smashweights Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 This has gotten way off topic anyway. You guys are arguing over small pay differences and minor benefits. The bottom line comes down to this: in the last 11 years, nearly 6500 military personnel have died on the job while nearly 48,000 have been injured, some with permanent disability and there is no percentage of pay difference, free meals, or housing allowances that will ever make that risk more worthwhile. I would venture to guess that the number of fatalities at Ford is probably around zero. The mission of Ford is to make money, the mission of the military to to keep the people at Ford safe from external harm. Whether you think they're achieving this is irrelevant. So if you guys wanna argue that some E-3 pulling $30k or so per year is well compensated for the risks he's taking to try and protect this country, you're way off.Hell, I tell my server at a restaurant "thanks" even though I tip them. Why? Cause I'm a nice, appreciative person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVTPilot Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 This has gotten way off topic anyway. You guys are arguing over small pay differences and minor benefits. The bottom line comes down to this: in the last 11 years, nearly 6500 military personnel have died on the job while nearly 48,000 have been injured, some with permanent disability and there is no percentage of pay difference, free meals, or housing allowances that will ever make that risk more worthwhile. I would venture to guess that the number of fatalities at Ford is probably around zero. The mission of Ford is to make money, the mission of the military to to keep the people at Ford safe from external harm. Whether you think they're achieving this is irrelevant. So if you guys wanna argue that some E-3 pulling $30k or so per year is well compensated for the risks he's taking to try and protect this country, you're way off.Hell, I tell my server at a restaurant "thanks" even though I tip them. Why? Cause I'm a nice, appreciative person.This is arguably one of the bests posts of this thread, well above any of my own. On point, smash. Kudos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 This probably won't endear me very much to the majority here, but as it is my opinion I feel it needs to be said. We, as a society, have massively overcompensated for the previous generation's contempt for soldiers returning form Vietnam. I'm all for acknowledgement of military service, and I fully understand the necessity of having people "on the wall". However, the level of soldier worship I've seen exhibited (especially if there's a television camera nearby), I think, is a little excessive. I can understand and appreciate the point of view about preserving freedoms and all that, however war is dictated by politics, not by military men. In my opinion, a far more direct avenue to preserve freedom in the US would be to take steps to end the drug war, or to curtail unlawful seizures, or to try and end warrantless wiretapping, or any one of a ton of other actions this administration or the others before it have used to encroach on personal freedoms.I suppose this is a better written version of where I was coming from... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerpaw Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 HAHA! Given that I ended up working on jets for my time in, the Air Force had MUCH better facilities, had much newer equipment, and had better looking women to serve beside. Then again, if I ever wanted to hook up with an Air Force chick, all I needed to do was show up in my dress blues on any Air Force base. The flyboys never stood a chance.Or I just wear my flightsuit at any base, and "play" pilot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVTPilot Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Or I just wear my flightsuit at any base, and "play" pilot. Touche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) This has gotten way off topic anyway. You guys are arguing over small pay differences and minor benefits. The bottom line comes down to this: in the last 11 years, nearly 6500 military personnel have died on the job while nearly 48,000 have been injured, some with permanent disability and there is no percentage of pay difference, free meals, or housing allowances that will ever make that risk more worthwhile. I would venture to guess that the number of fatalities at Ford is probably around zero. The mission of Ford is to make money, the mission of the military to to keep the people at Ford safe from external harm.http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/13/dangerous-jobs-fishing-lead-careers-cx_tvr_0813danger.htmlWhere's the military rank on deaths per capita?Edit: Using your 6500 number, and given the enlistment of approx 2.9M (active + reserve - says wiki), you end up with 22.4 deaths per 100,000 per year. There are other careers that rank higher in the above link.And Ford had 9 fatalities in 2007 from their workforce http://corporate.ford.com/microsites/sustainability-report-2011-12/people-data-workplaceI'm not taking a stand either way... just presenting some numbers and food for thought -- spicing it up for further discussion. Edited June 18, 2012 by JRMMiii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 This is my least favorite thread in the history of me being on this site, please make it stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVTPilot Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 This is my least favorite thread in the history of me being on this site, please make it stop.Oh c'mon. You have lower standards than this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblosser Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 so far in 2012:Chicago - 224 murdersAfghanistan - 144 troops lost.2011 murder rate:Flint, MI: 50.8 per 100kDetroit: 48.23St Louis: 35.26Oakland, CA: 26.31Safer to go into combat than to live in Chi-town? That's just wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblosser Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 This is my least favorite thread in the history of me being on this site, please make it stop.I'd like to personally thank you for your service as Captain of the Scooter Brigrade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashweights Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/13/dangerous-jobs-fishing-lead-careers-cx_tvr_0813danger.htmlWhere's the military rank on deaths per capita?And Ford had 9 fatalities in 2007 from their workforce http://corporate.ford.com/microsites/sustainability-report-2011-12/people-data-workplaceThat depends on what time frame you want to include. This year hasn't been awful for the military. But if you look over the last decade? The last half century to make sure Vietnam is in there? The last century to include both World Wars? You're also not comparing apples to apples. Sure, a fisherman could slip and fall off a boat and drown, but the fair comparison is how many fisherman get shot or have their boat blown up?In the end, the point still isn't "what did happen?" It's not were you a low risk IT guy who never got shot at or an infantry soldier who had a car bomb go off. It's the potential. If the financial crisis in Europe precipitates the next major war, Ford won't see a huge increase in workplace fatalities.Step back and actually, think about the people you do thank. I says thanks to the pilot when I get off a plane, I thank a server when I'm done with a meal, I thank my mechanic when I get my car back, I thanked the guys who are painting my fence, and so on. Why is it hard to thank a