Calling all "Ignorant F's", I mean track guys...

[Moto-Brian]

So, since NinjaNick has his panties in a bunch over all the track talk around here , I figured we start a thread to talk about all the dumbass street guys you track guys run across.

Now, let's start this off right.

***I AM IN NO WAY SAYING STREET ONLY RIDERS ARE ASSHOLES OR ARE SHIT RIDERS.***

See, folks, guys like NinjaNick get all huffy and puffy because they cannot understand what track days do for street guys. He simply believes that he and the people he rides with are good enough and don't need to develop their skills more. In other words, they are happy with where they are at and that's fine. However, these kinds of street guys also are the first to tell you how fast they are, how they will school others when it comes to street riding, and how the track guys aren't as fast in the "real world of street riding" as they are.

So, I figured you all who have done either track days, raced, or are currently racing could add a few stories of either misconceptions or funny stories about the badass street guys looking like douche bags...

I'll start:

I didn't start riding motorcycles until I was 19 years old. I started racing when I was 23 years old. Too old to make an impression, but I picked stuff up pretty quick and did "OK". Nothing great by any means, but one thing I learned when I played baseball was that no matter how good you think you are, you can ALWAYS learn and develop more. Always.

I was a street only rider for about 5-6 years before I started racing. I worked at a dealership from 92-99 and through that time, I rode a LOT of street miles. When I started racing, I was also riding street. Did a LOT of stupid shit. A lot...

I have done about everything I think is dumb now that I see riders still doing today. My goal now is to help the street guys. Not get them from doing stupid stuff, but to help them get better so they can adapt and be able to have a reserve in hand should a bad situation arise.

I've been on and off the street in the last 14 years. I prefer not to ride street due to a LOT of variables that I hate not having control over. However, I will ride with a group and typically stay either well back or up front to avoid anyone I don't trust.

What I find isn't so much that these guys are arrogant and cocky, I feel they are simply under qualified. I think they are more over confident than anything. That over confidence leads to some serious issues. I've seen guys make mistakes that had they had more instructing, they could have easily gotten out of that situation. Not everything is under your control. Hell, I've crashed my brains out because I pushed too hard and didn't have the ability to do what I was trying to do.

Point is that in all my responses on sites like this, I simply try and point out some issues. It may possibly help someone out or it may also prompt someone to take a course or to get to the track.

NinjaNick and guys like him have tried track days. They typically are too arrogant or too full of pride to accept they need help. When they cannot do track days well enough (In their eyes), they give up and blow it off and make jokes and side talk it like it is stupid. When, in fact, had they gone to an instructor, been open minded and swallowed some pride, we could have made them better riders.

Street guys can benefit from track days. How? easy. They can learn things in a controlled environment where if they make mistakes, the likelihood of death or severe injury is lessened. We're not asking guys to take chances, but what we are able to do is get riders to push a little bit close to their limit and develop them to be able to extend that limit higher. A higher limit level allows the rider to ride with a reserve on the street. They'll be faster and things can get seriously out of control, but another lesson learned on the track is - PATIENCE. Patience and being aware of one's surroundings and what is going on will allow a rider to evaluate and adjust accordingly. Those riders who don't develop that ability will get in too deep and the situation they will be placed in is well above their ability level.

Now, I also know a TON of street only guys who have an amazing amount of talent and an abundant amount of common sense. They don't ride over their heads and they are very aware and even a bit tentative. I like getting these guys to track days because I also think conservative and timid riders need to experience being scared. this will allow them to not panic and should they get into something outside their comfort level, they will be better prepared.

I don't care if guys don't come to the track. What I do care about is the fact that the street guys like NinjNick who blow it off, who say they're great street riders, and who try and paint a picture that street riding takes more skills or that it is somehow completely different than what track riding is.

It is - to a degree. More to the point that track riding is more controlled in terms of environment, but as far as what occurs on that bike? It's exactly the same. I can guarantee that guys like him haven't lost the front, haven't spun the rear like what occurs on the track, etc. They haven't had those experiences that come with riding on the edge.

