Moto-Brian Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 So, to follow up on part 1 seen here: http://www.ohioriders.net/showthread.php?t=100859We will now get into some meat and potatoes. My true focus will be drive or exit as I feel that entry and exit are most important, but mid turn or even at apex, we have some things going on that are visible that riders are not truly in tune with at a comfortable level.Mid turn is important as there are several things that can upset the chassis, ruin the entire turn and can cause some serious issue in setting up for the drive.We've got set up for the turn in at entry. You've had your braking done and you got your body position set as you turn in. Now, your knee is on the ground and you are transitioning from braking and throttle off to applying throttle or neutral throttle and going through the turn at apex.Body position is important and obviously, you don't want to be moving around and adjusting your body on the bike. Understand at this point, throttle input is critical to success and to failure. Same with brakes. Advanced riders can and will trail brakes until apex at times in an effort to cheat the time sheets and gain that "little extra". For general speak, you really should have zero braking input at this point. Why? Even a feather touch can load the front ever so slightly. That ever so slight input or load can tuck the front as quick as Madcat gets excited at seeing a man.Also, if you are on/off throttle trying to adjust to the speed - slow it down, were too slow and throttle up, etc - you swap the load back or front. Back? Highside possible. Front? tuck. Back loading is when you throttle up. You transfer the weight to the back of the bike. Front loading is like adding brake and can load the front with a tire patch of what? An inch? Not much.This idea translates a lot to the street. Guys have these videos posted all over the world wide web and always feel like they hit a slick spot, stones, lost grip, etc.Yes, you can say lost grip as a cause, but it really isn't. You had grip. You just got greedy and asked for more than you had. But, how did it happen? Typically, they either touched the brake lever or rolled off the throttle while at lean.See, you can barely touch the throttle or gently roll off, but typically, it is from a panic issue. Not severe enough to be "OH SHIT!!", but enough to react and at times, they touch that lever as they feel they are in too hot for what they can handle. That light touch tends to not get registered in their brains and they just never buy that it was them that caused the issue.How many guys do you hear that crashed, blame it on cold tires? If it were cold tires solely and not rider input, why didn't every single guy with cold tires crash? It is rider input. We can go out when it is 40 degrees at Mid-Ohio for example and run 40s. Race compound tires that lose heat and lose grip, but as a rider, you adjust and work the bike to adapt to the conditions. But, there is a seemingly crazy notion that the track is slippery and dangerous when cold. Yes, it is different than most tracks, but if it was 40 degrees at Jennings, it would be slick. If you as a rider do not understand and adjust, you will crash just as easily at Jennings as you would at Mid-Ohio. Now, maybe the track can heighten errors or poor input choices and Jennings allows those to be masked a bit more. Meaning, you can get away with poor choices more at Jennings than at Mid-Ohio, but at the end of the day, it's rider input.So, throttle and brakes are important to talk about. But, we need to manage throttle or we are slowing down and not going forward, right? GENTLE inputs to throttle mid turn are required. We don't have the electronic package that a MotoGP rider has. Watching those guys mid turn or at apex, you can literally see them twist wide open at apex. Do that on your bike and you will be topic of discussion and have some cool pics posted on the Crash Page. Highside will be your new nickname.But, we need to start the steps to driving out. You need to manage the throttle. Neutral throttle is oftentimes used. That means you maintain the throttle position after settled in to the turn. It is the timeline between entry and even some trail braking and throttle open under drive. There should be almost off the throttle to open throttle. That time between is neutral throttle.It can be so quick it feels like on/off. But, it can also be a maintain the input of throttle to where you actually are opening the throttle slightly, but maintaining it until drive out. Make sense??? I know what I want to say, but not sure I can convey in words...But, the idea overall in this step is throttle and brake input. What do you do? What do you struggle with? Body position is important here also. We need to be at our fullest off the bike position as we are comfortable with. If you are sitting up, body up on center of the bike, you are loading the bike in a way that will tax grip. You also may need to adjust the body depending on the situation. Typically, body movement is occurring if the track is rough, if there is some grip issues under load when driving out, etc. But, mid turn should be solid, smooth and exact. Precise is the key. Intentional focus on mid turn is something we don't want. Remember, all of this needs to be worked on so that you ARE NOT focused on doing it. Think about this. If you get into the turn and are focused on weighting pegs and throttle, body, etc., you are lowering focus and maybe lowering focus on eyes, head, wrists, etc. Things where you do it naturally, it becomes easier and more fluid.The body is important as we do things that can be counter productive with the bike. But, we need to work on things to allow the bike TO DO things we need it to. Weighting the outside pegs is something people talk about. Leaned over left, we push down on the right peg. We are pulling on the bars to initiate the turn in at entry, we are pushing with the balls of our feet on both pegs when driving out. We are inputting things to the bike that are needed for it to complete it's job. Otherwise, the bike is a moving gyroscope and wants to sit up and run straight. We need to do things