It's end of the season. Let's discuss a few track day topics. Passing...

[rusty]

I think ADVANCED class riders should be allowed to pass close as needed to get past. The real and true problem here is people in the wrong class IMO. Its near impossible to get people the leave their ego's at home and sign up for the correct(for them) class.

Amen

[rusty]

If somebody breath on your neck lap after lap and they try to pass you and you ride defensive lines not allowing them pass you safely,you deserve to be stuff.its track day so let others have fun too,allowe them pass maybe you can learn something.

[madcat6183]

If somebody breath on your neck lap after lap and they try to pass you and you ride defensive lines not allowing them pass you safely,you deserve to be stuff.its track day so let others have fun too,allowe them pass maybe you can learn something.

Agreed with this and Gixxie too!

[wantahertzdonut]

I can agree with that, I have no problem letting traffic by because I like to see other people's lines/brake points/turn-in points. But at the same time many people may just get mad and then crash trying to keep up.

I thought passing rules were pretty open in A group. At least in Motoseries, they describe A group as "open practice" which to me means going full tilt as if you were racing. Is that different for other organizations?

[TRMN8TR]

Haha, I'm just messin with you! I will never let you by me, if you were really that held up, you would've gotten around me at some point, somewhere.

That race was fun as hell though! And we pushed each other well into the 13's, which I'm pretty happy with since that was well beyond my goal for the year.

I wasn't necessarily referring to this race or you even. I'm just a bad passer in general. I've been behind a few guys that shouldn't have held me up but did.

[Moto-Brian]

I think ADVANCED class riders should be allowed to pass close as needed to get past. The real and true problem here is people in the wrong class IMO. Its near impossible to get people the leave their ego's at home and sign up for the correct(for them) class.

It's not a race. You allow any distance passing in Advanced and you are going to have crashes galore. Stuff passing and aggressive passing will be the norm and cause serious issues. Not a good idea at all.

Plus, there are NUMEROUS Advanced riders that can run a set lap time and be smooth and consistent and be fine, but are not going to have the speed that say, you are going to have and passing needs to be civil, controlled and at a set distance AS A GOAL. Understand that the goal can be set and you will still have closer than asked for passing.

Overall, the advanced group has zero instruction which I want to change and has almost zero input from instructors. There are several riders in Advanced that need moved down for safety reasons and the fact that they will have more fun in a group of like riders and like abilities. You are right that there are riders that need to be in a different group. But, that is ANY group and ANY level.

[Moto-Brian]

I can agree with that, I have no problem letting traffic by because I like to see other people's lines/brake points/turn-in points. But at the same time many people may just get mad and then crash trying to keep up.

I thought passing rules were pretty open in A group. At least in Motoseries, they describe A group as "open practice" which to me means going full tilt as if you were racing. Is that different for other organizations?

Another issue however is that riders SHOULD NOT be looking over their shoulders worrying about what is behind them. A pretty damn awesome AMA Pro told me once at Road Atlanta that I need to worry about what is in front of me and race forward. If I race what is behind me, I will be worse off and cause issue when they need to get by. I was talking to him about when they were coming up behind me in practice...

So, looking over your shoulder is a BAD idea and preached to NOT be done by riders. Only instructors should be looking over their shoulders looking for customers to assist as they lap.

[Hollywood33]

I wasn't necessarily referring to this race or you even. I'm just a bad passer in general. I've been behind a few guys that shouldn't have held me up but did.

I definitely feel ya, brother. Damn, I miss racing already! Next season is gonna be fun.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Hollywood33

[Hollywood33]

I think ADVANCED class riders should be allowed to pass close as needed to get past. The real and true problem here is people in the wrong class IMO. Its near impossible to get people the leave their ego's at home and sign up for the correct(for them) class.

I'm with you on this. If you can't take a good, clean, close pass in A group, well then you probably shouldn't be there.

(Notice I did say clean)

[rusty]

I will do same as Nesba do only expert racers can sign up directly to A others must qualify.which mean the track personal will evaluate you if you up to pase and you good with lines,get pass.that will eliminate some of the new instructors who run 1:45 at midohio hahaha.

[OSUYZFR1]

that will eliminate some of the new instructors who run 1:45 at midohio hahaha.