Now, they have had issues like listed above, but they don't learn from it. They think they have and they think they have it mastered, but they don't. A rear stepping out is because the road is dirty, the tires were cold, etc. The amount of stepping out the rear does isn't big at all, but it is something that they may have experienced, but they probably don't know what to do should it occur again.

Basically, my goal is to educate. The street guys who come to the track days leave either feeling like NinjaNick where they are too good for something they aren't willing to give an honest shot to. Or, they leave with a little more under their belts. A little more knowledge. Guys like Flounder and Yota whom I've met here (and countless others who were street only) can chime in and tell us how it has made them as street riders.

I just find it comical when a guy states he can ride a 600 and a ZX14 to the same pace. That tells ANY credited rider that the rider in question doesn't have advanced skills. Actually, it doesn't take advanced skills to tell the difference, but it takes advanced skills to understand them...

I hope guys like NinjaNick change their tune. I'd welcome them as easily as I welcome any of the guys at the track days we do. Ask Yota and Flounder whom I have offered help to from this board. There are others and I apologize as I suck at names, but overall, we give a fair shake to those wanting it. Those that don't and think it is a waste of money, we have a lot of fun at their expense...

So, take it away...

[Chrisoh]

When I got my 97 TL-S I picked a road and hit it every day leaning just a little bit further each time or trying different things to see what the bike did (now mind you this is probably with 1" 1/2 of chicken strip on the rear). I had a buddy who had ridden for 20 years and has ridden every bad Suzuki made.

He used to ride with some former racers and had to work to keep up on his sport bike and them on their goldwings (70s goldwings).

We both had 97 TL-S at the time and we started going to KY and I started to follow him and mimic his riding and learned a lot.

I started doing trackdays in 2001 and no matter what we tried we couldn't talk him into the track, so then I started racing in 2006. We finally got him on the track in 2006 since he stepped down to the Buell XB-12 firebolt to start trackdays. I never rode with him in a session in 2006, but at the start of 2007 he made the jump back to a 06 GSXR 1000 and we had a day at Mid OH. Now in his defense it was his first time at Mid OH and only 3rd session.

On my 03 600 I saw him as I entered Turn one and thought, Ok i'll just catch him at the exit of the keyhole and draft down the backstraight.

Well before I knew it I was right behind him before the Chicane, he sat up and started to brake, and I just stayed on the gas then sat up and just threw the 600 into the chican and continued on my way.

Now even to this day when we ride the street neither one of us will leave the other. My limit I set on the street is pretty much his limit as well.

[Moto-Brian]

You coming to the April Mid-O? I think Drew and I are heading to Putnam, too...

[patcbr600rr]

umm track riders are some of the fastest people i know, and safer on the street to ride with.

some asses that think they can ride the STREETAS the best don't know control or how to handle an ass puckering moment as good as track riders.

most the people who talk shit on track riders are the new guys who just bought their first 600 or 636 and think they are the fastest shit on earth. when really they have the perfect track bike being so small and tiny in the engine.

i think it is the "i cant let anyone tell me anything" syndrome.

ohh and if any street riders wanna talk crap lets go to any parking lot or circle ville go kart track and use my nsr50 for lap times. there is not enough motor to make up for undeveloped skills

[patcbr600rr]

oh BTW if he wants to run on the street i have something for him.

I'm so great, i piss excellence

[Moto-Brian]

umm track riders are some of the fastest people i know, and safer on the street to ride with.

some asses that think they can ride the STREETAS the best don't know control or how to handle an ass puckering moment as good as track riders.

most the people who talk shit on track riders are the new guys who just bought their first 600 or 636 and think they are the fastest shit on earth. when really they have the perfect track bike being so small and tiny in the engine.

i think it is the "i cant let anyone tell me anything" syndrome.

ohh and if any street riders wanna talk crap lets go to any parking lot or circle ville go kart track and use my nsr50 for lap times. there is not enough motor to make up for undeveloped skills

Good hearing it come from someone else. By the way, Absolutely HILLARIOUS avatar!!

