nautical1 Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Hey everyone, I got a k7 600 that I recently purchased. I finished doing an oil change which required taking the left frame slider off and when taking it out I realized it wasn't coming out easy. Once it was out I inspected the bolt and realized there was some metal from the hole on the end of the bolt. I'm assuming the previous owner tightened the bolt too much and now the slider bolt doesn't want to go in very easy. So my question is, can I retap the hole and clean up the metal off the bolt or is it not that easy? This is also the type of frame slider where the fairing needs cut. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Chasing the hole with a tap probably isn't going to get you far. Odds are it was cross threaded the first time which mean the hole is now crap. If you really want to fix it for good, leave that fairing off and cut a hole in it for the slider. Then get a helicoil kit and fix that hole on the engine.I have some first hand experience with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 I also have a kit exactly for this since I had to do mine earlier this season. I want to say it's an M10 if I recall correctly. It is easy, but you have to know to do a couple things to get proper access to the hole/boss on the head. The problem is the drill required to open up the hole is larger than that in the frame so you can't just go straight in at it. The only way I found to get good access to it was to remove all but the rear lower engine mount bolt, remove the airbox completely and let the motor rotate forward and down to get at it. Not a huge amount of extra work but it does give you the best chance at doing it right. Now this was for the slider on the right side of the bike. I don't recall if the left side is the same but I think so.Just an FYI for ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nautical1 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 I figured tapping may by some miracle work but if not I heard to go with helicoil, but I have no experience with it. How much does helicoil cost? Or how much would you charge, Paul? I was hoping this would be a cheap fix but it's not sounding like it. And I'm assuming that with the frame slider bolt out it's not a good idea to ride the bike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 It isn't super expensive. Kit's for a single size aren't too much, I'd say $50 or less but you get everything you need like the drill bit and tap needed. You can ride the bike as long as the other three are good and tight.Hell, if Pauly doesn't have one for it let me know. I'll let you or Pauly borrow my kit and he can fix it for you if that's what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nautical1 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Well I work in a machine shop so I can get the tap and drill bit. I did run a dye on the bolt already to get the aluminum off the first couple threads and it was m10 andI found a tap for that size bolt. My biggest fear is messing up the hole since it's aluminum. Edited August 28, 2012 by nautical1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Worst case is you have to put a coil in. Try running a tap in the hole and see if the bolt holds tight. If not, then just run out to an auto parts store and pick up the a pack of coils only. It will list what size drill and tap you need to put the coil in. Shit, no more than an $10 fix if you have the bit and tap.There's plenty of meat around that boss to drill and tap for a coil. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nautical1 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Do the coils come in different lenghts? And how far down do you tap, do you recall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMMW Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 How come no one supports their motors when removing and installing frame/engine bolts? These frames are flexible and Mr. Motor always obeys the laws of gravity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Don't let Pauly touch your bike!! He's inexperienced when it comes to non-Italian bikes.The Suzuki is a Japanese brand and therefore requires Japanese metric fasteners, not Italian metric fasteners. M10's are measured by the rice-standard on Suzuki's vs. the pasta al dente-standard in Italy on Ducatis and Aprilias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nautical1 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 I'm just not familiar with helicoil as I've never had to use it, but I am familiar with drilling/tapping. I will see if retapping the thread will get the bolt to stay in, if not I'll look into helicoil.How come no one supports their motors when removing and installing frame/engine bolts? These frames are flexible and Mr. Motor always obeys the laws of gravity.I didn't read up on it until I had an issue, but I wasn't aware it needed raised until now. Lesson learned I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anden Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 If you work in a machine shop you should have everything available to you. I would chase all the threads first. Just to see how it works. (Most likely not). To fix the right way. Use something that will fit in hole to be repaired to check depthPut paint mark on drill th hold same depth. Make up a block to keep drill square.Your dill and tap will be oversize. Not sure what the drill is but Tap comes with helicoil.Use a tapping block to keep your tap square. Be sure to use oil on the tap. Or Your next move is a keensert.Use helicoil tool to install. Repaired ready to rock and roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nautical1 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 A little update, I retapped the hole and the bolt went in without issue, so guess I got lucky. Thanks for the info guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Good to hear. Did you cut a hole in the panel so you won't be taking it on and off all the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nautical1 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Not yet but I'm going to take a dremel to it and open it up more than it is now so I don't have to mess with it later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Engineerd here... if it can find four good threads, it will hold for the max torque required.Six would be nice though, always good to have extra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nautical1 Posted August 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Nice work. Did it tighten alright?Yep' date=' went in smoothly which I was surprised about. Engineerd here... if it can find four good threads, it will hold for the max torque required.Six would be nice though, always good to have extra.Never knew that, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nautical1 Posted August 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Well everything seems tight and the threads went right in so I'm assuming it should be good and I made sure to not tighten it too much, though I really need to pick up a torque wrench for stuff like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) Stanford says a minimum of 10mm worth of threads on that screw' date=' and 15mm would be optimal. At 1.25 threads/mm, they'd say 8 threads is the minimum you want for proper torque application. 12 threads would be optimal. Not saying that's right, or wrong. Just stating what the Stanford Engineerds are saying. [url']https://www.stanford.edu/group/prl/documents/html/thumb.htmQuite possible, both because metric threads are different from SAE, and anything with higher material properties would double as you show. Fine threads would also be different.I'm just going by the old Rockwell design manual. Which I didn't pull out to see what it would say for higher strength hardware. Personally, I always designed with 8 threads engaged where possible. Better safe than sorry.Also, aircraft design goes by minimums, in order to save weight in flight. Motorcycles appreciate the same principles. Most of them, anyway.edit: argh... the Stanford data is for cut threads. We seldom used cut threads, normally we J-formed all threads by roll forming, both exterior and interior. The J-formed threads are a lot stronger. So stock threads can be 4, cutting new ones should double where possible?edit2: oh hey, it probably should double for being steel in aluminum.... duh me... forgot about that.Here's one from Ajax fasteners in Australia:If a bolt and a nut are made of the same material the minimum thread engagement length required isapproximately 65% of the nominal diameter. For example a M10 bolt will need a minimum of 6.5mmof thread engagement. Typically standard nut height is approximately 80 – 90% of its nominal diameter.The across flat dimension of a nut should be approximately 167% if the nominal diameter.That would be 4.33 threads minimum.A standard nut only has about 4 fully formed threads anyway. That indicates something also. Fine threads would have more, but have less surface engagement. Basing thread engagement by a percent of fastener diameter is a better way of controlling the design, rather than just saying "4 threads minimum", which is only practical for SAE coarse threads, I'd guess. Edited August 29, 2012 by ReconRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) Here, this is nice. A thread engagement calculator:Dissimilar materials have to be adjusted to compensate.Minimum Thread Engagement Formula and Calculation ISOFound it here: http://www.torontodrawings.com/Thread.htmlThere's several of these, here's one for Mil Std:Minimum Length of Thread Engagement Calculator Per FED-STD-H28/2Bedit: and... those are difficult to use accurately. Looking for charts that solve for us:M10 steel in steel is 6.66 threads rule of thumb and 7.4443 calculated.M10 steel in aluminum is double that by rule of thumb = 13.33 threads.In aircraft design we didn't put steel in aluminum threads, we (almost) always used steel inserts instead.And those would have been two times diameter, unless some weird design compromise.(I know, I'm contradicting myself here somewhere... live with it...) Edited August 29, 2012 by ReconRat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 I find it so hard to believe that JRMMiii has not jumped all over this post now that it has hit moderate nerdness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Ladies love me because I know which way to put in the batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Now we know the real reason Abby stays with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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