BDBGoalie Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 So my wife's care got broken into by some inept thieves a few months back. They took her aftermarket radio, with nice pop tabs for easy removal, by breaking the radio trim with a screwdriver.I finally got the replacement parts and the time to fix it this weekend. I was greeted by this clusterfuck of hillbilly alarm wring.The same night I fixed it people broke back in and rifled through the car. Obviously now she keeps nothing of value in it, but this just pissed me off.One of the power door locks does not work, and I'm pretty sure forgetting to manually lock this door was likely the entry point. Luckily I have a background in the military and blowing stuff up in general. I'd like to wire a flashbang simulator (Pyro if legal (Blast shroud to direct heat and pressure out of car), else wise the best alternative) to the door with the manual lock.Since the device would only be triggered by someone intruding into personal property, and the device would be non-lethal and conform to minimum safe distances, would it be legal? It's not really different than a car alarm, other than my replacing the siren with a more effective noisemaker...I personally think that after repeated attempts, they deserve to crap themselves thinking they just set off a mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anden Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Put a coil on it and light them fuckers up. My grandpa did this to his truck when cb equipment was getting stolen out of it. Found the security guard laying next to it. As for legality probably not very. But I'm willing to bet the cops would look the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Hmmm... My gut says not legal. I am certain that you can't booby trap using lethal force to protect property. Your assertion that it's not lethal force may be correct, but if a judge feels differently, you're fucked. In short, unless you can PROVE that whatever 'explosion' you're rigging was absolutely not capable of inflicting harm, I wouldn't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._BrineyThis is the only case law I'm aware of on the subject, but that's not to say there isn't a more factually similar case out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Just thinking out loud, and talk to the local LEO before doing this, but maybe they would help you bate the thieves with counterfeit bills, then catch them spending them and they'd get REAL time. Felony time. That's not quite entrapment, but it sounds procedurally problematic anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 If civilians are allowed to own flash bangs, why not? That said, I would cease any further discussion in detail on a public forum unless you have absolutely no intention of ever doing this.But since your ass knee deep in malicious intent already, if flash bangs are illegal, go with pepper spray/oc bomb instead. Maybe with scorpions and other horrifying but non lethal animals for that little bonus psychological damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swingset Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 If you have to ask.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) "perimeter alarm" - shotgun blank, 308 blank, extreme loud whistle, paintball perimeter alarms, party popper type stuff, etc.silent motion alarms - alert when something moves inside the vehicle, alarm goes off inside the house. (my favorite) I wasn't sure it would work like that, but it does. If the distance from the vehicle to the receiver isn't too great. 40 feet seems to work alright even inside a vehicle.http://www.amazon.com/Skylink-HA-318-Household-Alert-Motion/dp/B000EN69DUhttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31O8WPdzRgL._SL500_AA300_.jpgedit: oh, and if they broke in that quickly, I'm willing to bet they live close enough they can see you. Fair warning... Edited October 10, 2012 by ReconRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner75 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 If i remember right this was discussed at length awhile back between some friends of mine. It was determined that explosives such as a flashbang which can cause fires if it has an incendiary core is not legal. I could be wrong but I would confirm that through your local leo office. I do know to wire up your car handle to shock someone when they put a hand on it is illegal as it constitutes as assault. I thought about trying something similar and when I ran the idea past a relative in law enforcement he advised against it due to the above reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDBGoalie Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) All the above I agree with. Civilian ownership of a flashbang is illegal. Simulators are legal with CO2 sources (120db-130db). Unsure on legality of simulators with pyro sources.I was planning on using a flashbang simulator, such as those used in military training environments. I believe they still use a small pyro charge, but no real incapacitation/damage from noise or light. I believe there is no or very little fire risk as well. I know the safe distance for us was pretty much on top of you. If those were illegal, I was planning on using the CO2 variety, which is completely legal. Not sure if it is legal to use with a wire activator.I figured anything that could do them harm could get me arrested. That nixes the CS and beanbag