[Chrisoh]

Nah I am heading down to Barber April 12-13 with a top off the 11 at GMD Atl to setup for the BT slicks.

Then a week off, then down to Nashville for first race.

I may be up for helping in the pits at Putnam for the FT race... I'll still spill the gas in your lap

My only day at putnam this year looks like June 8th with Ducati Indy.

[Chrisoh]

Nick's problem is that when any of us track guys say something it only has to do with what you do on track. That we only give advice for those who get on the track.. He bit my head off when I was talking about standard riding technique and used Aaron Yates as an example of best case senario...

Nick knows he has a lot to learn "on the track" but seems/comes off as to think he knows everything there is to know about the street. That nothing you learn on the track translates to the street which is why when any of us track guys say anything it is only track knowledge.

[Moto-Brian]

Nah I am heading down to Barber April 12-13 with a top off the 11 at GMD Atl to setup for the BT slicks.

Then a week off, then down to Nashville for first race.

I may be up for helping in the pits at Putnam for the FT race... I'll still spill the gas in your lap

My only day at putnam this year looks like June 8th with Ducati Indy.

Not 100% on Putnam FT. I was refering to teh STT day there on the 4th of April. Maybe that's the 7th... I don't know...

So, you wanting to ditch the 2006 GSXR? What goodies you have on her? Anything race related? I really want an 07, but I'd consider a well prepped 06... PM me and give me details...

[Chrisoh]

Not 100% on Putnam FT. I was refering to teh STT day there on the 4th of April. Maybe that's the 7th... I don't know...

So, you wanting to ditch the 2006 GSXR? What goodies you have on her? Anything race related? I really want an 07, but I'd consider a well prepped 06... PM me and give me details...

April 1st is sunday I think, so yeah the 7th is the STT day you and Drew were looking to hit I think.

Nah my street is stock setup. Just a M4 pipe is all I have done to it. Still on the stock sucky BT 014s. I will be throwing my used Pirelli DOTs that came with the race bike on it maybe mid may.

[gixxie750]

I only started riding in 2005. I had a 97 TLS also and wa tearing up bacroads all over ky. In 2006 i thought i had it all mastered and was feeling like a superhero on the bike. Then i pulled into a gas station and saw 4 riders with #'s on their bikes. I walked over and started talking with them and found they all raced. Thinking i could probably race i asked them if i could join them on my fav road(165) thinking i could hang. Well i took off like a rocket and was slaying the road when suddenly 2 bikes passed me on the inside of a high speed turn. It was a compleatly clean pass,but it scared the crap out of me. After that i decided to hit the track and Putnam was going to be my first. I could not believe what you can do with a sportbike once its on a track. You can run into corners way faster and slingshot out and not worry about crashing into a guard rail or a bunch of trees. The track actually made me a slower street rider because i know what my bike can do,but now i know when to use it. The track is a priceless tool to learn the ins and outs of a sportbike. The street did help me learn the basics and i have had allot of gravel,oil,misc animals and teach me the hard way how to react. The track is just so much more safe than street riding and most likely when u go down you are ok,but bikes are a whole nother story.

[progrmr]

I only started riding in 2005. I had a 97 TLS also and wa tearing up bacroads all over ky. In 2006 i thought i had it all mastered and was feeling like a superhero on the bike. Then i pulled into a gas station and saw 4 riders with #'s on their bikes. I walked over and started talking with them and found they all raced. Thinking i could probably race i asked them if i could join them on my fav road(165) thinking i could hang. Well i took off like a rocket and was slaying the road when suddenly 2 bikes passed me on the inside of a high speed turn. It was a compleatly clean pass,but it scared the crap out of me. After that i decided to hit the track and Putnam was going to be my first. I could not believe what you can do with a sportbike once its on a track. You can run into corners way faster and slingshot out and not worry about crashing into a guard rail or a bunch of trees. The track actually made me a slower street rider because i know what my bike can do,but now i know when to use it. The track is a priceless tool to learn the ins and outs of a sportbike. The street did help me learn the basics and i have had allot of gravel,oil,misc animals and teach me the hard way how to react. The track is just so much more safe than street riding and most likely when u go down you are ok,but bikes are a whole nother story.