[LongDogRacing]

that will eliminate some of the new instructors who run 1:45 at midohio hahaha.

i assure you that all of the mid-ohio coaches are capable of running better than a 1:45. also, we are constantly on the lookout for riders who may be in over their heads with the group they are riding. our job is to manage traffic, watch for safety infractions, and provide assistance/guidance to riders who want it.

[CephasGT]

(And also do wheelies down the back straight in Novice group... But I digress.)

I'm of the opinion that if you're in A group and there's no contact during the pass, it's fine. And I'm not (yet) a racer, just mid-to-upper A group track day dude. The "wingspan" goal is absolutely good to aim for, but as has been noted, differences in lines and brake markers can sometimes make that unattainable. It's just my opinion, but I think once you're legitimately up in A group, you should know how to check up a little bit in a corner if somebody passes you a little close. You should also realize that if somebody is passing you so easily, you're probably doing something wrong, and could benefit from trying to follow the dude who just passed you.

At MO after the AMA round, I was on track when Ulrich was testing the EBR. He passed me a few times (of course), a couple of them fairly close. There was one in Thunder Alley right around the bridge that made me sit up a bit and think "HOLY WOW!" but it wasn't unsafe, just close and fast. You'll have that between an AMA Superbike and an 8 year old track day 600.

[bchristy07]

I haven't raced yet, plan on getting into it whenever the $$ allows.. But I rode quite a few trackdays this year and bumped up to Adv after 2 days in Int I believe. I felt I was ready to make the jump after riding in the twilight session and feeling confident that my lines were smooth and predictable.

I can think of 2 times where I was passed that it spooked me, one was up the inside in T12/13 whatever the left hander before the carrousel is, and once up the inside into the turn before thunder valley. They were both very clean passes, no contact, plenty of room, and both of those passes were from one of my good friends. I raced MX for a few years and had no problems bumping elbows, bars, whatever it may be.. But the first time I had a pass where someone went through the line that I was targeting, it spooked me. After those 2 initial inside passes I was fine with similar instances.

Even though it was my buddy that passed me, I wouldn't have been pissed off if some stranger put the same passing move on me. If you're in advanced you have to expect that kind of stuff to happen with the quicker pace. I was warned by a few friends before I bumped up. If I felt that I was a hazard to other riders I would have bumped back down to Int, no ego involved. Maybe the dude you were passing just likes that safety bubble with no one around his line, in that case he needs to just suck it up or get faster .. You just have to run your lines, not worry about what's behind you, and just not be a dick. ..And possibly have fun too.

[CephasGT]

That brings up another good point. Passing rules are created with a simple straight-corner-straight in mind, seems like. But there are places on most tracks where, depending on the disparity in the two riders' speed, you can make a quick and clean pass, even though things are a little more complex.

One I use quite a bit is the short chute between T8 and T9 at MO. A lot of people (even in A group) don't drive very hard out of 8 and swing way, way over to the left side of the track before 9, so I'll shoot as hard as I can out of 8 and come into 9 kinda narrow. Usually I'm well past them by the time we tip in, but I guess some might consider it a block pass. Nobody's ever said anything to me about it, though.

[Moto-Brian]

I will do same as Nesba do only expert racers can sign up directly to A others must qualify.which mean the track personal will evaluate you if you up to pase and you good with lines,get pass.that will eliminate some of the new instructors who run 1:45 at midohio hahaha.

I see the advantage of having such qualifiers in groups like NESBA's "A" group, but the fact is that allowing just race license riders and evaluated (Would essentially be able to run a racer's pace) riders is something that would eliminate customers from attending.

Mid-O has a self evaluation platform and I think that is good. Same with Ducati Indy days etc...

Essentially, most track days run this formula and seeing that the success is pretty much higher than NESBA's, I think it works.

The fact however, is that the instructors need to evaluate and be more proactive in moving people up and down. There are several riders that are repeat customers that are just not capable of running "A" level pace. They've been at the track and running the track more than most and yet they have not got better. Thus, they should be put down to "I" group or taken and helped one on one and taught the things needed to get better. Otherwise, they are really, a hazard out there.