to maintain manners and complete the turn. We are basically influencing the bike and what it does.Where is your body, what are you doing mid turn? Basically, mid turn is important because of the inputs we give. Good and bad. What caused that last crash you had at apex? Why did you get turned in at entry all fine and dandy only to tuck the front going into apex? What did you do to cause that? No stones on the track, guys... Cold tires? Guys that went around you had the same cold tires and they didn't crash. What gives? What happened? What did you do to influence the crash?What are the hurdles you have to get into apex quick and ready to drive out? What is the hardest thing for you to accomplish at this stage?Discuss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 I believe that I'm at a point where I'm comfortable with most aspects of cornering (and I'm talking track riding obviously). I think it's the mental aspect of learning how to carry more corner speed and confidence that the bike will stay planted. I find that I tend to brake a little too much entering some times.Now at Mid-O I have a horrible time with the keyhole and I've tried to follow faster guys and talked to people and just cannot get that thing figured out. Again I believe I might be braking too much entering and that's killing everything that follows. But I know the keyhole is not your typical road course corner as it has some unique features.I think there should be a fourth part to these discussions related to how to gain mental ground to build on the basics. We all know that the mind can crush any dreams of being as good as you, Brian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Copeland Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Good write up Brian.I think it's also very important to have your bike setup properly ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Just pin the throttle now, well if you have traction control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted November 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Just pin the throttle now, well if you have traction control.Unless you have MotoGP traction control, that's not advisable. Even with the bikes like what you have and even what systems some of the guys have on the race machines, you can still get greedy and eat a shit burger.The idea I fear the most is that a lot of newer riders buy these bikes with all the electronic stuff included. They then go out and have zero fear. That happens a lot, but pure ability can still come into play or lack of. I didn't have traction control on the RC8R. I'd get up behind guys with the big bikes that had it and they were still doing things that no matter what electronics they had, wouldn't help them get better.Crutches are cool. But, at some point, you need to walk on your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saacattack Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 (edited) good write up!Just reading these posts I've learned a good hunk of information.I think for me(novice) I'm not braking enough and the body position isn't quite right. So carrying speed through the corner has been iffy at times. I know last time I was out at Mid-Ohio I had a couple "oh shit moments" and I knew what I did wrong and was able to briefly save myself from low and high siding. One spot was the keyhole and the other I believe was turn 6, maybe 7(the one that goes left down hill after the back straight).I believe my throttle control isn't really in control then right? because if it was I wouldn't have had those "oh shit moments".Looking forward to more of these posts! Edited November 30, 2012 by Saacattack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 That down hill left hand is off camber so it's very easy to apply too much throttle and kick it sideways for some good ass puckering. Throttle control and getting off the bike will help get through that turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exarch Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 On my smoke break so I haven't had time to read the whole thread yet, but when you say throttling off too much can cause issues, but gradual throttle off will be ok are you talking about like a 5mph difference? Total throttle off? Continuous gradual throttle off(long curve)? Can you touch a little more on this if you don't mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted November 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Mid corner and you are in faster than you are comfortable with. You roll off. Rolling off loads the front as if you applied brakes. Not good.Any throttle application on or off will cause a change in the chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted November 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Just a note - this is somewhat high performance riding and would not suggest you try this while riding. You are not anywhere near the ability level to be thinking about this stuff nor trying it out. You really need an MSF course and then maybe go and THINK about what you are doing and what you can take from these and apply. I think you are too green a rider to be considering these things in whole or part... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Unless you have MotoGP traction control, that's not advisable. Even with the bikes like what you have and even what systems some of the guys have on the race machines, you can still get greedy and eat a shit burger.The idea I fear the most is that a lot of newer riders buy these bikes with all the electronic stuff included. They then go out and have zero fear. That happens a lot, but pure ability can still come into play or lack of. I didn't have traction control on the RC8R. I'd get up behind guys with the big bikes that had it and they were still doing things that no matter what electronics they had, wouldn't help them get better.Crutches are cool. But, at some point, you need to walk on your own.Yeah I still haven't gotten used to having it. I have trouble getting the TC to kick in on purpose. My first street bike was a CBR 1000rr so managing the throttle was a must. It's odd but like a lot of people say my real traction control