It's end of the season. Let's discuss a few track day topics. Passing...

[TSB67]

Track days have either control riders or instructors... Mid-O has instructors.

That's quite a loaded statement. I think I see what you did there.

If that's the case I have to say I have learned way more from control riders than instructors.

I don't have any particular loyalties, just pure customer experience.

[Moto-Brian]

That's quite a loaded statement. I think I see what you did there.

If that's the case I have to say I have learned way more from control riders than instructors.

I don't have any particular loyalties, just pure customer experience.

Not loaded at all. The difference is whether or not an org has a school involved and the status they place on their staff. Instructors are SUPPOSED to instruct. Unfortunately, some orgs have better instruction with CRs than some track day companies like STT, Mid-O, etc have with "instructors".

I think for example, Ducati Indy days as an example of CRs doing an exceptional job at helping and instructing riders. I know a lot of the CRs as they are called that work those events and I know their way of doing things and know they are instructing and helping others get better.

It also depends on how often you ride with a set org. If you are a full on STT guy for example, you will feel you get more from them than a CR based org. Or, if you do more MRCA days for example, you will feel CRs give you more. It's very much relative.

Again, nobody does it perfectly so, there are issues on both ends. But, the quality of the org is apparent easily. I think that there are 4 solid companies around us here. Mid-O, Ducati Indy Days, Moto Series and STT. You get a lot of choices and really, all have something to offer almost everyone.

[RVTPilot]

Making copious mental notes of this conversation as a rider ascending upward in track day groups, and one who is learning to pass as well as still being passed. Not to steal the racers' thunder here, but from a track day rider's perspective there are a couple things I have seen - and done with newbie ignorance and henceforth learned from - that I am now trying to find the proper skills to deal with among other riders. Brian discussed in his scenario guys entering turns with a wide cushion (i.e. off the line) then come back to the line mid corner or upon exit, only to find the passing rider there and sit up. I see this happen two ways. One, the slower rider knows he's slower so is attempting to think proactively about being passed. So he takes a wide entry into the corner providing those with better skills an opportunity to get by them in a place he anticipates he should be passed at. Then, at another place of his choosing mid-corner, he returns to the line, only to find that space occupied by the individual he granted access the line, and is now sitting up spooked. I have seen this, and did it once early in my track days, and rather quickly realized how wrong I was. Hold your line, and make that line as close to the racing line as you are capable of doing. Don't try and think for or anticipate other riders actions that are behind you. Less than 10% of the guys going out there in a given group are not going to get passed by anyone else out there. For us I guys (and I am assuming some A riders) at some point you are going to get passed. Don't worry about it or try to be proactive about it by going off line. Go out there, hold your line, ride relaxed. Most guys who get spooked set themselves up for it. Granted, when a expert level rider blows your doors off, even 6 feet can feel like 6 inches, but that is part of our sport. Rarely have I been passed by a superior rider where I felt he didn't need to make that pass there, or that way.

The other thing I see is riders who leave the line (especially in a corner) then feel the need to get back on the line as quickly as possible and find themselves coming back on faster traffic coming through. The difference from the scenario above is that they didn't plan on leaving the line, they made a mistake somewhere like entering a corner too hot, and just pull right back down into the line, rather than gradually resuming their place on the line. Like anything else, decision made in haste often have dire consequences.

Now that I find I am improving my skills a bit and am in situations more often as the passer, not just the passee, I am trying to employ better skills that will make the passes safer for the rider in front of me as well as myself. Since few of us go to the track to earn a living, I do my best to not create an unfortunate situation. Jinu was a very big help at the last Beaver session as he followed me through traffic. His constructive criticism helped and in subsequent sessions, I saw what he was talking about and made some better decisions in passing situations. There is inherent aggressiveness in passing. It is a proactive aspect of the riding experience where you are asserting yourself in that one particular moment over another rider. It isn't done with malice or disrespect in mind, but it does need to be executed with confidence in both your ability, as well as some acquired confidence in the rider you are about to overtake to be consistent with their place on the track. Taking a lap or so to process that and pick your spot goes a long way for those of us learning more and more each time out. Granted, for guys with a higher riding/racing acumen, that can be done in a handful of corners and they move on.