There is one guy that is always there and rides "A" group every time. I have suggested that he be moved down as he is unpredictable and even has on occasion, made some moves that were dangerous for "A", but would have been fine in "I". He can probably run 1-2 average paced laps, but overall, he is difficult to predict and is erratic in line choice. I think I have asked maybe 1/2 dozen times and have given up. He needs assistance, but I never see a coach with him. He isn't getting better, smoother or faster and should be an "I" rider.

I know Todd at Mid-O is going to be addressing this issue as well. I believe that each year, the system gets better and better as a result of the hard work of Brett, Steve and now Todd. Those guys care about the system and the program and are taking steps to make things better. I promise.

But, with ANY track day org., there are going to be these same issues. It's just a fact. The idea of racers only in the "A" group eliminates a lot of customers and that's not good. Probably why NESBA has been dropping tracks and membership year after year. Too many other options that cater to the average track day rider...

As for the instructor issue... Well, I won't comment as a few are on here and get a little upset that comments are made publicly. But, I agree 100%. If the instructor does not have the experience nor ability to be in a set group level, how can they be effective at instructing? I also believe that there is a lot of bad info being put out there for riders in their quest at getting better. That needs to be adjusted and only a qualified instructor giving that info or instructing a group.

[Moto-Brian]

i assure you that all of the mid-ohio coaches are capable of running better than a 1:45. also, we are constantly on the lookout for riders who may be in over their heads with the group they are riding. our job is to manage traffic, watch for safety infractions, and provide assistance/guidance to riders who want it.

Uh, some are not, my friend. The fact is that if you are an Advanced instructor, you should be able to manage traffic, move up through that traffic to evaluate the riders in that group and be able to constructively teach the riders as well as understand what is needed to have them advance in ability and technique. There are a few instructors that cannot meet that criteria.

Now, I do believe that not every staff member needs to be an Advanced level rider and can be exceptional at instructing Intermediate and Novice. There are many that are at that level and would be great at doing that.

But, in Advanced, there is a select few instructors that shouldn't be wearing a vest out there and are not capable of getting through traffic to assist others.

Also, it isn't about "who wants it". It should also include "Who need it". Instructors need to be proactive. There is an intimidation level of riders at track days in asking for assistance. Many never do as a result. That hurdle exists everywhere and at every track day.

Now, understand that MOST the staff at Mid-O do an exceptional and wonderful job. I have seen several instructors be proactive, assist and instruct/teach. Many will follow and help through an entire session and work one on one several times.

[Moto-Brian]

That brings up another good point. Passing rules are created with a simple straight-corner-straight in mind, seems like. But there are places on most tracks where, depending on the disparity in the two riders' speed, you can make a quick and clean pass, even though things are a little more complex.

One I use quite a bit is the short chute between T8 and T9 at MO. A lot of people (even in A group) don't drive very hard out of 8 and swing way, way over to the left side of the track before 9, so I'll shoot as hard as I can out of 8 and come into 9 kinda narrow. Usually I'm well past them by the time we tip in, but I guess some might consider it a block pass. Nobody's ever said anything to me about it, though.

It is a great spot to pass and is an easy spot to do so. It only becomes a block pass when you stuff up inside as they are turning in and you stand them up. Otherwise, if it is tight and you take the line away, it isn't ever usually an issue as you can still adjust to make the turn and drive out.

That drive out of 8 you refer is a great spot to drive from, but it is also important to set the turn up in 9 for drive between 9 and 10. Almost more important in terms of lap times as several drive well down the hill, but are slow through 9 and the entry to 10.

[aforrest4]

So, was sitting and having an awesome discussion on track days and racing and such with a few buddies. The topic of passing came up in track days. One of the guys that was with a buddy was a bit upset over some passes. He mentioned a pass that I even put on him at Mid-Ohio and felt it was just too close and wasn't what was told to be the norm by the track day director Todd...

So, we all started in on the topic and I came away thinking it would be a good topic to discuss on a forum...

The idea is that yes, the rule is a "wingspan" in Advanced. Bigger in Intermediate. Those are guidelines of course and shit happens where it will be closer on occasion. But, if used as a guide, it shouldn't be an issue on either party's side.

The bottom line is that the one passing (passer) is responsible for a safe and clean pass. In this case, even responsible for the distance between when passing.

