Obama on new gun control legislation after the Colorado shooting...

[buildit]

Guns ain't the problem. The ghetto is.

Ohhhhh, the PC police are on there way now. Three weeks of Obama diversity training for you!!

[swingset]

http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx

Spree stopped by a gun. I blame our gun culture.

[kawi kid]

Swingset that is getting you a standing ovation.

[John]

Majority of guns used in crimes? Stolen.

do you have a source for this claim, or for any of your others?

according to the ATF most guns used in crimes are NOT stolen.

in this article:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

the ATF agent says that only 10-15% are stolen. the majority are actually bought through straw sales. the next biggest source he says is corrupt FFL holders. he makes the point that if you want a gun and you want it now, its going to take too long to steal it.

here is a link to an ATF report (albeit from 1994) detailing sources of guns used in crimes.

http://policeissues.com/Sources.pdf

in the other studies they reference (table 1) it looks like the top place to get a gun is to borrow it from friends or family.

if you have a source showing that most are actually stolen, please share.

Edited July 27, 2012 by John

[buildit]

I thought most illegal guns were supplied by "fast and furious" curtesy Eric Holder

[Exarch]

Nannanananannanananana Batman Batman Batman, that is all...

[magley64]

The original Batman used a gun. Just sayin'...

bat gun?

stolen and black markey guns are NOT the guns used in crimes by and large...

but AGAIN, I'm not proposing outlawing guns...

So go have fun burning that straw man down and come back to discuss my ACTUAL position...that this obsession with guns that many people have simplifies the process for obtaining them for everyone...

What use does a gun have other than to harm or intimidate via the threat of harm?

[swingset]

do you have a source for this claim, or for any of your others?

according to the ATF most guns used in crimes are NOT stolen.

in this article:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

the ATF agent says that only 10-15% are stolen. the majority are actually bought through straw sales. the next biggest source he says is corrupt FFL holders. he makes the point that if you want a gun and you want it now, its going to take too long to steal it.

here is a link to an ATF report (albeit from 1994) detailing sources of guns used in crimes.

http://policeissues.com/Sources.pdf

in the other studies they reference (table 1) it looks like the top place to get a gun is to borrow it from friends or family.

if you have a source showing that most are actually stolen, please share.

Actually, you are right and I was going off of memory but when I read the Knox Report that detailed this it said "obtained illegally" and not "stolen". Just re-checked the magazine I read it in (sitting next to my shitter, hehe).

Given that straw sales, or possession when barred (felons, Lautenberg act folks, etc), under-age possession (family) plus theft that explains the majority number....but I concede I was wrong it is not stolen although the end result is nearly the same...people obtaining guns who are otherwise in violation of the law for doing so.

Legal gun owners are not committing the violent gun crimes. My data sucked but my point stands.

Edited July 27, 2012 by swingset

[magley64]

let's also remember illegal and difficult are 2 different things...

lots of people speed, it's illegal but easy, not a lot of people steal money out of bank vaults...it's also illegal, but difficult.

[swingset]

bat gun?

stolen and black markey guns are NOT the guns used in crimes by and large... See my post above.

but AGAIN, I'm not proposing outlawing guns...

No, you just want us to all disarm ourselves, voluntarily, after we stop caring about personal defense. Genius idea is genius.

So go have fun burning that straw man down and come back to discuss my ACTUAL position...that this obsession with guns that many people have simplifies the process for obtaining them for everyone...

Criminals will always be able to get them, easily, even in places where they are tightly restricted. This point is not a point. All you do when you lessen the availability of them is lessen the availability to the law abiding. Or, you change the nature of crime to assault and non-firearm weapons (England's violent crime rate is telling of this).

Do you think that reverting to a more dark-age system of violence is fair? Would you have women fighting off rapists with fists? The elderly resisting robbery and muggings with canes? The handicapped, the homosexuals, the minorities assaulted or killed fighting back with sticks and rocks? Again, I'll ask you....since on a huge order of magnitude more people use guns defensively than offensively, why the obsession with the bad that guns do? Why are you so blind to the other side of it? This is where you're emotional, and not rational. This is where your hysteria and bigotry is so utterly apparent. This is where you're showing your cards.