military member then? Simple: you're blessed to not see the service they provide you. We thank so many people daily, instinctively, out of common courtesy, why is it such a big deal to thank someone who's willing to risk their life for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashweights Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Hell, a few weeks ago I had maintenance guy come fix the screens on my apartment windows. I could have said just said I pay my rent, it's his job, I don't owe him anything. But I thanked him anyway. I used to work in lawn care and none of customers owed me any more than they agreed to pay per treatment, but a few customers still offered me a cold drink and thanked me on a blistering summer day. Those are decent human beings. This country would be a lot fucking better if people were just more polite and appreciative in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVTPilot Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 so far in 2012:Chicago - 224 murdersAfghanistan - 144 troops lost.2011 murder rate:Flint, MI: 50.8 per 100kDetroit: 48.23St Louis: 35.26Oakland, CA: 26.31Safer to go into combat than to live in Chi-town? That's just wrong. Perhaps this means Chicago thugs are better marksmen than Afghanis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Step back and actually, think about the people you do thank. I says thanks to the pilot when I get off a plane, I thank a server when I'm done with a meal, I thank my mechanic when I get my car back, I thanked the guys who are painting my fence, and so on. those are people who provide a service to you personally...Should people thank me because the air conditioning works in their honda? No... I'm doing my job and it indirectly affects them, sure... but I'm not providing a service to them, I'm just looking after myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerpaw Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 What other "career" doesn't let you leave as you wish? When times are tough. When things aren't fair. When things break legal/moral boundaries. I didn't enlist during any major conflicts, yet I do what our elected officials deem is neccessary to keep our quality of life.As for not joining until you are needed...does that mean the US should have zero military forces, until we are attacked? It's called Defense.Thank a vet, not for what they have done, but what you are unwilling to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheech Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 What other "career" doesn't let you leave as you wish? When times are tough. When things aren't fair. When things break legal/moral boundaries. I didn't enlist during any major conflicts, yet I do what our elected officials deem is neccessary to keep our quality of life.As for not joining until you are needed...does that mean the US should have zero military forces, until we are attacked? It's called Defense.Thank a vet, not for what they have done, but what you are unwilling to!This I take offense to. Just because I have never worn a uniform doesn't automatically mean I'm unwilling to wear one. Put down the broad brush and start seeing some nuances, not everything is black and white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 I don't think unwilling is the right word.Unwilling is for able-bodied people on welfare that refuse to pick cabbage for $1.95/hr because migrant workers will do it for $2/hr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheech Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Hell, a few weeks ago I had maintenance guy come fix the screens on my apartment windows. I could have said just said I pay my rent, it's his job, I don't owe him anything. But I thanked him anyway. I used to work in lawn care and none of customers owed me any more than they agreed to pay per treatment, but a few customers still offered me a cold drink and thanked me on a blistering summer day. Those are decent human beings. This country would be a lot fucking better if people were just more polite and appreciative in general.those are people who provide a service to you personally...Should people thank me because the air conditioning works in their honda? No... I'm doing my job and it indirectly affects them, sure... but I'm not providing a service to them, I'm just looking after myself.I think I can sum this up: Don't be a dick to people. If you aren't a dick to people, don't go around trumpeting the fact that you aren't a dick to people and expect kudos. If you are a dick to people, expect a like response in return when you go around trumpeting that you don't give a fuck and it's all about me.Seriously, y'all need to get over yourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerpaw Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 This I take offense to. Just because I have never worn a uniform doesn't automatically mean I'm unwilling to wear one. Put down the broad brush and start seeing some nuances, not everything is black and white.I think "unwilling" is the perfect word.I believe every able bodied American should serve an enlistment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 As for not joining until you are needed...does that mean the US should have zero military forces, until we are attacked? It's called Defense.No, attacking others before you are attacked is called offense...Thank a vet, not for what they have done, but what you are unwilling to!As I've said, and am willing to reiterate, should the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA come under attack from a foreign entity, and there is the need for me to take up arms to defend my country, I am absolutely willing to do so...I refuse, however, to make a career out of military service. It's a fine career choice for my cousin, and he loves it, but it's just not for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 What other "career" doesn't let you leave as you wish? When times are tough. When things aren't fair. When things break legal/moral boundaries.arctic fishermen? astronauts? Did these stipulations come as a surprise? or were you fully aware of them when you signed a contract? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerpaw Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 arctic fishermen? astronauts? Did these stipulations come as a surprise? or were you fully aware of them when you signed a contract?I didn't mean "leave" within the heat of the moment. I mean someone does multiple tours, hates what they are doing, and still has years left of an enlistment. They can't leave.Of course I had an idea of what I signed into. Did I fully grasp the gravity at 18 y/o? Hell no! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerpaw Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 As I've said, and am willing to reiterate, should the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA come under attack from a foreign entity, and there is the need for me to take up arms to defend my country, I am absolutely willing to do so...So you enlisted on 12 Sep 2001? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Of course I had an idea of what I signed into. Did I fully grasp the gravity at 18 y/o? Hell no!Do you think any 18 YO understands the gravity of what they are signing?Should we raise the minimum age requirement to 21? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) So you enlisted on 12 Sep 2001?yes, to kill those highjackers... wait they died in the crash... we win! resume civilian life...also, i was 17... Edited June 18, 2012 by magley64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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