Well, that's great in theory.

I've passed guys while leaning on them in a race, I've banged into a guy when stuffing him like a Thanksgiving turkey and I have also been stuffed and hit by others when I was first racing. Shoulders, elbows, knees, etc. All have brushed, been hit or used when hitting/passing.

All under race conditions and most unintentional. For the most part, I have never been accused of a dirty pass or even an aggressive pass.

During track days, things are different. I don't honestly trust most the riders and with that, I try to avoid close passes. Reason is two fold. One, I don't want to spook a rider. I just want to try and make it clean and quick enough that I am there and gone in an effort to just do my thing and get on down the road. I will pass quickly and cruise after. Meaning, I will speed up to pass and drop the hammer if need be to get by and then step it down after so I can run a normal and uneventful pace.

Two, I don't want to be taken out. This is something that has happened to me and the reason was due to the first issue. Rider got spooked and I ended up highsiding and a dislocated shoulder and a concussion and a severely broken bike. I honestly try and make it a quick in and out and do this as often as I can to avoid this. Or, if they do get spooked, it is after I am either far enough passed them that if they do get spooked and sit up or react in a way that could cause issue, I am out of the danger zone.

So, getting back to the guy that had issue. The scenario:

Guy rides a big twin. He is a fairly capable Advanced level track day guy. NOT a racer, but I would say he is above average in terms of pace and ability. Smooth and fairly predictable. Easy enough, right? But, there is the typical issues. His bike is fast out of a corner due to the big twin and has ass down the straights. All well and fine, but the issue then is that the typical part being that he brakes too much and has slower corner speed. Thus, you draw him back under brakes and mid corner.

So, in this case, I get up on the guy at the entry of the Keyhole and do not catch him before the exit. I draw him in from a distance, but he is exiting before me and I have to deal with that big motor. I get a better drive and allows me to start the process of SLOWLY drawing him in. I essentially cause a stalemate as the better drive compensates for the lack of horsepower and I essentially maintain a gap from behind him.

I anticipate that he will brake early and scrub a lot of speed going in off the back straight into 7. I move out right and go to pass under him into 7 like I have done maybe a thousand times. He however comes down into the turn on me and it is closer than I made it to be. He sits up as he finally sees me when right beside me. I keep the speed and carry on. I get into Thunder and look over my shoulder to see if he was there and he wasn't before I turned around. Basically, he was well back at that point.

The second scenario:

Same dude...

I come up on the guy coming under the second bridge. I gain ground in Thunder even more so. In typical fashion, turn 13 (called 14 on a map due to superstition) is a turn that tends to get a lot of guys braking early and running slower than needed there. It's an awesome passing point, but if somewhat "iffy", I will wait until the carousel to pass.

Well, it was "iffy" so, I drive well out of 13 (14) and into the carousel. He sets up wide left which is also typical and I take the inside line. Again, he is MUCH wider left to me than the line I typically take and in fact, I was taking the same line I always do so, it wasn't any tighter nor squared off. However, again... He comes across and down into the turn and I am there and it sits him up. Closer this time, but no contact and I drive out and keep on moving. That one was a pass that I didn't even think was an issue, but was more of an issue in his mind.

So, during the conversation, I remember he had come over to the garage where my buddy was and my buddy throws me under the bus telling the guy I was the asshole that stuffed him twice out there. Thanks, Mike!

He gets a little huffy and I ask him why he was pissed? He said it was really close and that I stuffed him which is not what is supposed to happen. He also was upset that I wasn't even running with anyone else and that I could have just waited. So, I basically told him they were clean passes and that there was more than enough room and were both safe and smooth. I mentioned he was off line a good bit and came across on both occasions and I was already obligated.

So, here's my comment for discussion...

The thought occurred to me that you can make a nice and clean pass that is about 6' away from another rider. I started the pass much earlier than he realized and I think the issue is that while making the pass, I was within that safe distance asked to be followed by track directors, but when the rider came down and across, he did not see me nor know I was there until he was already leaned over and pointing towards the apex. So, he came across and I was already in the spot he was aiming for. That shock that the spot was filled spooked him and caused him to sit up. So, he feels I stuffed him as before his turn in, I was there occupying that portion of the track.