What use does a gun have other than to harm or intimidate via the threat of harm?

Well, seeing as I have a safe full of guns that do nothing at all other than recreationally target shoot and are used in competition regularly, I reel off all kinds of things guns can do that have nothing to do with harm or violence. Last week my daughter and I shot a father/child silhouette NRA match together. I'm confused, was she supposed to be intimidating or threatening the targets?

But, the real purpose of a gun is to rapidly project a piece of lead. Nothing more. It's intent is utterly dependent on the user. If I have malice in my heart, it's to intimidate or harm you. If I am benevolent and kind, it's to defend you. If I'm a target shooter, it's to put holes in paper. If I'm a collector, it's to invest in the worth of an inanimate object. If I'm a hunter its....

Well, you get the point. Or, obviously you don't get the point because you're either a: stupid as fuck or b: predetermined to see only evil in a piece of metal.

It has to be one or the other. So, which is it?

[swingset]

let's also remember illegal and difficult are 2 different things...

Pointless point is pointless. Making weapons more difficult to come by only impedes people whose motivation to do harm is negligible. If you want to murder someone (which is a very very big thing), or engage in armed robbery, or commit a spree killing, getting a gun through even moderate hassle like theft is a very very small thing. This is why in countries where guns are very regulated (Mexico) they're still used in robberies, killings, and gang-violence. The culture of violence makes them a commodity. In Switzerland, where they are rampant, gun violence isn't even on the radar. Why? It's obviously not the presence of guns, every adult male has an assault rifle in his house and guns are a national past time. It's not availability, it's not the "gun culture", it's the culture of violence.

Not the tool, it's the man.

This is why in countries like Japan where guns were never really readily available, they can still be obtained if the need is great enough, but the violence will happen regardless of the tool (baseball bats, swords, knives, claw hammers).

The only people who will not jump through difficult hoops are those who have a moderate interest in obtaining a gun, or those whose need is the least...and that's not a criminal.

You reason like a child. Yet, you're very dogged. So, I both admire your tenacity and shake my head at your inability to understand basic human nature or the lessons of history.

Your solution to gun violence is to make them voluntarily disappear so there's no more gun violence. This doesn't negate the violence, it only changes the nature of it and skews it towards the young and the powerful, and makes the victims all the more helpless.

And, it's about as utopian and blissfully naive as wishing for unicorns and fairies.

Edited July 27, 2012 by swingset

[fizzer]

bat gun?

...

What use does a gun have other than to harm or intimidate via the threat of harm?

Target shooting, which is all kinds of awesome.

[grapesmuggler27]

Nannanananannanananana Batman Batman Batman, that is all...

[swingset]

Target shooting, which is all kinds of awesome.

True that.

Speaking of perception, here's my daughter when she was about 10 during a plate match.

To the uninformed, the gun-fearing, the emotional idiot (you know who you are)...it's a little girl shooting a dangerous "assault rifle". That's some people's default, because they see a small girl holding a scary black gun with vertical grips and tactical optics.

The truth is, and what's really happening is she's shooting a semi-automatic .22lr rifle that she is very safe and proficient with, absolutely the same in function and lethality as this:

Actually, that Marlin is more deadly...as it has a bigger capacity...but I digress.

My kiddo is also not there alone, she was surrounded by adults and children under strict supervision on a closed range, and all of the children are taught strict gun-handling rules and closely monitored for safety. Their targets are foam plates, their goal is accuracy and fun. Their reward is satisfaction, competition, relaxing time spent with their mothers and fathers on a nice fall day. (proud papa says she came in 3rd that day in ages 10-12, out of 15 kids...on her first match ever). Why does she use an AR15 style .22? Because it's ergonomically great for kids. Small grips, collapsible stock, light and adaptable...quickly switchable for many configurations, even for me to use. It's a great tool, that does everything well. I suspect that's why it's the most popular weapon sold, not because it's being bought for millions of spree shootings. It's fun.

