Don't Thank a Marine for Their Service

[TMCGRAW]

I don't know how this will all play out, but "FTR" Magley64, Fuck you.

[magley64]

I don't know how this will all play out, but "FTR" Magley64, Fuck you.

apparently you've decided it will play out with cursing...

thanks, enjoy your day as well.

Edited June 18, 2012 by magley64

[Josh1234]

I never once called the military a "job." It's far, far more than a job in a way that a civilian will never fully understand and "appreciate." It's a LIFESTYLE.

We were all willing to write a blank check for up-to (and including) our lives, if necessary. RVTPilot did a great job of explaining how it's different from a plain-old job working in a Ford plant. People with a normal job choose where they work, where they go when done, what they wear, how they look, etc. Those in the military get a lot less choice, Magley, about almost everything. Giving up freedom(s) to protect that of others is justification in itself to thank a vet. That's something completely different from, oh, you know, let's not forget "laying your life on the line" as well.

[magley64]

I've already thanked them by paying their salary...

It may not be an easy life, it may not be a fun life, but it is a life you accepted in return for the compensation you received.

Volunteer firefighters and police officers, on the other hand receive no pay and simply do it for the satisfaction of helping others. Those are the people we should be thanking, they put their lives on the line as well.

[Disclaimer]

Plus they get those sweet cop lights in their personal vehicles...

[Josh1234]

I've already thanked them by paying their salary...

It may not be an easy life, it may not be a fun life, but it is a life you accepted in return for the compensation you received.

Volunteer firefighters and police officers, on the other hand receive no pay and simply do it for the satisfaction of helping others. Those are the people we should be thanking, they put their lives on the line as well.

Must they be mutually exclusive? Why can't we thank both?

Just because military volunteered doesn't mean we don't owe them thanks. And just because someone chose to volunteer at home fighting fires & criminals doesn't mean it's safe. The normal idiot citizen is indebted to both groups.

[BDBGoalie]

I've already thanked them by paying their salary...

It may not be an easy life, it may not be a fun life, but it is a life you accepted in return for the compensation you received.

Volunteer firefighters and police officers, on the other hand receive no pay and simply do it for the satisfaction of helping others. Those are the people we should be thanking, they put their lives on the line as well.

Everyone gets the compensation they earned. Saying you paid a service member exempts your from thanking them in any other manner is wrong.

I agree that volunteer firefighters and police officers also make sacrifices and that is to be commended. They also get to do their work and go home every day. They deserve thanks for helping protect the community. You should thank them because they are doing something that needs to be done and you are not.

The military is not just a job, it is a way of life. It effects every aspect of your life, on-duty or off.

You are thanking that person for making the sacrifice, albeit knowingly, to give up some of their free will, comforts, joys and personal safety in order to perform a mission that ensures your way of life. You are thanking them because the country said who will help us complete this mission and they stood up when you did not.

Edited June 18, 2012 by BDBGoalie

[Coyote]

My Thanks to all of those who have served, in both times of war and in “peace”, for the sacrifice of time with loved-ones and of basic luxuries, and to those that left a part of themselves, whether physically, mentally or emotionally in a place far from home. My Thanks to those who have chosen to make the commitment to potentially give everything in order to preserve and protect the freedoms and choices we have in this Country, no matter how over-inflated some of our senses of entitlement.

[BDBGoalie]

Another thing, as a service member, I do not feel entitled to be thanked by others. That decision is all on them. I do appreciate those that offer thanks because they respect what we do.

[magley64]

You are thanking them because the country said "who will help us complete this mission?" and they stood up when you did not.

in that case, you had better thank everyone who chose a government job other than yours

the postal workers, the CIA, the FBI, NSA, INS, FDA... the list goes on and on...

OR they said "who wants paid better than the private sector? Also, we don't care if you have an education as long as you can follow orders"

[RVTPilot]

OR they said "who wants paid better than the private sector?"

Mags, I was about to recognize your last reply to me with proper respect. Then you type up this gem. You seriously have no idea what you are talking about here. If you take someone's MOS, what they make and compare simply that asepct of their responsibilites to what one makes in the private sector, it pales in comparision.

