It's end of the season. Let's discuss a few track day topics. Passing...

[J_Copeland]

As one of the slower I group riders,I can tell you that I don't get spooked when getting passed.

I think I might have been in Craig's way at The Ledge's in the kink but that's a racer compared to an I rider.

[wantahertzdonut]

I dont mind or spooked when getting passed but i need to stop being so patient on passing other riders. I will wait a whole lap sometimes to make a pass.

I'm in the same spot. I ride trackdays and am about a mid pack I rider. But I'm ok with the passes in the mixed last session with the A guys. Yes, some are close, but I ride an SV so I'm used to getting passed, especially on straights.

Generally I will wait for a lap or two in order to make a good clean pass. I'll watch the person's line, and if they're consistant, pass at a point where I know I can overtake them with corner speed, because it's highly unlikely I'll get them on the straight.

Another trick someone mentioned on here, was if you're having trouble getting around a screamer/parker, give them a gap so you can carry your usual amount of corner speed into a turn where you know the S/P guy is going to be slow. That way you can pass them on the outside without incident.

I've had some bad/forced passes put on me, but none really worth approaching anyone about it. I have seen a few people consistantly put bad passes (close, inside, in I group) but it's really not worth getting a hot head over. I see it as long as there isn't contact and the passer gets away quickly, all is well.

At leat twice this past season, I have approached people to apologize for what I thought might have been a bad pass I put on them. Both times they said I was fine. I think one's perception of what is close is different from another.

Some people are just slightly slower TRMN8R mentioned, and it can get tight. But I also have to remember, it's a track day, take a hot pit.

[TRMN8TR]

block pass on the inside. you won't make a lap time, but you'll get in front.

Any more details on how to setup and execute said block pass?

My problem is I was dead even with a couple of these guys down the straight, then they would take the inside line with no room for me to comfortably get the inside line from behind?

Edited October 26, 2012 by TRMN8TR

[RHill]

Wantahertz, were you trailing a black gsxr with a rear facing camera(me) for the last few laps of the mixed session?

[Moto-Brian]

This point caught my eye. What if you're in a situation where there won't be any easy passing areas for nearly half a lap?

Case in point: Grattan. There's minimal low-risk passing opportunities after the jump (cw) and I don't want to waste my time parading behind a guy who's slowing me up to take a higher risk pass later in the lap - so I'll pass him after the jump into the T5 right hander leading into the esses.

Most of them were clean, but reviewing the video I saw that I stood up one guy as he was starting to tip in.

To those that have been to Grattan, would this be considered an overly aggressive pass to a trackday guy?

There's a lot more opportunities to pass at Grattan than having to wait from the jump until later. You can pass where you did and do it cleanly on the inside, but if it is a deal where you are approaching and stuff the guy, you need to wait a bit and pass into the bowl or the right hander out of the bowl or the kink after. The amount of time waiting isn't that much and for a track day, I would expect you to be more patient.

I do think the area you passed is perfectly fine, but if you stand a guy up by stuffing in there, you needed to wait a bit longer.

[Moto-Brian]

No swet Brian, I never see you make bad pass on me or anybodyelse.if everybody ride and pass like you we will have lot more fun there.if somebody complaint about been pass too close go to intermediate.people need relies in advance you never know how many club or pro racers come to ride.they comfort level are lot bigger and what other think is too close for them they still give more distance compare to race.hold your line and don't worry how close they are,if they don't hit you and they don't cost you crash it's good pass.

Thanks, Rusty. I try hard to be as nice as I can. I think at track days there is no need to be aggressive and bomb corners and riders to make a lap.

But, back to your point, if the riders were like yourself that were smooth and predictable, there wouldn't be any of this to worry about. Not saying there are a majority of inconsistent or erratic riders. I actually feel they are a minority and most are really, really good and awesome to deal with.

I also think the example guy was smooth and fine also, but there was an issue where I think when a rider considers something close, it could be because they came over and didn't see the passing rider until well after the passing rider was obligated to that turn. So, it actually becomes a close pass...

[Moto-Brian]

So, what you are saying is that guys on 1K bikes that park it in the corner are a menace and they should be banned?

Now, I am not in A where the rules are a bit different but from my I perspective, I think you forgot it was a track day and you were in race mode.

Practice what you teach us newbies:

Rider in front has the track,

No passing on the inside,

Hot pit and create some room.

I hear this a lot and even catch myself doing it. Only when I remind myself that it is a track day and there are 100 other things I could focus on vs trying to over take the guy in front of me am I able to get out of race mode. Take the hot pit, refocus and go out and have fun.

Trust me, they aren't just the liter bike riders that have issues. I've seen lightweight bikes cause serious issues as well. It is a rider issue - not a bike issue. You can ride any bike of any size and whether you are new or experienced, the rider makes the bike go well or not.

