.308 or 30/06?

[walther_gsp]

Yeah what I am thinking, savage with a "cheap" scope would do me fine.

I have a cheap vortex that I'll lend you to see if you like it, they retail for $200.

[ReconRat]

Know what? When I think about it, a mil dot would probably be easier for my old eyes to see. Same with the 30-30 reticule. I do think the mil-dot setup is over rated though. And if it's got a drop setup for 223 or 308 in it, that's worthless for another cartridge.

I get the impression there is more than one type of mil dot. The ones made for military usage aren't quite right for hunting or target use.

edit: and back on subject: I like 308 over 30-06, and like 300 win mag for anything greater.

Mildots will never be understood or used as designed by 99% of shooters but it makes them feel like Tactical Timmys.

Edited November 9, 2012 by ReconRat

[walther_gsp]

edit: and back on subject: I like 308 over 30-06, and like 300 win mag for anything greater.

Guess that makes Flounder and myself the 1% and you part of the 99%. Feel free to demonize us like the Occupy folks.

[8mmDale]

I'm partial to .30-06 because of it's old and its still around after all that time. Plus I have metric shit tons of brass for it.

[MidgetTodd]

I'll take chain fed 50, I like to get my point across when I open fire

[BadTrainDriver]

I'll take chain fed 50, I like to get my point across when I open fire

Still not overkill...unless we're squirrel hunting

[ReconRat]

Guess that makes Flounder and myself the 1% and you part of the 99%. Feel free to demonize us like the Occupy folks.

I suppose so. But I'll say an old Enfield 30-06 will out shoot just about anything.

[speedytriple]

Might take you up on the offer Tom for the vortex scope. It will be used very little and mostly under 500 yards.

[cOoTeR]

Give us a budget and your expected use, and we'll help you find something.

I know the AR-10 is not a long range gun like a Remington .700 or a Barrett. When I bought it I wanted a long range rifle to learn long range shooting with. (500+ yards). The rifle can be capable of 1000+ but with a awesome shooter. That's not me. Although I do want to learn to get as close to that as I can and 500+ is my current goal then step it up once I reach that.

Since I've moved out west I can hunt with it so I will probably use it for that too. The only restriction on the .308 out her is magazine capacity. But they allow it to be used on coyote, white tail, mule deer, mountain lion, bear, elk and sheep. So I'm eventually going to use it on hunting too.

The rifle has a 24in bull barrel and I'm not too concerned about the weight of the scope. I'll want something rugged though so I can hike it up through the mountains out side of its case. I was thinking starting around $600-$750 dollar range.

[flounder]

I suppose so. But I'll say an old Enfield 30-06 will out shoot just about anything.

You would be quite wrong if you did say that.

[flounder]

I know the AR-10 is not a long range gun like a Remington .700 or a Barrett. When I bought it I wanted a long range rifle to learn long range shooting with. (500+ yards). The rifle can be capable of 1000+ but with a awesome shooter. That's not me. Although I do want to learn to get as close to that as I can and 500+ is my current goal then step it up once I reach that.

Since I've moved out west I can hunt with it so I will probably use it for that too. The only restriction on the .308 out her is magazine capacity. But they allow it to be used on coyote, white tail, mule deer, mountain lion, bear, elk and sheep. So I'm eventually going to use it on hunting too.

The rifle has a 24in bull barrel and I'm not too concerned about the weight of the scope. I'll want something rugged though so I can hike it up through the mountains out side of its case. I was thinking starting around $600-$750 dollar range.

AR10 definitely is a LR gun.. Techniques for driving gas guns are a bit different that bolt guns and it takes more practice. Also, unless put together by a builder that knows their shit, the AR10 platform is a bit harder to accurize over a standard bolt gun. (Lots of heavy, moving parts in the AR10 platform)

[cOoTeR]

AR10 definitely is a LR gun.. Techniques for driving gas guns are a bit different that bolt guns and it takes more practice. Also, unless put together by a builder that knows their shit, the AR10 platform is a bit harder to accurize over a standard bolt gun. (Lots of heavy, moving parts in the AR10 platform)

Hence why its not like the 2 LR guns I mentioned. When I bought it I couldn't decide in a Remington 700 or getting an AR-15. Found the AR-10 and figured it was kind of a mix of the two with sacrifices being made on certain aspects of it.

