leans one way, you lean the other. You turn right, by hanging off the bike to the left.

2. Counter Steering as described in my previous post. Works best at speeds above parking lot speeds. 10-15 mph +. You lean in the direction of the bike. You turn right, you lean off to the right (if at all).

Now about the less time to get around the corner simply means = if you are in a race for example, getting around the corner in less time is a good thing and leads to lower lap times. Nothing hard about that. You don't have to be a bad ass to still understand how the fast guys go fast.

Chris

I lean, I counter steer, I dont think about it. I look where i.wanna go and the bike takes me there. I looked at the ground and the bike took.me there too

Ill think bout it.more when im ready to go faster around corners.

And yes we.have all beat this to.death, good time waster though

[QuikAccord]

I'm surprised no one locked this thread yet.

[chevysoldier]

So, has counter steering been mastered yet?

[SWing'R]

So, has counter steering been mastered yet?