rounds, as well as electrocution.The use of marked bills sounds like a good idea as well. I might have to make a call on that to see if they care enough. I doubt the minor value of loss will perk their interest.The silent alarm is a good idea if I was at home. Since I'm stationed at Campbell and its just my wife at home, I'd rather a loud noise to scare them off while alerting her.As to them being close by, I agree. But that's why the persuader is loaded and next to the bed.I like the perimeter alarm idea. Pretty much the same thing I was going for, just no simulation banger. Although that brings up another point; will it violate a noise ordinance?I also agree a LEO's opinion would be nice. I'll talk to one once I'm back in town. Edited October 10, 2012 by BDBGoalie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) The loud whistle or the silent alarm, and just call the cops. Don't call in false alarms though, look to see what's going on. Bright flashlight, real bright.Another trip wire whistle: http://www.pepperenforcement.com/slm99PE.htmJust tried to get a little raccoon off the downspout outside (1am). Looks beat, something must have been chasing him/her.Yeah, we have coyotes, but you hardly ever see them. Edited October 10, 2012 by ReconRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Any pyro device you build from scratch or re-purpose with a triggering device of any kind qualifies under the ied section of federal law and will result in homeland security putting you in a very dark place for a very long time. I would instead have a more sophisticated alarm system installed with the wiring to the siren enclosed in metal conduit so it can't be clipped from below the vehicle where it passes through the firewall. Fix the locks. Maybe a camera with DVR set up. Razor blades under the door handles has been an idea of mine, having had most of the cars I've owned violated by thieves. Any boobytrapping with intent to cause the booby harm violates state and federal laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Don't do anything that can possibly ever hurt someone. Flashbangs, razor blades or electrocution could get YOU into more trouble that the burglar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 The problems with counterfeit bills are 1) the cops have to believe that you're using them as bait and not just spending them, 2) I'm not sure they can give you illegal bills any more than they could give you illegal drugs to bait them, and 3) having them in the car may make you or your wife kit as guilty as the thieves (possessing counterfeit currency) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDBGoalie Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Any pyro device you build from scratch or re-purpose with a triggering device of any kind qualifies under the ied section of federal law and will result in homeland security putting you in a very dark place for a very long time.Well, I'd like to read it for myself, but that seems to be enough to quash the pyro.I'd imagine same rules apply to a wire trigger for a CO2 device?I would instead have a more sophisticated alarm system installed with the wiring to the siren enclosed in metal conduit so it can't be clipped from below the vehicle where it passes through the firewall. Fix the locks. Maybe a camera with DVR set up. Razor blades under the door handles has been an idea of mine, having had most of the cars I've owned violated by thieves. Any boobytrapping with intent to cause the booby harm violates state and federal laws.I hate car alarms. I just keep my cars clean and stock and that usually serves as a decent deterrent. Its too bad that even discharging a device just generating sound could possibly be construed as intent to cause bodily harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 The only thing I could maybe see being legal-ish is signal flares or maybe Roman candles a safe distance away from your car, but even those violate Ohio's fireworks laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheech Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I will reiterate that asking LEO's for advice does not in any way give you a defense to wrap yourself in in court. Law enforcement is not the judiciary.That being said...Just thinking out loud, and talk to the local LEO before doing this, but maybe they would help you bate the thieves with counterfeit bills, then catch them spending them and they'd get REAL time. Felony time. That's not quite entrapment, but it sounds procedurally problematic anyway...Since the criminals themselves aren't being induced by the State to break into his car, what other definition of entrapment is there? I would think that after 2 break-ins, you would be able to prove a pattern of criminal activity prior to using a lure like leaving marked bills in plain view.Scruit and redkow's right as usual on the rest. If whatever you do or set up causes lasting physical or even psychological damage to the assholes, that's something that they (if they think of doing it) can take you to civil (you're liable for the damage that was inflicted) or worse case, criminal court (intentional battery).Only way you're going to get these guys is if you set up a shitload of cameras and get a PD that's willing to go after them, or if you set up something similar to "Bait Car" where they are locked inside of the car after they've broken into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheech Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Its