[walther_gsp]

I suppose so. But I'll say an old Enfield 30-06 will out shoot just about anything.

Care to place wager on that?

[flounder]

FYI, this is my 400yard target that I can poke from the deck. Ill be setting the rest up this weekend out to 1,000 but I have to shoot them from a different angle from out in the field in order to get the distance and be safe.

Also need to put my wind flags on the top so I know whats going on out there.

As you can see from the distance behind the target, I have quite a distance I can reach out to. I limit it to 1200 yards so I have ~700 yard safety buffer behind the furthest target being shot at.

Edited November 9, 2012 by flounder

[walther_gsp]

i know the ar-10 is not a long range gun like a remington .700 or a barrett. When i bought it i wanted a long range rifle to learn long range shooting with. (500+ yards). The rifle can be capable of 1000+ but with a awesome shooter. That's not me. Although i do want to learn to get as close to that as i can and 500+ is my current goal then step it up once i reach that.

Since i've moved out west i can hunt with it so i will probably use it for that too. The only restriction on the .308 out her is magazine capacity. But they allow it to be used on coyote, white tail, mule deer, mountain lion, bear, elk and sheep. So i'm eventually going to use it on hunting too.

The rifle has a 24in bull barrel and i'm not too concerned about the weight of the scope. I'll want something rugged though so i can hike it up through the mountains out side of its case. I was thinking starting around $600-$750 dollar range.

dpms lr308?

[walther_gsp]

FYI, this is my 400yard target that I can poke from the deck. Ill be setting the rest up this weekend out to 1,000 but I have to shoot them from a different angle from out in the field in order to get the distance and be safe.

Also need to put my wind flags on the top so I know whats going on out there.

I'm free Sunday ya know.....

[flounder]

I'm free Sunday ya know.....

Sunday is when ill be putting up the rest of the targets. It will take a a while so I would hate for you to drive all that way for only a short period of shooting. You think the wind at TVP is bad, it has nothing on the wind at my place. Completely flat for miles and nothing really to use to read wind speed. Ive recorded 40+MPH winds on a normal day when out in the middle of the field. On average though, it wont feel like much but you almost always get full value unless its a uber calm day.

[walther_gsp]

Might take you up on the offer Tom for the vortex scope. It will be used very little and mostly under 500 yards.

It's the 6-24 crossfire with the 30mm tube, mildot reticle and moa turrents. I bought it as a temp scope until my pst came in, but never ended up really needing it.

Let me know and we can meet up and I'll help you get the rifle squared away.

[ReconRat]

lol, twist me. I might be a one percenter. I don't use mil dot. I don't even use some of the more popular scopes. I don't use 223 or 308 (or 30-06) for long range. I don't use the currently popular styles or types or manufacturers of rifles. I'm really set up quite different than everyone else.

SpeedyTriple, yes, I would go with a 30-06. With 308 a close second choice.

Some rifles are just as accurate with the 308.

[cOoTeR]

dpms lr308?

Yes sir.

[walther_gsp]

Yes sir.

That's one of the better rifles that DPMS makes. Pretty much universally good reviews. It certainly is capable for 1000 yard shooting.

[cOoTeR]

That's one of the better rifles that DPMS makes. Pretty much universally good reviews. It certainly is capable for 1000 yard shooting.

I currently am not. I work with a few guys that do a lot of long range shooting that offered to help me out.

No they are not the ones who referred me to counter sniper.