My daughter is now 16, and is an accomplished smallbore shooter. Ask her what guns are to her, and she'll tell you they're her sport. She's not got a violent or reactionary bone in her body...she still has teddy bears on her bed, but she enjoys the discipline and focus of shooting. It's her zen time, where she gets to do something she excels at. That's all, she has no interest at all in defensive or combat shooting, and that's fine she's still a kid she's got parents who watch out for bumps in the night.

For her, and most gun owners, the joy of owning a gun isn't in the destruction or potential violence it's just a fun hobby...that also serves a very old survival instinct that was so important that our nation was built upon it and included it as the second most important right for the government to never impose upon. It's not even really about militias, it's about survival. The oppression of tyranny, even by the own words of the men who wrote the constitution isn't just from the King of England. It can come from the police, from a criminal, from a mob. Ask the blacks of the KKK south about tyranny. Ask Matthew Shepard about tyranny. It's not just for shooting at armies, and that's why the 2nd says "the right of the people" and not the "right of the militia" or the "right of the standing army". It was meant so that all of us can survive, if we have no other means and have exhausted all other methods of obtaining freedom from an oppressor....whether that's a corrupt local police force, or a criminal, or even a kid with red hair and a joker obsession.

If you look at my daughter and see violence, or future criminal, or anything other than a little girl having fun with her dad, your lenses are broke and your bias is seeing something that isn't there.

[serpentracer]

here's another outstanding 2nd amendment supporter

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/source-md-mass-shooting-plot-foiled

[swingset]

here's another outstanding 2nd amendment supporter

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/source-md-mass-shooting-plot-foiled

He wanted attention it sounds like, if he was a typical spree shooter he wouldn't have broadcasted his intentions to his supposed victims when focus on this issue is at a zenith. He also never hurt anyone, just spouted off. Not a shot fired. We have no clue whether he would have ever done it, either. Stupid? You bet. Typical gun owner? Not even close. He could have just made a pipe bomb and killed all his co-workers without a gun. But the gun is the bad guy, I get it.

How about a local man, paralyzed and bedridden, who uses his gun to defend himself?

http://www.newarkadvocate.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012207230302

You post me a bad apple who shot his mouth off, and I'll see you with someone who is alive because they were prepared and armed.

Got anything else that's supposed to make us feel bad about guns?

Edited July 27, 2012 by swingset

[CleaveTheGreat]

True that.

Speaking of perception, here's my daughter when she was about 10 during a plate match.

To the uninformed, the gun-fearing, the emotional idiot (you know who you are)...it's a little girl shooting a dangerous "assault rifle". That's some people's default, because they see a small girl holding a scary black gun with vertical grips and tactical optics.

The truth is, and what's really happening is she's shooting a semi-automatic .22lr rifle that she is very safe and proficient with, absolutely the same in function and lethality as this:

Actually, that Marlin is more deadly...as it has a bigger capacity...but I digress.

My kiddo is also not there alone, she was surrounded by adults and children under strict supervision on a closed range, and all of the children are taught strict gun-handling rules and closely monitored for safety. Their targets are foam plates, their goal is accuracy and fun. Their reward is satisfaction, competition, relaxing time spent with their mothers and fathers on a nice fall day. (proud papa says she came in 3rd that day in ages 10-12, out of 15 kids...on her first match ever). Why does she use an AR15 style .22? Because it's ergonomically great for kids. Small grips, collapsible stock, light and adaptable...quickly switchable for many configurations, even for me to use. It's a great tool, that does everything well. I suspect that's why it's the most popular weapon sold, not because it's being bought for millions of spree shootings. It's fun.

My daughter is now 16, and is an accomplished smallbore shooter. Ask her what guns are to her, and she'll tell you they're her sport. She's not got a violent or reactionary bone in her body...she still has teddy bears on her bed, but she enjoys the discipline and focus of shooting. It's her zen time, where she gets to do something she excels at. That's all, she has no interest at all in defensive or combat shooting, and that's fine she's still a kid she's got parents who watch out for bumps in the night.