Just my $.02 on this. I am enjoying this thread, though. Anytime I can glean something from the guys smoother, faster, better than me, it's good for anyone on the track at the same time as me.

[blue03636]

One thing I do as I'm approaching a rider is going through the corners that I will be catching them in. Once I have a rough idea I start to make a plan for 2-3 corners in case one doesn't work. This way the thinking part is done well before the corner and all I have to do is execute it. This saves the time of o on the fly thinking and having to think and execute at the same time.

[TwiztedRabbit]

i feel the need to comment on brians posts.. with out tagging a bunch of them i'll just hit on a few points... and what i think of them from a CR standpoint (albiet a first year CR)

1. Advanced needs instructors too.. once you hit that group your not the best.. if you were then you would be then you would hopefully be doing more than just track days... with that said... i hate how nesba makes only Racers in Adv. I might not have the quickest times out there but im consistant and predictable.

2. I am a CR and deff not a Advanced CR, I work in Novice and Intermediate with Ducati Indy, and the little timet hat i do get to work on my own skills in Advanced I do so without wearing my vest.

3. in the novice meeting i always tell people were im pitted and for those that dont get to hear it in the INT. level i actually hang my vest ont he front of my easy up so people passing by can stop by and ask for help. i have gotten a lot of positive feedback from this..

4. I will always try my best to assist some one when out there.. i'll pick up anyone i can after getting 1/2 lap behind them see how they do following me for 1 lap then if they still arent getting it i will pull them tot he pits for 30 seconds to help explain it to them... then back out we go, if they had done well i wontpull them in and continue with them so i can tell them later.. or move on depending on how well they responded.

5. to the original posting.. passing is passing in advanced for me.. I'm not a racer, i want to be. and technically i passed the MCRA "race school" just never did anything with it.. BUT its a track day not a race. passing should always be clean, but its going to be close and sometimes closer than the other person would like, but as long as your not stuffing some one up and bumping and grinding im ok with it... i've had more bumped elbows in intermediate at MO (before i was bumped by BamBam early last year) than i ever have had in Advanced.. im sure there is more but i feel like im rambling

[r1crusher]

I've been trying to keep up with this thread and I have to agree with a lot of points in it. Passing in it's very nature is "aggressive" but it's when it's done haphazardly or without a good setup of the rider being passed it can certainly be perceived as close, dangerous or wild. Still riding in the I group I know that I have certainly made mistakes trying to pass someone. It's certainly not my intention but it happens because I have to learn to do it properly. It is not something that can just be taught by itself, like anything in our sport. Just like later braking or faster to the throttle or taking a different line. Instructors and CR's can tell you this or that but in the end YOU the rider must be able to execute whatever it is.

Now, while I understand that we appear to be drawing a line between instructors and CR's I have seen in many instances a CR step up and provide instruction. Be it a little or a lot they still can help someone. I have also asked for help and while getting that help it didn't last very long and it was disappointing. You literally have to almost bounce from Inst/CR to find one you can bond with and have someone that you can work with. While I would love to be able to have Brian, Craig, Jinu, Steve, Brandon, etc. be at my beckon call they are just like the rest of us and trying to get better themselves or already busy instructing or CR'ing.

In the end I have learned to simply be patient, take note of the riders habits in front of you and as Craig said create a plan and execute. You watch any racing at the highest levels and those guys just don't typically bonzi guys right out of the gate, they follow, watch, learn, and then make their move...and that is while they are racing. Track days IMO should be no different.

I want to be quicker. I want to advance to the A group. I want to start racing. Learning to pass and be passed is just part of the game.

[c7fx]

I read a little bit of this thread to be honest and maybe missed a few good post. One thing I can say about riding, passing and instructing. No one is perfect and someone is always going to be pissed for whatever reason.

As far as instructing goes.