Excellent post. I've never done a track day, but I have no doubt that my street skills would be far better if I could get the time.

Well, that and I crashed/sold my ZX7 and now I'm riding a EX500 Hey - all I know is that I feel comfortable on a bike again! I don't think I'm meant to enjoy a fire-breathing 750 - to tempting to push my personal envelope.

At least for now

[playerpro153]

Well, after 2 track days, my cornering speed went up about 80%.... Particularly the harder corners when you really have to get off the bike to lean it in. A lot of the street guys will shit talk they ability, but fail to realize how effective proper cornering technique is. The take pride in their ability to race through traffic faster, which in turn is more reason for them to get themselves killed. I don't shit talk people, but if they start it, I let my bike speak for me. -ignore the accident thread when I say this. I stay aware of my risks, and ride within my ability, but ability increases with experience.

I will for sure be at the track later this season once I get a track bike setup. If intermediate is as slow as it was last time I went, I'll join you guys in the expert class. It's hard riding through a field that has lap times 10+ seconds slower then me. I know the experts will put me to work.

[gixxie750]

expert class varies from track day to track day. I wish that there was a way to organize people better at the track. My problem is that a cocky guy can walk in from the street and say he is an expert and ride expert class and then cant even hold a pace and will cockblock you in turns. I swear the people with 1000s think they are experts just because they have a 1000. Lizard do you see this happening too? The cocky people are not only on the street but come to track days too lol.

[Moto-Brian]

expert class varies from track day to track day. I wish that there was a way to organize people better at the track. My problem is that a cocky guy can walk in from the street and say he is an expert and ride expert class and then cant even hold a pace and will cockblock you in turns. I swear the people with 1000s think they are experts just because they have a 1000. Lizard do you see this happening too? The cocky people are not only on the street but come to track days too lol.

Definitely. We see a LOT of arrogant riders in track days. As stated in my first post, guys come in and try a track day, don't do well and tell everyone it was a waste of money. It's funny because they didn't get anything out of it typically because they won't listen to criticism or suggestions...

The whole self critique is something that is good and bad. The good is that we allow customers to feel like they have a choice. It is something that NESBA, for example doesn't allow and outside of a certified race license, you don't usually get into their expert class...

That said, we police the groups pretty well, I think. Some slip through as we cannot watch everyone. I try and weave through the group to watch everyone, but I cannot pull aside a guy who is running 1:50 if he's smooth and controlled.

I see a LOT of guys on liter bikes running slow and out of control. I also see guys on liter bikes riding rather well. It is an ability deal - not a CC issue all the time. I have also seen a few guys running good times, but are completely on the edge and doing stuff that is dangerous. Drew and I typically run :36s to :38s on a normal day. We can pull :33s, but it gets a little sketchy with the traffic. The :36-:38 range is comfortable for us, but is sometimes pretty "balls out" for some. We get a few guys that clip :36-:38s on their lap timers, but they are sawing people off, blowing corners, riding out of control, etc. I have more of a problem with those guys than the slower guys.

We've pulled a few fast guys for being too sloppy and dangerous. Told them to slow down and ride within their means or they will be told to stop riding for the day.

We also move people around. "I" riders up to "A" or even down to "N" and "A" riders down to "I" at times.

I think we are going to try doing a NON mandatory classroom deal for the "A" group due to these issues. i think it will be well received and it will also be good food for thought for some good "A" riders to listen to... It would be 3 classroom sessions pertaining to braking, cornering and bike set-up. After lunch, it is pretty much an on your own deal. No limits out on the track - just information to try out and think over...