As for the passing issues, passing is going to happen and especially in Advanced, you will get inside passing. Inside passing is totally accepted. I'd even consider an inside pass under braking a norm. You cannot run a trackday in Advanced or Intermediate without passing allowed...

[YSR_Racer_99]

Brian,

I'm glad you finally opened up a door for us to discuss this. For years I've been wanting to talk to you about that crappy pass you put on me at Grattan in '95. Turn four clockwise. Still pissed about it.

Not.

[Moto-Brian]

block pass on the inside. you won't make a lap time, but you'll get in front.

There is no room for block passes in a track day.

[Moto-Brian]

Brian,

I'm glad you finally opened up a door for us to discuss this. For years I've been wanting to talk to you about that crappy pass you put on me at Grattan in '95. Turn four clockwise. Still pissed about it.

Not.

HAHAHAHAHA! I don't even remember that! I used to get passed a LOT back then and remember we had some cool races together and with several of the group of guys we raced with.

95? HMMMMMM... I think I was running just WERA National Challenge stuff in the C Production and B Production classes... That was my last year as a novice, I think...

[Hollywood33]

Let's do it.

I don't know you personally and assume you don't know me entirely. So I'll fill you in a little on my skillz. I'm a novice racer, this year was my first full season of racing. Did a few Mini 20's last year but that was it. I've gotten a lot faster this year compared to last. I ran pretty consistent mid-high 1:13's at Nelson the last couple races there.

I've gotten into a couple situations where I'm behind a rider in a race that is running just a tiny bit slower than me and I can't get around him. It's usually a situation where they are consistently taking a very inside, defensive line, so my only option would be to pass on the outside. I tried to make the pass there a couple times but wound up just getting pushed wide and had to let them have the spot vs. getting ran off track. I then tried to set up a little better by staying back 3-4 bike lengths and letting my faster corner and exit speed catch them. This sort of worked, but I wound up catching back up and making up the 3-4 bike lengths I left between us but not enough to make the pass.

School me on any kind of techniques there might be on making a pass on someone that is slower, but only by a couple tenths/lap.

Feel free to stuff me/block pass me on the inside, I trust you.... and I'd definitely do the same to you! Just make sure you show me a wheel first.

(This is race talk by the way)

[TRMN8TR]

There is no room for block passes in a track day.

I think he was commenting on my post about passing in a race situation.

[wantahertzdonut]

Wantahertz, were you trailing a black gsxr with a rear facing camera(me) for the last few laps of the mixed session?

I may have been but can't remember specifically. I think there was one bike that I was slowly closing in on during the last 2 laps of the session, but I wasn't exactly close, nor did I catch what bike it was. I was sort of in my own world for most of the group.

I ride a yellow SV, yellow helmet, blue/black/white suit, #55. Was I giving you trouble?

[Moto-Brian]

This....I have found that this was my major hurdle this year. I would run with Bill up front after catching him after one of my patented crappy starts and I would get stuck behind him. I can run about 1 second quicker a lap than him (depending on the day) but I don't like to be a dick in a pass.

I found that I needed to study his lines to figure out how to pass him without it being too close. During a sprint race, you almost don't have enough time to study the other rider for a few laps.

To you and TRM...

The idea for a great chance to pass when the times are close or you have to make a bold move to get by, try working on drive corners. Drive corners are VERY important and allow you to set up passing well into the next area where it is feasible.

Taking Nelson as an example...

The last turn on to the front straight. Get a great drive and plan your approach and exit with the guy in front and if you can pull a better drive, you may not get passed him on the straight, but it will pull you forward to be able to outbrake into turn one.

Turn 4 is a drive turn also. A great outbraking turn also to the entry, but BE CAREFUL! You may scrub too much speed going in and lose drive out and have the guy come around the outside.

Carousel is a drive turn also. Get a great drive out and you will put bike lengths on your guy instantly.

Kink. Outside wide open. Pass.

Drive corners are so important and typically not as well discussed as I would like in track day formats. They discuss braking and passing under brakes for example, but nothing about drive corners. Look at your favorite track. How many drive corners vs braking corners? More drives usually...

[TRMN8TR]

Feel free to stuff me/block pass me on the inside, I trust you.... and I'd definitely do the same to you! Just make sure you show me a wheel first.

I tried but I wasn't successful. Just couldn't get the wheel up there in time.

BTW, are you buying the cd from Marty this time so I can get my pictures, lol. I think you are in every one of the race shots of me.

Edited October 26, 2012 by TRMN8TR

[madcat6183]

To you and TRM...