First thing I noticed when wearing the instructor vest was it put a huge target on my back. First you had the people that felt it a badge of honor to "pass an instructor". Second if I made any mistake " being human" I was a bad instructor. Third if I came up to someone to offer a suggestion it was like I was telling them they can't ride.

Being an instructor also had us pit together and wear the yellow vests so if anyone wanted help they could find us. Some took advantage of this but most didn't. I actually loved going out with someone that needed help. Usually the rider would ask me to follow and critique their lines. Other would say hey I'm stuck doing these lap times can you help me go faster. Funny thing was that many of the people I instructed as Novice would come back as Intermediates for help. I always felt good about that knowing that I was helping someone out.

Bottom line with instructors CR riders and track organizations. No one group is going to be perfect. One needs to actively ask for help and try to go to different people. Riding styles, ability and equipment can make a big difference on how someone gets around the track. Also not every person can instruct every rider that comes to them. Sometimes a rider needs to weed through a few people before they find a person that will really help them.

My opinion on passing (let me get my soap box)

This I think is the big issue with people going from I to A. Most riders can't pass and usually sit behind others and bitch about how packed the track was. I rode Advance for many years and when I became an instructor spent a lot of time in Intermediate either CR riding or instructing. The funniest thing I noticed with the the Intermediate sessions was that everyone would be on one side of the track and the other side was wide open. It was like cheerios in a bowl of milk all stuck together. As I would circulate around I would come up to a group of riders pass them and have a clear track for multiple laps.

In advance I feel we are all big people and have graduated or wanted to be at the top. This means we have the ability to not freak out when someone passes us or we pass them. This also doesn't mean lets stuff everyone into the corner...We aren't going to win a prize for being the fastest track day rider and I think most seasoned Advanced riders know this. I feel a lot of people base going to advanced by the lap times they ride. As (fill in the blank)Brian has stated being smooth and predictable is more important along with the ability to pass and be passed without freaking out. I should also add most advanced riders still have a little reserve when cornering to make adjustments, hit the brakes, or turn a little deeper when a close pass comes without messing them up or pissing them off.

I have noticed on the track just like on the highway as you go to pass someone they notice you and speed up. I think this is one of the reasons we have close passes. I have been guilty of this. I followed someone into a turn maybe for two laps and I know they are much slower than me. So I pull up next to them and suddenly they want to be the late brake king and the pass becomes a little close. Now Its my fault that the pass was close....In racing and with some advanced riders I would wave like sorry and it would be cool. Others would think it was intentional (can't win). If I had the vest on well then I'm an ass...

I could go on but its the internet and no one wins

[ama146]

a little off topic but why did KTM brian change to Desmo Brian?

[c7fx]

a little off topic but why did KTM brian change to Desmo Brian?

He is a man of many names

[J_Copeland]

a little off topic but why did KTM brian change to Desmo Brian?

He no longer works for KTM.

I believe he's with Ducati North America now.

[ama146]

damn I wish i had his hookups for work lol

[rusty]

So he's going change his ride too?

[r1crusher]

More than likely. He changes jobs and race bikes like he changes his panties.

[Moto-Brian]

More than likely. He changes jobs and race bikes like he changes his panties.

I go commando so, that theory is out the window...

In reality, I have been with KTM going on three years... Was a great time, great product, but even though I have raced and ran MX and some off road, dirty bikes just aren't my wheelhouse. Ducati came up and I decided to try for it and landed it.

I'm very excited and yes, Rusty... I will be changing bikes. My RC8R RS was a demo. That's why it was stock...

Anyone know someone with an RC8? I have a PILE of parts and spares. CHEAP!!!

[Moto-Brian]

Back on topic...

I like the last several responses outside asking about my name, etc. C7fx has some great insight and great thoughts. Twisted and R1 had some awesome responses as well...

Personally, I think the term CR is somewhat weird at times as I see what Ducati Indy is doing. I know Dean, Mike, Matt, etc and all are instructing and not just CRing. I think that the confusion is really a title issue... I think that if there is organized instruction, you are an instructor. But, just because a track day may not have a classroom or something to offer I and A as well as Novice, doesn't mean you are of lower quality.