[RVTPilot]

Plus they get those sweet cop lights in their personal vehicles...

Man, I missed out. That would have been sweet! A light bar on my FZR back in the day would have been titties and beer!

[magley64]

Mags, I was about to recognize your last reply to me with proper respect. Then you type up this gem. You seriously have no idea what you are talking about here. If you take someone's MOS, what they make and compare simply that asepct of their responsibilites to what one makes in the private sector, it pales in comparision.

let's do that...

generally speaking, what does a high school graduate make in the private sector?

[jblosser]

I thank people who perform a service for me, e.g. a waiter/waitress; the postman, garbageman, and paperboy at Christmas; military members I might happen to see at the airport or walking down the street, etc.

It's common courtesy to thank someone who has done something for you, so the 'they get paid' argument is specious. Most people get paid for what they do - the volunteer fireman is a good example of someone who doesn't.

My quandary in thanking military folks is brought on by the video in the original post and by Chevy's video where the soldier (I presume he's legit) mocks the yellow ribbons on cars. Question to the soldiers on here: Is it not better that us civilians are grateful, respectful of, and thankful for your service? Some people choose to put ribbons on their cars to show they're thinking of you and that they support you. Is that so awful? I have to presume it's better than the Viet Nam era when returning vets were openly disrespected.

Side note to some: If you're not active duty, Reserve, National Guard, or a police officer, you're a civilian. Stop pandering to us 'civilians' by using 'civilian' as a semi-derogatory term.

After all, we pay your salary.

[jblosser]

...generally speaking, what does a high school graduate make in the private sector?

not generally speaking, but Bill Gates and Steve Jobs do (did) OK.

Have you looked at the pay scale for the military? Until you've been in a hundred years and make 4 star general, the pay ain't so hot.

[magley64]

not generally speaking, but Bill Gates and Steve Jobs do (did) OK.

Have you looked at the pay scale for the military? Until you've been in a hundred years and make 4 star general, the pay ain't so hot.

no I have not, (at least not in a decade) please fill me in.

[grapesmuggler27]

no I have not, (at least not in a decade) please fill me in.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp

I don't think o ever broke 30,000 a year until I made E-5 deployed and tax free.

[RVTPilot]

let's do that...

generally speaking, what does a high school graduate make in the private sector?

You really have the oversimplication of life down to a science. But to entertain your somewhat irrelevant and nonsensical analogy, let's look at a high school grad who takes a job with a constuction company, starting off with manual labor, but hired to be a drainage pipe layer. His buddy joins the Army and is assigned to the Army Corps of Engineers. We'll give the construction kid $9 an hour, as the national hourly starting wage in construction is $9.06. An E1 makes $1471 a month. $9 x 2080 hours in a standard work year = $18,720. $1471 x 12 = $17,652. For the sake of argument, the construction kid gets a 10 cent an hour raise in 30 days. (That was SOP for our construction company for new hires. 10 cents at 30 days, then another 15 at 90 which came to a 25 cent raise at 90 days. So after 3 months, the construction kid is making $9.25, or $19,240 a year, without any overtime. That E1 in the Army will get promoted to E2 after 6 months of service, and gets $1671 per month, or $20,052, now $812 more annually in base salary. But given that the construction kid was making $9.25 for 3 months before his buddy was promoted to PFC. Now, it will be at least 9 months before that PFC is promoted to E3, so he is done for promotions this year. He will not see any increase in pay, unless he is deployed to an active combat zone. At that point, even the most remote comparision between what the occupations are goes out the window. Don't even try the occupational hazard argument, it doesn't hold water. But our little construction buddy is apprenticing and gaining more responsibility. he's the best, hardest working high school graduate the world has ever seen. However, we can't calculate when he'd be promoted, so let's just give him 3% after a year from his $9.25. That's $9.54, or $19843.20, still $208.80 annually less than his Army buddy.