[kiggy74]

There are a lot of calibers that can shoot 1000+ yds. The goal isn't how far you can get the bullet to go, its where the bullet lands when it gets there. A stock Remington 700 and a Barrett can land a bullet at 1000 yrds, but with either of those they are going to land in an area about the size of a car. A Barrett 50 Cal is no a precision weapon, it was designed to take out vehicles. Vehicles are big, and easy to hit, get my drift? If you want to shoot 1000+ yds and plan on hitting your target consistently you are going to have to spend $$$ for a good rifle, get on Snipershide.com for more information on this.

To the OP, between the two choices you've given and the caveat that you won't typically need to shoot beyond 500 yrds, the .308 is a better choice. Will 30-06 do the job? Yes, of course it will, but unless you are a reloader .30-06 ammo is MORE expensive and harder to come by than .308. The biggest diff between these two calibers is muzzle velocity with .30-06 going about 200-300 fps faster. However the .30 cal bullet will go subsonic at about 1000 yrds regardless of how fast it was going when it left the muzzle, so all that big .30-06 is doing is burning more powder and hurting your shoulder vs a cheaper more comfortable .308.

And I need to emphasize the importance of ammo in regards to accuracy. You cannot buy surplus 7.62 ammo or M2 Ball .30-06 and expect consistent results. However, you can get Federal Match 168gr HPBT .308 for about 20 for $20, and this is considered the gold standard in off the shelf match ammo for non-reloaders. But those that are really serious in long range and/or precision shooting don't shoot factory ammo, they load their own. A novice reloader with basic equipment can easily exceed the performance of even the ammo mentioned above and a far less per round price. But to do so requires a significant up front investment in equipment. If you're on a budget, save that for later.

Hands down, the best value in an off the rack long range gun is a Savage. I owned a Savage 10 FCP-K in 308 earlier this year, and got great results with it, easily sub 1-MOA, and frequently in the 1/2 MOA range with that gun. Down side with the Savages is that they are what they are. There's really not a ton of customizations you can do to them to improve accuracy due to floating bolt head design, barrel nuts, bottom metal etc. But if you think you want to do any of these things you're going to have move away from the savage and likely into a custom/blue printed Rem700 or at least Rem700 pattern rifle. There are calibers and rifles that you can buy that will put a projectile through the same hole at 100 yrds, or an area the size of a dinner plate at 1000 yrds, over and over again. For these rifles you will spend many thousands.

The third important component is your optic. Cheap scopes are, well they're cheap. There's no point in putting any kind of $$$ into a rifle and then buying a $ scope. If your scope can't hold zero from one shot to the next then the rest doesn't matter at all. Honestly, plan on spending at least as much on your scope as your rifle. My setup with the Savage was a Viper PST with first focal plane for about $900. You can get second focal plane and save about $100. If you are shooting at fixed distances then SFP is fine. Vortex is a great scope value, they offer a lot of high end features on a quality optic for really affordable prices. Plus all their stuff carries a lifetime transferrable warranty. For reticles, I've gone from an MOA reticle to MIL this year, and I'm glad I did it. Both work, but MOA is kind of like being left-handed, MIL is just better.

Good luck.

Edited November 9, 2012 by kiggy74

[flounder]

There are a lot of calibers that can shoot 1000+ yds. The goal isn't how far you can get the bullet to go, its where the bullet lands when it gets there. A stock Remington 700 and a Barrett can land a bullet at 1000 yrds, but with either of those they are going to land in an area about the size of a car. A Barrett 50 Cal is no a precision weapon, it was designed to take out vehicles. Vehicles are big, and easy to hit, get my drift? If you want to shoot 1000+ yds and plan on hitting your target consistently you are going to have to spend $$$ for a good rifle, get on Snipershide.com for more information on this.

To the OP, between the two choices you've given and the caveat that you won't typically need to shoot beyond 500 yrds, the .308 is a better choice. Will 30-06 do the job? Yes, of course it will, but unless you are a reloader .30-06 ammo is MORE expensive and harder to come by than .308. The biggest diff between these two calibers is muzzle velocity with .30-06 going about 200-300 fps faster. However the .30 cal bullet will go subsonic at about 1000 yrds regardless of how fast it was going when it left the muzzle, so all that big .30-06 is doing is burning more powder and hurting your shoulder vs a cheaper more comfortable .308.