I want to point out one very important thing here. If you are a CR or an instructor, you are awesome and doing a great service for customers in whatever track day you work. I'm not trying to separate the CRs from Instructors. Please understand that the QUALITY of a track day is often and should be, judged on how much a customer gets out of their day. If you are a CR or an instructor, I PERSONALLY feel that you owe it to the track day company and to the customers to offer insight and assist customers in getting better.

A few things need to be done in any track day org:

1) if you are there for yourself or feel you are owed track time for working as a CR or instructor, you are doing it for the wrong reasons. You will get track time WHEN IT IS FREE TO DO SO. I see a lot of guys and even when I was directing for STT, that were dropping their obligations to assist riders/customers to get out on the track for their group to get track time in. When approached, they felt since they volunteer and burn their own fuel, own tires, etc., it was something they were owed. I let a staff member go as a result of this mentality and felt several more needed to go...

2) Instruction. Whether CR or instructor, you need to be proactive. Get out and find riders needing assistance. Like C7fx stated, a lot of times, the vest guy is an asshole because they are pulling people over and talking about how to help. You'll get those riders. I've had several. It's the approach and I think the missing link in all of this is that the staff are not trained or educated in how to approach a customer that needs bumped down or criticized about their riding. It's difficult and honestly, avoided in most cases and issues are left to run their course. This cannot happen...

3) Ability. Again, whether an CR or instructor (More emphasis on instructor), you need to have the ability to ride in whatever group you are assisting. As Rusty mentioned, if you are running :45s in Advanced at Mid-O and have a vest on? You need pulled. You can run and develop your skills WITHOUT the vest on. Otherwise, credibility and even the more important ability to help others is lost. I don't have a single issue with someone trying to better themselves and again, it is less about lap times and more about smooth, consistent and predictable. But, the unfortunate deal with CRing or instructing, you need to actually be at the top of that level you teach.

I also find some serious issue with instructors teaching newer riders and especially "I" level riders in things that shouldn't be discussed or quite bluntly, they have not obtained the right level of ability themselves to be teaching others methodology. I can read from a book about Nuclear Science, but if I have zero or little hands on experience nor ability to do what I am preaching, it is something that I feel is wrong. I've pissed off a few guys and I will stand my ground on this. I've seen it in action and it really pisses me off that customers that do not know much and are absorbing everything they are told, get someone that cannot even put into action, the theories they are preaching. I hear a LOT of regurgitated Keith Code stuff which again, is just read from a book and pitched without really understanding the theory themselves. Sorry, rant over...

4) Cowboys. I feel that their is a time to have fun and horse play. We are riding machines capable of power wheelies and sweet play as we ride. But, on your own time. Not with a vest. Again, as C7fx stated, it is a target. It is also a HUGE flashing light when shit hits the fan. Even if the vest is clean and clear, you won't believe the number of crashes where a rider swore a vest hit his wheel or chopped his front before he crashed. The fact is that we typically find out this to not be the case. Working with corner workers who see a LOT more than most give credit and looking at evidence of impact, etc., it is usually because the vest was around or maybe passing and it is the last thing that crosses their memory bank.

I think there needs to be a hammer brought down on the staff of any track day. If there is stuff going on that shouldn't be, it needs corrected NOW. If it is not or allowed to be evidence on YouTube or topic of an upset customer or someone that posts a comment online, we are a society of media that is out almost immediately. The unfortunate issue is that people do not typically get online to a forum or write a letter that is positive. It usually is due to a complaint or issue... So, it is even more important to get that stuff fixed as soon as possible...

Sorry this went from passing to instructing and CRing. But, I think there are a ton of CRs that are actually doing a better job than a lot of instructors. I think guys like Dean are guys that should be lead instructors and sought after by every org. He is a CR technically from what I understand. I also think there are instructors like Rob that are amazing at what they do, assist riders when they see something the customers need help with and are experienced enough to be the ones teaching the typical "I" rider.