[Moto-Brian]

Well, after 2 track days, my cornering speed went up about 80%.... Particularly the harder corners when you really have to get off the bike to lean it in. A lot of the street guys will shit talk they ability, but fail to realize how effective proper cornering technique is. The take pride in their ability to race through traffic faster, which in turn is more reason for them to get themselves killed. I don't shit talk people, but if they start it, I let my bike speak for me. -ignore the accident thread when I say this. I stay aware of my risks, and ride within my ability, but ability increases with experience.

I will for sure be at the track later this season once I get a track bike setup. If intermediate is as slow as it was last time I went, I'll join you guys in the expert class. It's hard riding through a field that has lap times 10+ seconds slower then me. I know the experts will put me to work.

You won't be able to likely move up if you start in "I". Reason being is that they are pretty much booked solid and we can't add riders due to safety.

I'd just start in "A" and if you are too slow or too much of a hazzard, we'll move you back down. Or, we'll try and work with you to get you sorted. Sounds that if you are running 10 seconds a lap quicker than the average "I" rider, you need to be in "A" anyways...

Sign up for "A" and try it out.

[gixxie750]

U are with stt right? Those times you posted from mid ohio? I ran a 1.50 in the rain there,but never got a good dry dry lap. I feel like i could fly there,but not had the chance yet.

[Chrisoh]

U are with stt right? Those times you posted from mid ohio? I ran a 1.50 in the rain there,but never got a good dry dry lap. I feel like i could fly there,but not had the chance yet.

1:50 in a good rain or damp track? If you can hit 1:50 in the rain that is damn good. Heck the WERA Experts in 2 years ago were close to 2:00 mark in the rain on the new surface...

I was about the 2:05 my first time in the rain and with rain tires.. I think I could work down to the about the 1:55 range, but not sure on the 1000 as that will be a workout.

Lizard I think that class session will help. At Mid OH you guys are behind the 8-ball especially the weekend days since it is such a top notch track your I fills up and some who shouldn't be in A are, but with such a full day we just have to make do (not complaining just stating what I see).

I am one that I get faster as I get clean laps. I can start out in the 1:39 range on my first clean lap then drop into the 38s but most times running that pace I am already coming up on the first group of slower riders.

I think 36s were doable on my 03 600 if I could get enough clean laps to get into a good rhythem...

[Moto-Brian]

U are with stt right? Those times you posted from mid ohio? I ran a 1.50 in the rain there,but never got a good dry dry lap. I feel like i could fly there,but not had the chance yet.

Yes, Mid-Ohio. But again, track day pace... Race pace is obviously a lot quicker. Not a lot, but quicker...

1:50 in the rain? Dude, that's getting it done in the rain/wet. Like Chris stated, the top experts in the wet were 2:00 flat. I don't ride Mid-O in the wet...

[Moto-Brian]

1:50 in a good rain or damp track? If you can hit 1:50 in the rain that is damn good. Heck the WERA Experts in 2 years ago were close to 2:00 mark in the rain on the new surface...

I was about the 2:05 my first time in the rain and with rain tires.. I think I could work down to the about the 1:55 range, but not sure on the 1000 as that will be a workout.

Lizard I think that class session will help. At Mid OH you guys are behind the 8-ball especially the weekend days since it is such a top notch track your I fills up and some who shouldn't be in A are, but with such a full day we just have to make do (not complaining just stating what I see).

I am one that I get faster as I get clean laps. I can start out in the 1:39 range on my first clean lap then drop into the 38s but most times running that pace I am already coming up on the first group of slower riders.

I think 36s were doable on my 03 600 if I could get enough clean laps to get into a good rhythem...

That's the thing. I know you can go faster. You know it, too. However, what I do each time is to focus on certain spots on the track. Focus on the Keyhole, off of 7, the Carousel, etc. Reason being is that you may have a fast lap time in the works, but 3/4 the way around, you get slammed with traffic and cannot make it by w/o an aggressive race pass.

We'd pull you in a minute if you did that... But, you get the idea. I think Drew has seen the light about that, as well. You just cannot safely try and string fast consistent laps together w/o causing issues with the other riders.