So after a year, our young construction worker has worked no more than 40 hours a week, and made $18,070, given his raises to $9.10 and $9.25 at the 30 and 90 day marks, respectively. The Army private made $18,852, given his promotion to E2 after 6 months, a difference of $782 in his favor. However, that private doesn't get paid overtime. That salary is based on being on duty 24/7. Most days his job has him work the minimum of 8 hours in a day. Typically, that is not the case for young Privates, as they are also discharged with any number of tasks because, as we all know, rank has its privileges! So what is the value of the time spent outside of the 2080 work hours one might work in the private sector compared to what our little soldier made working past his standard 2080? One way we can accomplish this is to see just how many hours of overtime his civilian counterpart would have to work to earn that extra $782. Since he is paid time and a half for OT, his hourly rate would be $13.88. 782 / 13.88 = 56.34 hours, so let's just say 56.5. Divide that by 52 weeks in a year, and he would have to work just over one hour of overtime a week. By comparison, the soldier would have one form or another of 24 hour duty at least once a month. This is known as duty section for most services, and it is typically broken into 4 groups, mainly because there are 4 weeks in a standard month. There are other variables, but this is the industry standard, if you will. So let's take the 16 additional hours he works every month as his only OT. That would be 216 hours. So, all things being equal, our construction lad worked not 56.5 hours of OT, but 216. That would be $2998.08 in his first year, giving him a total salary of $21,068.08, or $2216.08 more than his Army counterpart, and an average of $184.67 a month.

So please tell me again where the significant pay disparity is between the military and the private sector? Because, again...having already lived it, I have yet to see it.

[Cheech]

This probably won't endear me very much to the majority here, but as it is my opinion I feel it needs to be said. We, as a society, have massively overcompensated for the previous generation's contempt for soldiers returning form Vietnam. I'm all for acknowledgement of military service, and I fully understand the necessity of having people "on the wall". However, the level of soldier worship I've seen exhibited (especially if there's a television camera nearby), I think, is a little excessive. I can understand and appreciate the point of view about preserving freedoms and all that, however war is dictated by politics, not by military men. In my opinion, a far more direct avenue to preserve freedom in the US would be to take steps to end the drug war, or to curtail unlawful seizures, or to try and end warrantless wiretapping, or any one of a ton of other actions this administration or the others before it have used to encroach on personal freedoms.

[Cheech]

You really have the oversimplication of life down to a science. But to entertain your somewhat irrelevant and nonsensical analogy, let's look at a high school grad who takes a job with a constuction company, starting off with manual labor, but hired to be a drainage pipe layer. His buddy joins the Army and is assigned to the Army Corps of Engineers. We'll give the construction kid $9 an hour, as the national hourly starting wage in construction is $9.06. An E1 makes $1471 a month. $9 x 2080 hours in a standard work year = $18,720. $1471 x 12 = $17,652. For the sake of argument, the construction kid gets a 10 cent an hour raise in 30 days. (That was SOP for our construction company for new hires. 10 cents at 30 days, then another 15 at 90 which came to a 25 cent raise at 90 days. So after 3 months, the construction kid is making $9.25, or $19,240 a year, without any overtime. That E1 in the Army will get promoted to E2 after 6 months of service, and gets $1671 per month, or $20,052, now $812 more annually in base salary. But given that the construction kid was making $9.25 for 3 months before his buddy was promoted to PFC. Now, it will be at least 9 months before that PFC is promoted to E3, so he is done for promotions this year. He will not see any increase in pay, unless he is deployed to an active combat zone. At that point, even the most remote comparision between what the occupations are goes out the window. Don't even try the occupational hazard argument, it doesn't hold water. But our little construction buddy is apprenticing and gaining more responsibility. he's the best, hardest working high school graduate the world has ever seen. However, we can't calculate when he'd be promoted, so let's just give him 3% after a year from his $9.25. That's $9.54, or $19843.20, still $208.80 annually less than his Army buddy.