is my right hand. I still ride like I don't but that's the attitude of a lot of guys on the zx-10r forum. Some of the guys on there will argue that since the bike has a slipper clutch you should takes advantage of it and just down shift from high RPM's without using the clutch at all just mashing on the shifter. Some of the guys over there are mad because their wheelie control doesn't work and they almost looped the bike. It's a result of people not understanding how the system actually works and listening to what the salesman says. Heck the guy I bought my bike from said yeah you can just pin the throttle back and the front wheel will lift it'll kick in and set you down nice and smooth. Well that all depends on how hard you rolled the throttle if you slam it back the bike will be near balance point before the system realizes the front wheel isn't spinning as fast as the rear. But if you roll on properly the front will lift slightly and instead of backing off slightly like you need to on most liter bikes you can hold steady and the bike will ease its self down. Basically its nice to have as a back up but not something to rely on. The ZX-10r is becoming the new squid bike sadly because of its ease of use. Some of the guys that ride need the systems that are on it to ride. My response was more of a sarcastic jab at how people see the traction control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Copeland Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 ^^^^Interesting !I haven't even attempted clutchless downshifting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moto-Brian Posted November 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 ^^^^Interesting !I haven't even attempted clutchless downshifting.Don't. Your shifter dogs and teeth will appreciate it. Forced downshifts are never suggested and they do some BAAAAAD things to a tranny. Guys that think they can do it are fairly ignorant. They can, but at what expense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongDogRacing Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Brian-- probably worth mentioning/introducing the mental aspect of this process. specifically: mentally slowing down the turn by looking "through" it. i should have chimed in during the "entry" thread with the following, but here goes: on entry, i try to take a mental snapshot of what's about to happen. i identify the reference points, the apex, and ensure i know the general direction i'm going. once those things have been placed in my brain, i can then "slow things down" by piecing it together into one smooth action, constantly looking ahead and out to where i want to be.if at any time in mid turn i let my eyes/brain concentrate on anything in the near field, my turn goes to sh!t and i bumble through it.maybe you can put a better spin on my ramble. i thought it was worth mentioning.--justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongDogRacing Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 I haven't even attempted clutchless downshifting.and you rightly shouldn't! motorcycle transmissions are not built that way! the teeth on the gears are not cut to allow such. you'll find yourself back in the pits with a motor full of metal bits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 ^^^^Interesting !I haven't even attempted clutchless downshifting.It can be done I could do it on my cbr but not in a race type setting just lower rpms when coasting to a stop in a similar manner to the clutchless upshift. Just slight pressure. I wouldn't try the way they are saying over there its basically push on the shift lever hard until it pops down. I see no benefit in it like I said its becoming the new squid bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Copeland Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Don't. Your shifter dogs and teeth will appreciate it. Forced downshifts are never suggested and they do some BAAAAAD things to a tranny. Guys that think they can do it are fairly ignorant. They can, but at what expense?Agree !I see no reason to even try this!It's just second nature to blip and downshift ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Agree !I see no reason to even try this!It's just second nature to blip and downshift !Blipping the throttle is what brought it up. It was funny the opinions of the track guys were the same as here blip. The opinions of the guys who claim to be the fastest ever but never been on the track were the guys saying just mash it down. They honestly think blipping slows people down because its wasted movements/time. But they are the same ones that get pissed when they get tickets for riding like morons and equipment violations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candybluzx6 Posted November 30, 2012 Report Share Posted November 30, 2012 Blipping is one thing i need to start doing. Got to used to the slipper on my bike so i allways catch myself pulling the clutch shifting and letting out (no blipping) and it still gets a bit sketchy off the back strait into t6 (or 7?) at mid o. ( i hate that turn it scares the shit out of me ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHill Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 I hate these threads, they make me realize how long it will be till another track day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saacattack Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 I hate these threads, they make me realize how long it will be till another track day.Lol so true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHill Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 So can we look forward to part 3 anytime soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 So can we look forward to part 3 anytime soon? Probably not, I think everyone realized either people know how to turn or they won't listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helmutt Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 Can we please get all 3 segments stickied? Would make it easier to reference back and/or build on later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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