It's also great practice for any endurance racers. It really lends a good amount of traffic to learn to pass through cleanly and safely. Endurance is a matter of attrition at times and getting practice going through the crowd is something that can help...

[gixxie750]

It was a blast! I had to ride considering i paid and didnt want to miss out onnt he track. When i say it was wet i mean it was wet all morning and the rain stopped,but a majority of the track stayed wet accept that weird shiney blk top that dries real fast,but is slicker than snot in the rain. I really want to ride it dry!

[Chrisoh]

Yeah Most of my focus is always getting in and out of the keyhole as that is where I feel I loose most of my time. I feel I am decent through the chicane, since each time I try for that little extra bit I end up drifting both tires pulling it into the last apex.

I feel the keyhole is really big on a good lap, and I seem to struggle finishing the corner and getting a good drive (rider error).

I think I have made one bad pass at Mid OH, I made thought a guy was going to slow down a lot more for the chicane then he did and I had setup on the outside. So I went in late and on the brakes wide since I Didin't want to saw off his front end.

[schmuckingham]

I would love to do some track riding but i dont know enough about it or riding to begin with. Yes i am a noob or squid whatever you want to call it and ill be the first to admit it but i would like to get better. Since i was young i have always asked questions and like to try new things so if someone could take me under their wing and teach me to be a better rider i would be all for it.

[Moto-Brian]

I would love to do some track riding but i dont know enough about it or riding to begin with. Yes i am a noob or squid whatever you want to call it and ill be the first to admit it but i would like to get better. Since i was young i have always asked questions and like to try new things so if someone could take me under their wing and teach me to be a better rider i would be all for it.

Thus, what seperates you from riders like NinjaNick... You are welcome to join us at Mid-O and even if you can't, come by since it isn't all that far from you.

By the way, wasn't I talking with you over those FZR forks? My buddy has yet to get back with me. I think I forgot all about it, honestly. If he has them, consider them yours for nothing. Sorry for it being so late and all...

[yotaman88210]

Jeez, I dont even know where to start. Basically, getttin out on the track was the BEST thing that has ever happened to me. Ive been riding the street since I was 17, im 22 now. To be honest, when I was 17/18 of course I thought I was a badass. I wasnt, I constantly did stupid shit, constantly. I made all kinds of bad decisions, and when I started to pucker in a situation, I had no clue what to do.

I just started riding on the track last season. I think I did 5 or 6 days. All at mid-ohio. I started in novice, of course, because that is where EVERYONE, EVERYONE in my opinion should start. Even if youre really really fast on the street and a good rider. There is A LOT to take in your first time on the track. TONS of things to pay attention to. Also, the classrooom sessions will really help... as long as you pay attention and dont think in your head "Pfff, I know all this, Im jsut gonna sit here and act like im listening." NO you fucking TOOL, pay attention and you WILL learn something.... Busides, the group one and two of the novice sessions are pretty fast. Id say the 1st group in novice is running as fast as 30% or more of the intermediate riders by the end of the day.

So, I did novice for I think the first 3 times I went. The 1st time I rode in group 3. then everytime I came back I asked to be put in group one. So after that I felt I was ready to jump up. I signed up for "I" next on a Thurs with the AMA guys. This was perfect for me. The I and the A were riding together that day. The best time I ran was a 1:47. Not too terrible. My duc is no where near as fast as a 600. I top out at 140 on the back straight and Im looking for 7th gear... its never there for some reason.

I then did two more days in the Advanced group. Matt Carr came over and did one with me for shits and giggles. He helped me a lot on my line. We figured out I needed a little more pre load too since I was faster now. BTW, he is a suspension GOD... go to Ducati of Indianapolis for your Suspension needs!! You wont be disappointed.

Anyway... now Im so addicted to the track Im gonna go get the race license and start that process. Got a 900ss with a 944 motor that is getting rebuilt as soon I get some more cash together. Ducati of Indy is gonna set me all up.