And I need to emphasize the importance of ammo in regards to accuracy. You cannot buy surplus 7.62 ammo or M2 Ball .30-06 and expect consistent results. However, you can get Federal Match 168gr HPBT .308 for about 20 for $20, and this is considered the gold standard in off the shelf match ammo for non-reloaders. But those that are really serious in long range and/or precision shooting don't shoot factory ammo, they load their own. A novice reloader with basic equipment can easily exceed the performance of even the ammo mentioned above and a far less per round price. But to do so requires a significant up front investment in equipment. If you're on a budget, save that for later.

Hands down, the best value in an off the rack long range gun is a Savage. I owned a Savage 10 FCP-K in 308 earlier this year, and got great results with it, easily sub 1-MOA, and frequently in the 1/2 MOA range with that gun. Down side with the Savages is that they are what they are. There's really not a ton of customizations you can do to them to improve accuracy due to floating bolt head design, barrel nuts, bottom metal etc. But if you think you want to do any of these things you're going to have move away from the savage and likely into a custom/blue printed Rem700 or at least Rem700 pattern rifle. There are calibers and rifles that you can buy that will put a projectile through the same hole at 100 yrds, or an area the size of a dinner plate at 1000 yrds, over and over again. For these rifles you will spend many thousands.

The third important component is your optic. Cheap scopes are, well they're cheap. There's no point in putting any kind of $$$ into a rifle and then buying a $ scope. If your scope can't hold zero from one shot to the next then the rest doesn't matter at all. Honestly, plan on spending at least as much on your scope as your rifle. My setup with the Savage was a Viper PST with first focal plane for about $900. You can get second focal plane and save about $100. If you are shooting at fixed distances then SFP is fine. Vortex is a great scope value, they offer a lot of high end features on a quality optic for really affordable prices. Plus all their stuff carries a lifetime transferrable warranty. For reticles, I've gone from an MOA reticle to MIL this year, and I'm glad I did it. Both work, but MOA is kind of like being left-handed, MIL is just better.

Good luck.

Just a few things you said which are not exactly true

A stock Remington 700 and a Barrett can land a bullet at 1000 yrds, but with either of those they are going to land in an area about the size of a car.

I printed a 5'inch group at 1K with my Stock Rem 700. Some shoot better than others but the size of a car im guessing was just a bit of an exaggeration on your part.

Federal Match 168gr HPBT .308 for about 20 for $20, and this is considered the gold standard in off the shelf match ammo for non-reloaders.

Actually the 175 is typically the go to as the 168HPBT tends to fall on its face after 800. With that being said, there was a slight re-design to some manufactures 168 bullet which has helped it a bit. So FGMM 175 or Black Hills 175 or if you want you can go with Southwest Ammo, Dallas Custom Reloads, etc.

Pretty good comments about Vortex. As far as optics go, either mil or moa, get what you like better, just make sure you get a scope where your reticle matches your turrets. i.e mil dot reticle with moa turrets gets to be somewhat annoying. Also, one youve shot FFP, you wont want SFP anymore. It makes life a lot easier. Of course this is 100% dependent on the type of shooting you do. For the average person, occasionally shooting and hunting, you'll never know the difference.

Edited November 9, 2012 by flounder

[ReconRat]

^ what Flounder said. I did not know about the 175 grain. I'll remember that. I've been out of reloading for a while. A good bolt action rifle should do well at 1000 yards. Although a 5" group is impressive. Pretty much a .5moa. The rifle can do it, it's everything else that alters the results. True about cheap scopes. Rarely does a cheap one work well.

I'm going to have to ease up on mil dot resistance. Every one likes them. Even if they are basically tactical scopes. I suppose I'll have to eventually get one and see what it's all about. When they first hit the market back in the 80s, they weren't too exciting. I guess that's changed.