The idea for a great chance to pass when the times are close or you have to make a bold move to get by, try working on drive corners. Drive corners are VERY important and allow you to set up passing well into the next area where it is feasible.

Taking Nelson as an example...

The last turn on to the front straight. Get a great drive and plan your approach and exit with the guy in front and if you can pull a better drive, you may not get passed him on the straight, but it will pull you forward to be able to outbrake into turn one.

Turn 4 is a drive turn also. A great outbraking turn also to the entry, but BE CAREFUL! You may scrub too much speed going in and lose drive out and have the guy come around the outside.

Carousel is a drive turn also. Get a great drive out and you will put bike lengths on your guy instantly.

Kink. Outside wide open. Pass.

Drive corners are so important and typically not as well discussed as I would like in track day formats. They discuss braking and passing under brakes for example, but nothing about drive corners. Look at your favorite track. How many drive corners vs braking corners? More drives usually...

I actually had typed something about Nelson with turn 4 and the caresoul just like what Brian said here, but my PC crashed. Granted I don't pass many people, and usually am trying to not get lapped(I didn't last Nelson round I ran lol), I do get to pass 3-4 guys usually during the race and always use what Brian said with 4 and caresoul/back straight.

I haven't figured 1 out as well as I'd like to pass, but do set them up for turns 2-4 to pass, but in the track days I always get run wide going into 4 and get not so happy having to dive back down to go around.

This is a good thread. Brian, maybe start a weekly topic about track day/racing, something new every week through the winter, it will keep us from going nuts.

[Hollywood33]

Feel free to stuff me/block pass me on the inside, I trust you.... and I'd definitely do the same to you! Just make sure you show me a wheel first.

I tried but I wasn't successful. Just couldn't get the wheel up there in time.

BTW, are you buying the cd from Marty this time so I can get my pictures, lol. I think you are in every one of the race shots of me.

No shit, I could hear you right behind me the whole SBK 2 race! And I pride myself on my defensive lines, haha.

I guess it is my turn to buy, but you don't really want a whole CD of pictures of you behind me do you?

[RidersDiscount]

There is no room for block passes in a track day.

I wasn't talking about a trackday, terminator was discussing race situation.

[Hollywood33]

If you get a great drive out of the carousel, it sets you up nicely. Also, one of my favorite places to pass is outbreaking someone into 12. Hit the kink as fast as possible and dive up the inside of 12 right after. You gotta be committed though before you even start going through the kink, since people generally set up wide for 12 and then dive inside.

[Moto-Brian]

I think he was commenting on my post about passing in a race situation.

Ahhhhh.... Sorry Nate!!

[TRMN8TR]

No shit, I could hear you right behind me the whole SBK 2 race! And I pride myself on my defensive lines, haha.

I guess it is my turn to buy, but you don't really want a whole CD of pictures of you behind me do you?

No...that's why you should buy it and just tag me in the pictures. If you woulda just let me around you I woulda been out of your way.

[Hollywood33]

No...that's why you should buy it and just tag me in the pictures. If you woulda just let me around you I woulda been out of your way.

Haha, I'm just messin with you! I will never let you by me, if you were really that held up, you would've gotten around me at some point, somewhere.

That race was fun as hell though! And we pushed each other well into the 13's, which I'm pretty happy with since that was well beyond my goal for the year.

[RHill]

I may have been but can't remember specifically. I think there was one bike that I was slowly closing in on during the last 2 laps of the session, but I wasn't exactly close, nor did I catch what bike it was. I was sort of in my own world for most of the group.

I ride a yellow SV, yellow helmet, blue/black/white suit, #55. Was I giving you trouble?

Nah, must not have been you. It was a red bike with a camera on the front, didnt have a ton straight line acceleration so I think it was an sv. He was catching me under braking and in many turns. It is actually in that video I posted earlier. I wish I would have known he was back there, I would have let him around and followed to try and improve my lines.

[wantahertzdonut]

I'll have to check the video when I get home. It may have been Mike (the guy that runs the timing) since we usually pace off of each other. He's riding his friend's red CBR but doesn't go 100%. If I was in view, it may have been him.

I know there was one guy in a black suit that was very tough for me to pass, he'd block my lines and walk me on the straight. I had to use the maneuver I described earlier and got him on the outside of T13 going onto the front straight. But it was a little closer than I would have preferred as he started coming up on my right toward the exit. Fortunately I carried enough speed to get away from him and was already accelerating while he was setting up to roll on the throttle. I looked for him afterward to ask if it was too close but couldn't find him in the pits.

[gixxie750]

I think ADVANCED class riders should be allowed to pass close as needed to get past. The real and true problem here is people in the wrong class IMO. Its near impossible to get people the leave their ego's at home and sign up for the correct(for them) class.