Scruit Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Trained police officers should be able to tell a gunshot from a car backfiring (which is what the family of the driver is suggesting). If you are shooting to kill, you better be f*&king positive.Maybe they can - and they knew it was gunshots. The suggestion is that the officers who opened fire were told via radio that there was a gun. They were told a gun was seen not just heard. Let's assume they had a gun and ditched it somewhere in the chase... That means when the police fired 137 shots, the 2 people in the car were unarmed.We don't judge people by hindsight. We judge people by how a "reasonable person" would have the reacted under the same circumstances and having the same information. The same concept behind charging and armed robber even if he used an unloaded gun.If each individual officer reasonably believed that the occupants of the car were armed then they are forgiven for acting as if they WERE armed even if it turns out they were NOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I foresee a large civil case against Cleveland Police if no GSR evidence is found.Agreed. If no GSR is found, I forsee HUGE problems for the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 wow 137 shots, that's between 11 and 12 per officer...I thought police were supposed to be good shots...They are trained to shoot rapidly until the threat is stopped. 12 rounds can go in 2-3 seconds. You can't stop to re-assess if you have "shot them enough" to result in "imminent incapacitation". The only way to be sure is to shoot until actual incapacitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) Maybe they can - and they knew it was gunshots. The suggestion is that the officers who opened fire were told via radio that there was a gun. They were told a gun was seen not just heard.I think there is a bit more to it than that.They were also told (on the police recording) that is was not a gun, it was a 'red pop can' by an officer that was close enough to see inside the car. The officers were also told to break off the chase before the shooting occured. For the record, I hope they DO find GSR evidence. If not this will get really ugly. There was already a protest in Cleveland http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/cleveland_rally_in_wake_of_pol.html#incart_maj-story-2 Edited December 5, 2012 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 They are trained to shoot rapidly until the threat is stopped. 12 rounds can go in 2-3 seconds. You can't stop to re-assess if you have "shot them enough" to result in "imminent incapacitation". The only way to be sure is to shoot until actual incapacitation.I guess that's reasonable...I try not to give the police too hard of a time since I think most of them do honestly try to do their job the best they can on a daily basis. As with any group, you'll have your bad apples, but I hope/believe they are the exception and not the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I think there is a bit more to it than that.They were also told (on the police recording) that is was not a gun, it was a 'red pop can' by an officer that was close enough to see inside the car. The officers were also told to break off the chase before the shooting occured. For the record, I hope they DO find GSR evidence. If not this will get really ugly. There was already a protest in Cleveland http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/cleveland_rally_in_wake_of_pol.html#incart_maj-story-2How could anyone confuse a gun and a red pop can? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 ...We don't judge people by hindsight. We judge people by how a "reasonable person" would have the reacted under the same circumstances and having the same information...A reasonable person would have pulled over immediately if they had nothing to hide. The car's driver waived his right to be taken peaceably (if able) when he decided to flee. This does not condone the overwhelming actions that ensued even given the information broadcast to officers, IMO. Things certainly could have been handled differently and there's nothing going to change the outcome now.Lessons learned: Pull the fuck over or risk getting shot. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) wow 137 shots, that's between 11 and 12 per officer...I thought police were supposed to be good shots...Actually it's being reported now that one officer fired between 30 and 40 shots, and another emptied a full magazine (17).So that's 47-57 rounds just between those two. The remaining officers averaged significantly fewer shots fired.That's a long time firing for whichever officer pumped off 30+ rounds... I timed myself earlier, clapping my hands 18 times for the first magazine, then givein myself a second or two to reload, and clapped 17 more times for the second mag. I forgot to rack the slide to chamber a bullet after my reload, and my time was still 18 seconds. That's an eternity for continuous fire, and to be honest, I wasn't even accounting for recoil, so I was clapping faster than I believe it would be possible to shoot... Edited December 5, 2012 by redkow97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Do Cleveland Police use dash cams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1crusher Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Not all of them from what I heard in a report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-bus Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Do Cleveland Police use dash cams?Don't quote me, but I think I heard on Triv last night that 15/300 cars have cameras in