I guess what I am saying is that I was making clean pass and obligated and started something that was safe and clean. It ended clean - no touching and we had a good bit of room even though he thought otherwise - but, the issue isn't the pass itself, but rather, the time the passee realized I was there passing...

I also think that a lot of times, what is close to one person is a MILE away for another. Comfort zones, experience, etc come into play. There are also times where I fuck up. I can target a pass under braking off the back straight or even turn one and when I get in there hot, realize sometimes early enough it is too close and get 'er shut down hard and avoid it being an aggressive pass or sometimes, I cannot change the delivery of the pass intended and due to the speed difference, for me to shut it down and not make the pass, I am weighing a crash that could take more than myself out or make a stuff/aggressive pass and move along.

I am not saying I am Rossi here so, for you guys reading this as arrogant and holier-than-thou at track days, that's not the case at all. This happens to a lot of guys and even Intermediate riders. This is something I was thinking about and thought to share to see what others think...

Discuss.

Hey Brian!

Great topic!

Based on your description, I assume you are saying your friend is an A group rider. If he as a mid pack A track day rider like myself, but rocking a liter bike, he has to understand that if he gets decent drives, passing under breaks is the other rider's ONLY option to pass. Especially if they are on a slower bike. If they kept the wingspan rule while passing, then no I see no issue. Granted there will always be slight lapses in judgement. But it sounded like you were already next to him at the turn in point. So it should have been fine.

But if he gets spooked while being passed like that, then he should consider bumping back to the I group until he gets more comfortable with passing and being passed. Or riding a smaller bike that can be overtaken in the straights. It will be the fastest way for him to learn corner speed.

If you two were in the I group, then you should have waited for him to make a mistake and pass on the outside, or pulled through the pits and waited for an opening to re-enter the track.

Since I moved down to a 600 last year, I understand the frustration of trying to pass a faster bike in the straights but slower in the turns. But it has been a great learning experience for me to try new lines and watch for mistakes to take advantage of. I do my best to let the pass-ee know I'm next to them as early as possible as to not spook them. I usually hear someone trying to go by a few corners before they get me in some of the harder breaking areas. I'm still a pussy on the breaks. But getting better! Luckily I have never been one to spook easily.

Now as for racing, look for openings and go for it, but you go to far if you are going to push them off the track. When they run a defensive line, they will be slower than you, but it can work to keep you behind them. Don't get frustrated, take a wider entry and drive under them on the way out of the turn, if they turn in early and come out early, take a wider line and drive or the outside. Just try to get on the gas just a little earlier than they do... without high siding. Do you best to be on the inside of the next oncoming turn. Being on the inside and breaking as late or later then they do will guarantee that they will have to yield to you or be pushed wide, but in that case, it is their fault if they don't.

[Hoblick]

Also, it isn't about "who wants it". It should also include "Who need it". Instructors need to be proactive. There is an intimidation level of riders at track days in asking for assistance. Many never do as a result. That hurdle exists everywhere and at every track day.

this is the best thing ive ever read you post

the biggest thing i hear from guys i have done trackdays with is

"i need help"

or where is the instructors, who should i talk to.

and the biggest comment i hear is

"is someone supposed to be helping me"

i tell them you gotta be proactive about wanting help. go ask a CR to follow you, or tow you around.

and they usually will, but then there is no follow up when they get off the track, and they get discouraged.

i have got discouraged as well. i really want to progress more, but i cant do it by myself. i dont want to continue to do things the wrong way if im doing them wrong, or whatever.

i try to "coach" myself when im on the track, i see alot of stuff i do wrong and try to correct it. but im sure there is alot more im not seeing thats holding me back.

[Moto-Brian]

this is the best thing ive ever read you post

the biggest thing i hear from guys i have done trackdays with is

"i need help"

or where is the instructors, who should i talk to.

and the biggest comment i hear is

"is someone supposed to be helping me"

i tell them you gotta be proactive about wanting help. go ask a CR to follow you, or tow you around.

and they usually will, but then there is no follow up when they get off the track, and they get discouraged.

i have got discouraged as well. i really want to progress more, but i cant do it by myself. i dont want to continue to do things the wrong way if im doing them wrong, or whatever.

i try to "coach" myself when im on the track, i see alot of stuff i do wrong and try to correct it. but im sure there is alot more im not seeing thats holding me back.