This topic carries heavy weight in my mind and I am trying to work with others to make it better.

Anyways, passing... Stuff em!!!

[madcat6183]

Bro, I'm going to pull some crazy, nasty, chop on you this season, well maybe in the pits because I'll never be able to catch you on the track, but you get the idea. It may even be in the paddock like when we are pulling out to go home, I may just cut you off, but I will pass you or block you, oh I will.

Yeah this thread is full of good stuff, but let's get back to "passing", we can leave instructing or CRing for another topic. Then I can rip Craig, Jinu, etc for their MS instruction in which I NEVER once got the HJ I was promised, well except from Apch8r(nick), he always treated me nice.

[RidersDiscount]

Brian, we kind of left block passing hanging (for racing purpose). I understand it, have executed it a couple times, but don't think I can get it down in words for others to understand. Perhaps you could further explain what a block pass is?

Racing only situation here...

[redkow97]

I think "block pass" is a somewhat redundant term...

Any time you execute a pass that puts you into your opponent's intended spot on the track, you've executed a block pass.

"making a pass stick" is all about not only getting by, but doing it in a way that prevents your opponent from driving out of the corner as they intended.

So not only out-braking the rider you're passing, but then also not running so wide that they can hold a tighter line and end up on your inside.

[Moto-Brian]

Brian, we kind of left block passing hanging (for racing purpose). I understand it, have executed it a couple times, but don't think I can get it down in words for others to understand. Perhaps you could further explain what a block pass is?

Racing only situation here...

A block pass in my mind is a pass that is essentially getting in to a turn before your opponent and taking the line away. It effectively causes him/her to lose the ability to carry the speed and gain the drive out. Typically though, you stuff in and lose drive yourself due to the tight line you have to take, but it will ruin his also and you get a better drive out and make the pass stick.

You may very easily stand the passee up while doing this type of pass. But, you can also just stuff in and be totally clean, but kill their ability to make that turn as quick as normal and have to almost be held up by you and have to wait while you are driving and exiting hard...

[Moto-Brian]

I think "block pass" is a somewhat redundant term...

Any time you execute a pass that puts you into your opponent's intended spot on the track, you've executed a block pass.

"making a pass stick" is all about not only getting by, but doing it in a way that prevents your opponent from driving out of the corner as they intended.

So not only out-braking the rider you're passing, but then also not running so wide that they can hold a tighter line and end up on your inside.

But, you can brake deeper than your opponent and carry the same speed as they are starting to carry through a turn. Then, they do not have to hold up nor lose their drive, but due to late braking, you have placed yourself in front of them and taken the spot away. But, they have lost nothing but a position and can carry the same intended speed and fall in behind... Smooth and clean passes with no loss of drive happen all the time. Those are MUCH different than a block pass...

[redkow97]

Right - I think of a block pass as forcing your opponent to either slow down to avoid hitting you, or modify their intended line in a manner that hurts their drive. Either way, you have "blocked" them by putting the bike where they wanted theirs to be.

An outright pass implies that the passing rider is substantially faster, and just went right around the other person.

But when you're battling with someone, I don't really count the whole "pass, run wide, get re-passed on the inside" scenario as a real pass... If you don't make it stick for the next 2 turns, (or across start/finish) you never really had it to begin with.

I think I'm on the same page as you; just struggling to describe it well enough. We should all take bicycles out on the track at Nelson some day after dinner and really illustrate this stuff, play out some scenarios, and have some fun goofing off

[RidersDiscount]

After reading some of the motoseries' threads, you guys have some weird ways of "goofing off."

[r1crusher]

After reading some of the motoseries' threads, you guys have some weird ways of "goofing off."

I think someone is jealous!

[RidersDiscount]

Duh. Why do you think I was so bummed Grattan got cancelled?

[r1crusher]

It's okay. Our premier circus attraction (aka the Madscat) would not have been there so you'd of missed the good action anyway.