Cleveland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Do Cleveland Police use dash cams?no. There was a news story on this a few months back. A handful of officers have installed their own, which is allowed, but they are not in all the cars. This has prompted budget approval for all 300+ cars to have dash cams or officer-mounted cams installed over the next few years. There will be an evaluation period to see which is more useful, the dash-mounted cameras, or those mounted on officers' hats or chests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 I think there is a bit more to it than that.They were also told (on the police recording) that is was not a gun, it was a 'red pop can' by an officer that was close enough to see inside the car. The officers were also told to break off the chase before the shooting occured. For the record, I hope they DO find GSR evidence. If not this will get really ugly. There was already a protest in Cleveland http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/12/cleveland_rally_in_wake_of_pol.html#incart_maj-story-2It's hard to tell without being there but when shit hits the fan communication and comprehension go out the window. It's a lot different listening to what's being put out on the radio while crazy stuff is happening as opposed to sitting in an office after the fact sipping coffee. Think about when you first hear a song on the radio you don't know all the words the first time. They may not have heard the officer say it was a red pop can. Also how would you know they didn't have the gun in another hand? Would you bet your life on it? Actually it's being reported now that one officer fired between 30 and 40 shots, and another emptied a full magazine (17).So that's 47-57 rounds just between those two. The remaining officers averaged significantly fewer shots fired.That's a long time firing for whichever officer pumped off 30+ rounds... I timed myself earlier, clapping my hands 18 times for the first magazine, then givein myself a second or two to reload, and clapped 17 more times for the second mag. I forgot to rack the slide to chamber a bullet after my reload, and my time was still 18 seconds. That's an eternity for continuous fire, and to be honest, I wasn't even accounting for recoil, so I was clapping faster than I believe it would be possible to shoot...Clapping is a lot slower than firing a weapon especially while panicked. Think about how many times you can tap your finger on a desk compared to how many times you can clap. There's less movement involved with using a trigger. Most guns lock to the rear after the last shot. You save time by using your thumb on the slide release as opposed to using your hand to rack the slide. That's why training is about repetition. In a high stress situation your body uses muscle memory and you don't think about what your doing you just react. There are a lot of reports where police involved in shootings initially report they fired less than 5 rounds but in reality they reloaded twice. They honestly don't realize they shot that many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerpaw Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 The wild west was not this wild.Something fishy going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeb Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 i have no problem with police using deadly force but 137 bullets is a lot of lead flying just to stop 2 people maybe police need more gun range time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gump Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 It's plausable that if the car was continuing to backfire cops would continue to fire. Interesting story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 i have no problem with police using deadly force but 137 bullets is a lot of lead flying just to stop 2 people maybe police need more gun range time.Yes they do but ammo costs a lot of money and people are always trying to cut police and fire budgets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-bus Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 A show of hands....(figuratively).... who, on this site, has actually heard a vehicle backfire since 1982? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 A show of hands....(figuratively).... who, on this site, has actually heard a vehicle backfire since 1982?It was a late 70s-early 80s chevy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 A show of hands....(figuratively).... who, on this site, has actually heard a vehicle backfire since 1982?My rc51 does it all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gump Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-bus Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Report was a mid-'90s Monte Carlo...fuel injected, I'm sure. I can't jump on the blame-the-cop train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Report was a mid-'90s Monte Carlo...fuel injected, I'm sure. I can't jump on the blame-the-cop train.I had an 02 grandprix gtp that had a little bit of a custom exhaust mod. It would back fire. Especially after I wrecked it and it ripped the exhaust off.Regardless of it it was the car back firing it would be based on what the cops perceived. Also the suspects used their car as a deadly weapon so no need for a gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 It was a 1979 chevy malibu. check the report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-bus Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 It was a 1979 chevy malibu. check the report.Then a backfire is more plausible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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