too bad that even discharging a device just generating sound could possibly be construed as intent to cause bodily harm.If that was true, then everyone with car alarms is shouldering a pretty major liability.I think what's being said here is discharging a flashbang, or any flashbang substitute could be intent to cause bodily harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDBGoalie Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 I will reiterate that asking LEO's for advice does not in any way give you a defense to wrap yourself in in court. Law enforcement is not the judiciary.That being said...Since the criminals themselves aren't being induced by the State to break into his car, what other definition of entrapment is there? I would think that after 2 break-ins, you would be able to prove a pattern of criminal activity prior to using a lure like leaving marked bills in plain view.Scruit and redkow's right as usual on the rest. If whatever you do or set up causes lasting physical or even psychological damage to the assholes, that's something that they (if they think of doing it) can take you to civil (you're liable for the damage that was inflicted) or worse case, criminal court (intentional battery).Only way you're going to get these guys is if you set up a shitload of cameras and get a PD that's willing to go after them, or if you set up something similar to "Bait Car" where they are locked inside of the car after they've broken into it.Sad but true. Although locking them in the car sounds amusing, cameras are the best option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDBGoalie Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) If that was true, then everyone with car alarms is shouldering a pretty major liability.I think what's being said here is discharging a flashbang, or any flashbang substitute could be intent to cause bodily harm.A simulator is pretty much just a noisemaker. With pyro it gets a flash too. Just more intense than most. I do agree that if it went off next to their head likely hearing damage could be caused. Maybe minor burns if they were holding it.I was just hoping using legal distraction devices/alarms could make it legal. Too bad overall, but I'm not willing to deal with the risk of legal action to punish thieves. Edited October 10, 2012 by BDBGoalie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMMW Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) We used to pop rived razor blades to our car stereos ... the thieves and police did not like that. Edited October 10, 2012 by BMMW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 One thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet is civil liability.Even if you're not breaking any laws and are certain you can avoid criminal charges, that doesn't make you immune to being sued by the thieves.Your obvious intent is to scare them off by surprising them. Let's assume for a moment that whatever you do is all good and legal - they get scared, and in the process of fleeing, the guy smacks his head on the door-frame of your car, or jumps back into traffic. You're potentially civilly liable for their injuries, because you've chosen to surprise them rather than deter them with a clear warning. It would be a weak suit at best, but still a hassle you need to consider before you do anything.I still like the counterfeit bills idea, if local law enforcement is willing to cooperate with that idea. Any federal reserve building has a TON of counterfeit bills "in stock" so to speak, and it would be a sure-fire way to know you've got the right guy(s), while also getting them charged with more than a slap on the wrist for the petty thefts and vandalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Don't forget unintended targets. What if the device goes off in traffic, or when you take the car for an oil change etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDBGoalie Posted October 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Don't forget unintended targets. What if the device goes off in traffic, or when you take the car for an oil change etc.The idea of the wire was that it would only be armed in the location where the crimes had occurred before (Her specific parking spot), and only in the evening. The neighbors would all be informed as well, mitigating collateral damage. The intent would be that it could only be triggered by someone entering her vehicle in the evening.Again, I agree that the legal ramifications outweigh the possible benefits. The civil liabilities point was well made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jporter12 Posted October 10, 2012 Report Share Posted October 10, 2012 Why not just fix the power lock? By cleaning up the wiring, does that mean you removed the alarm? If it's still in there, it should be hooked up to trigger when the doors open (mine didn't have the door triggers wired in for several years, glad I didn't need it to work!)I agree with keeping it clean and as original looking as possible. Everything audio related in my car is aftermarket (way outdated at this point) but the head unit is the only thing noticeable by looking in through the tinted windows. No flashy wheels or anything. I don't even have an LED hooked up for the alarm armed status. The less people suspect will be in there, the less likely they'll break in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.