For her, and most gun owners, the joy of owning a gun isn't in the destruction or potential violence it's just a fun hobby...that also serves a very old survival instinct that was so important that our nation was built upon it and included it as the second most important right for the government to never impose upon. It's not even really about militias, it's about survival. The oppression of tyranny, even by the own words of the men who wrote the constitution isn't just from the King of England. It can come from the police, from a criminal, from a mob. Ask the blacks of the KKK south about tyranny. Ask Matthew Shepard about tyranny. It's not just for shooting at armies, and that's why the 2nd says "the right of the people" and not the "right of the militia" or the "right of the standing army". It was meant so that all of us can survive, if we have no other means and have exhausted all other methods of obtaining freedom from an oppressor....whether that's a corrupt local police force, or a criminal, or even a kid with red hair and a joker obsession.

If you look at my daughter and see violence, or future criminal, or anything other than a little girl having fun with her dad, your lenses are broke and your bias is seeing something that isn't there.

I can't rep you any more or I would.

[serpentracer]

and for every statistic you post about someone who is alive I can show you 2 times as many innocent people shot and killed. you have no point. guns need to be taken out of the population. it would end 99% of gun related everything. I'm a hell of a lot less intimidated by someone with a knife than a gun.

[swingset]

Rep for Swingset. Nice pic. I bet she's a pistol at the range.

She's outshooting me now, and that sucks.

[Pokey]

and for every statistic you post about someone who is alive I can show you 2 times as many innocent people shot and killed. you have no point. guns need to be taken out of the population. it would end 99% of gun related everything. I'm a hell of a lot less intimidated by someone with a knife than a gun.

Ok.....lets see that proof. I see allot of ignorance in your words, and to me that is exactly what it is. And I will bring my gun to a knife fight every single time.

[swingset]

and for every statistic you post about someone who is alive I can show you 2 times as many innocent people shot and killed. you have no point. guns need to be taken out of the population. it would end 99% of gun related everything. I'm a hell of a lot less intimidated by someone with a knife than a gun.

I have no point? Are you fucking blind? Already gave you all the info in this thread, but you come up with this position?

According to Gary Kleck's peer-reviewed research, there are about 1,500,000 defensive gun uses per year (adjusted over nearly a decade of research and data). You can not quantitively state how many lives would be saved by that number, as the end result of the conflict was often stopped before a death occurred, but assuming it's only a tiny fraction, it's still way fucking higher than the total number of gun murders....most of which are gang & drug related, black on black shootings in the inner cities.

9,369 murders by guns in the United States.

Taking that FBI-provided statistic into account, you're far more likely to repel violent crime with a gun than ever die by one...unless you're a gang-banger who's dealing drugs. I say that, knowing full well you're terrified of guns and suffer from being unarmed. So, in that case you'd likely meet your demise without the tools of self defense and I'm sure your last thought will be "well, I'm sure glad I was unarmed".

Or, maybe you can have a second to spare and dial 911 and summon a man to visit violence on your attacker on your behalf, and congratulate yourself on your civilized attitude, having neither the courage or determination for seeing to your own safety, but expecting someone else to take the risk and responsibility for you. That's very noble.

Take your histrionics and fear and find someone stupid to lay it on, because it's not going to make a dent with people who have actually studied this issue and have some first hand experience.

[Exarch]

[swingset]

BTW, if serpent's anti-gun world existed, and we had no guns the paralyzed man in Johnstown would have just had to lay there while his attacker did as he pleased, crushed his skull with a hammer, or stabbed him, or maybe something even more civilized like light him on fire or make him watch his wife get raped and stabbed to death like the college kids in Boston a few years ago.

Home invaders would face no opposition, and would choose their victims by physical dominance. Women, the elderly, short people, handicapped....all prey to young, strong men in groups.

Because it's the guns, you see, that's the problem. That's why Switzerland is the most violent place on earth.

Stupid ass liberals. Wade through knowledge their whole lives and end up in Retardville.

[serpentracer]

tell your side to all the families of murdered family members killed by guns. you only want a gun because

1. you're a pussy and can't fight

2. you think it makes you cool

[Pokey]

Can't rep you Swingset.... damnit!!!!!!

Edited July 27, 2012 by Pokey