So after a year, our young construction worker has worked no more than 40 hours a week, and made $18,070, given his raises to $9.10 and $9.25 at the 30 and 90 day marks, respectively. The Army private made $18,852, given his promotion to E2 after 6 months, a difference of $782 in his favor. However, that private doesn't get paid overtime. That salary is based on being on duty 24/7. Most days his job has him work the minimum of 8 hours in a day. Typically, that is not the case for young Privates, as they are also discharged with any number of tasks because, as we all know, rank has its privileges! So what is the value of the time spent outside of the 2080 work hours one might work in the private sector compared to what our little soldier made working past his standard 2080? One way we can accomplish this is to see just how many hours of overtime his civilian counterpart would have to work to earn that extra $782. Since he is paid time and a half for OT, his hourly rate would be $13.88. 782 / 13.88 = 56.34 hours, so let's just say 56.5. Divide that by 52 weeks in a year, and he would have to work just over one hour of overtime a week. By comparison, the soldier would have one form or another of 24 hour duty at least once a month. This is known as duty section for most services, and it is typically broken into 4 groups, mainly because there are 4 weeks in a standard month. There are other variables, but this is the industry standard, if you will. So let's take the 16 additional hours he works every month as his only OT. That would be 216 hours. So, all things being equal, our construction lad worked not 56.5 hours of OT, but 216. That would be $2998.08 in his first year, giving him a total salary of $21,068.08, or $2216.08 more than his Army counterpart, and an average of $184.67 a month.

So please tell me again where the significant pay disparity is between the military and the private sector? Because, again...having already lived it, I have yet to see it.

I'm not taking sides in this, but merely answering a question: Unless Chopsaw McDrillbit lives with his parents, there is a significant amount of living expenses overhead that goes along with a apartment. My understanding (could be wrong here) was that there were no appreciable living expenses in the military.

[smashweights]

FWIW, a friend of mine was a volunteer firefighter all through undergrad and they paid him. Food for thought.

[RVTPilot]

This probably won't endear me very much to the majority here, but as it is my opinion I feel it needs to be said. We, as a society, have massively overcompensated for the previous generation's contempt for soldiers returning form Vietnam. I'm all for acknowledgement of military service, and I fully understand the necessity of having people "on the wall". However, the level of soldier worship I've seen exhibited (especially if there's a television camera nearby), I think, is a little excessive. I can understand and appreciate the point of view about preserving freedoms and all that, however war is dictated by politics, not by military men. In my opinion, a far more direct avenue to preserve freedom in the US would be to take steps to end the drug war, or to curtail unlawful seizures, or to try and end warrantless wiretapping, or any one of a ton of other actions this administration or the others before it have used to encroach on personal freedoms.

I wouldn't invalidate this opion, Cheech, other than to say I think this could very easliy be an entirely different conversation that you may even find a lot of vets agree with. With regard to the previous generation's missteps, I think it's simply our society's emotional pendulum swinigng back the other way, yet to find its center. There has also been a lot in the way of folks arguing since the war started that if you don't support the war, you're not supporting the troops, which is beyond ridiculous. As you said, war isn't dictated by the troops, it's done so by the governments in power.

To your point about a camera being present, anytime you involve the media you are going to have a polarized view of a given situation.

There are plenty of ways in which the liberties of Americans can be improved upon that wouldn't fall under the responsibilities of our armed forces. In fact, most of it can be done at the citizen level by doing things like registering to vote and actually voting. Again, this conversation can have a true life of its own. However, any of those liberties and freedoms would be moot were it not for those who volunteer to defend them. And once more, we're not asking for anyone's thanks to do so. We just did it because we were comfortable taking on that task knowing that it needs done.

[kawi kid]

I wish exarhomo was here to weigh in with his opinion. My bad guys

[RVTPilot]

I'm not taking sides in this, but merely answering a question: Unless Chopsaw McDrillbit lives with his parents, there is a significant amount of living expenses overhead that goes along with a apartment. My understanding (could be wrong here) was that there were no appreciable living expenses in the military.

It's worth discussing. I spent some of my time prior to being married living both in a barracks, and in my own apartment while being an E3. A couple of my barracks rooms were akin to a college dorm room, some were open squadbays in barraks that would be borderline condemned building by current civilian housing standards. But until I was an E3, living off bas wasn't an option. I had to live in the barracks, which wasn't entirely horrible. I guess what I am trying to say is that it is semantics, to a degree.

[RVTPilot]

I wish exarhomo was here to weigh in with his opinion. My bad guys

Oh he would make this epic! Spontaneous periods and all.