This is a HUGE hurdle and needs to be addressed. However, CR are different than Instructors. Instructors instruct while control riders monitor and assist at times. At Mid-O, they have instructors and they should be doing just that. However, a lot do not and therefore are just CRs out there and that's not helping anyone.

I have a few ideas on how to get the connection between riders wanting help and maybe being too intimidated with asking for help and maybe even instructors not finding the riders needing help.

As mentioned before with the wheelies and stuff, that is fairly a small group of instructors. Albeit, they need to be talked to and fix the issues or just simply find another org to ride with.

The idea that these guys are volunteers is totally fine, but they need to understand that they are there for helping customers FIRST and track time secondary.

Again, most get it and do it. Just a few do not.

My suggestion would be for the organization you ride with that has maybe some issues with the instructors or CRs, you write an email or post something on their forum if they have one. The only way things can change is if they are mentioned. Otherwise, people will continue to go along as they do because they will never hear the issues. If they never hear them, they cannot be proactive and get them fixed/addressed.

You should NEVER have to teach yourself. Never. Plus, the idea of teaching yourself is fine, but if you do not know what you should be doing to correct something, you may develop a bad habit or do something wrong and get hurt. Or, you may not even know that you are doing something that can be holding back your development and simply truck along doing something that is holding you back and never even know it.

[Hoblick]

You should NEVER have to teach yourself. Never. Plus, the idea of teaching yourself is fine, but if you do not know what you should be doing to correct something, you may develop a bad habit or do something wrong and get hurt. Or, you may not even know that you are doing something that can be holding back your development and simply truck along doing something that is holding you back and never even know it.

My thoughts exactly

[Revelstoker]

This is a HUGE hurdle and needs to be addressed. However, CR are different than Instructors. Instructors instruct while control riders monitor and assist at times. At Mid-O, they have instructors and they should be doing just that. However, a lot do not and therefore are just CRs out there and that's not helping anyone.

If this is the case, could instructors wear different color vests than CR's as a way to identify individuals to ask for help?

Or, could "rookie" vests be obtained by the riders that are moving up into a new group, new to the track or on a new bike?

[wantahertzdonut]

Another issue however is that riders SHOULD NOT be looking over their shoulders worrying about what is behind them. A pretty damn awesome AMA Pro told me once at Road Atlanta that I need to worry about what is in front of me and race forward. If I race what is behind me, I will be worse off and cause issue when they need to get by. I was talking to him about when they were coming up behind me in practice...

So, looking over your shoulder is a BAD idea and preached to NOT be done by riders. Only instructors should be looking over their shoulders looking for customers to assist as they lap.

I don't know if this is a usual problem or not. I've only seen CR's doing shoulder checks for the reasons you state above. As far as I'm concerned, what is behind me doesn't matter until it gets next to me.

this is the best thing ive ever read you post

the biggest thing i hear from guys i have done trackdays with is

"i need help"

or where is the instructors, who should i talk to.

and the biggest comment i hear is

"is someone supposed to be helping me"

i tell them you gotta be proactive about wanting help. go ask a CR to follow you, or tow you around.

and they usually will, but then there is no follow up when they get off the track, and they get discouraged.

i have got discouraged as well. i really want to progress more, but i cant do it by myself. i dont want to continue to do things the wrong way if im doing them wrong, or whatever.

i try to "coach" myself when im on the track, i see alot of stuff i do wrong and try to correct it. but im sure there is alot more im not seeing thats holding me back.

I haven't had a problem getting help when I needed it unless I was out with STT.

It would be nice if the CR's would make it known where they're pitting so someone who wants help would know where to go. Sometimes you just have to get in from the track and get out of your suit, but you don't want to have to wander around the whole pit area trying to find someone for assistance.

I've spoken to CR's, and other riders too. I think almost everyone is happy to help and critique.

[Moto-Brian]

If this is the case, could instructors wear different color vests than CR's as a way to identify individuals to ask for help?

Or, could "rookie" vests be obtained by the riders that are moving up into a new group, new to the track or on a new bike?

Track days have either control riders or instructors... Mid-O has instructors.