The death of roadracing on US TV

[TSB67]

DMG told the manufacturers to fuck off and promised to bring their NASCAR magic to the series. Now they're asking the manufacturers to pay to put it on TV.

Don't blame SPEED. I get live fucking supercross in HD more often than not.

What is AMA superbike now anyway? Spec Yamaha vs spec Buell?

[TRMN8TR]

With 5 laps left the winner is still in doubt & lots drivers still have a chance at 1st place.

Exactly the reason I don't care to watch nascar. The first few hours is pointless, and all you need to watch is the last 5 laps.

[redkow97]

Wow. They televise NASCAR truck but not motorcycles? They have shows like pinks all out and pass time where its the exact same show with a few different characters but the don't want to show motorcycle racing? I think the Mayans were right, its the end of the world.

Hopefully another channel picks them up. Theres hope in that right? HDnet would be perfect they already have super bike family. Why not the actual racing?

if you haven't noticed, NASCAR is about crashing, and soap opera bullshit.

Think about what passes for "reality tv" these days. housewives bitching about each other and at each other. That's what the NASCAR drivers do too.

Until the AMA starts running ovals, where the crowd can see every turn (and more importantly, every crash), they won't get live attendance. Until they get soap-opera drama where Yates is jump-kicking lappers in the chest EVERY RACE, they won't get TV ratings.

What's good for racing isn't necessarily good for entertainment.

[redkow97]

DMG told the manufacturers to fuck off and promised to bring their NASCAR magic to the series. Now they're asking the manufacturers to pay to put it on TV.

Don't blame SPEED. I get live fucking supercross in HD more often than not.

What is AMA superbike now anyway? Spec Yamaha vs spec Buell?

The yamaha is dominant because Graves can program a fucking traction control system.

There is no reason that Suzuki, Kawasaki, BMW, and Honda (who are back this year) shouldn't be competitive. The Buell and the KTM made things interesting, but were 'low tech' efforts.

I think completely eliminating traction control would bring the racing back to awesome, but it's really not Hayes's fault that he was great without traction control, and is fucking insane with it.

The race for 2-5 is pretty tight in Superbike. Daytona Sportbike has been great racing for the last 3 years or so. I prefer the AMA over Moto GP or WSBK. I've met some of the riders, and I know more of the tracks. That alone puts things in perspective, and makes it way more interesting for me.

[Moto-Brian]

The yamaha is dominant because Graves can program a fucking traction control system.

There is no reason that Suzuki, Kawasaki, BMW, and Honda (who are back this year) shouldn't be competitive. The Buell and the KTM made things interesting, but were 'low tech' efforts.

I think completely eliminating traction control would bring the racing back to awesome, but it's really not Hayes's fault that he was great without traction control, and is fucking insane with it.

The race for 2-5 is pretty tight in Superbike. Daytona Sportbike has been great racing for the last 3 years or so. I prefer the AMA over Moto GP or WSBK. I've met some of the riders, and I know more of the tracks. That alone puts things in perspective, and makes it way more interesting for me.

Graves dominates because they are allowed more things that get overlooked than the other teams. Look closely at the Graves R1 at the IMS show and look at the stock R1. Tell me it isn't more narrow, has a SUPER modded and braced frame and that the fuel tank isn't modded to hell and back. They have five semi trucks. They don't get what they want? They pull rigs. AMA suffers.

They get to do pretty much what they want.

TC has less to do with it.

[natedogg624]

It's the exact same chassis that Yamaha WSBK uses.

The frame structure is the same as what you'd find on a showroom R1, however it is heavily braced as you stated. Even down to the braced swingarm and tunable cross members on the frame. You can see the same frame and bracing used in our R1 build. It's no secret.

I don't believe Graves is getting overlooked in tech, they just have the money to build and test it the absolute limit of the rules. Just my opinion from what I've heard.

Edited February 13, 2013 by natedogg624

[turnone]

I also miss SpeedVision. Things have gone down hill. We have to face it, Roadracing motorcycles has lost a lot of luster from the hey day of the 90's. I stopped going to Mid-O years ago and stopped watching AMA. WSBK and MotoGP are far more interesting to me and I only have so much time to watch this shit. I also follow F1.

I'm considering canceling cable and this may help my decision.

Biggie

[Moto-Brian]

It's the exact same chassis that Yamaha WSBK uses.

The frame structure is the same as what you'd find on a showroom R1, however it is heavily braced as you stated. Even down to the braced swingarm and tunable cross members on the frame. You can see the same frame and bracing used in our R1 build. It's no secret.

I don't believe Graves is getting overlooked in tech, they just have the money to build and test it the absolute limit of the rules. Just my opinion from what I've heard.

Whatever you need to tell yourself. That frame and tank and the mods done to it aren't allowed to be done to the other team frames. The bracing and support and the fact the tank is nowhere near stock width indicates modding that goes beyond allowance.

I have a friend that came from Graves. You're right. It's no secret.

[ohiomike]

I lost speed channel when we went to DirecTV. Dish had some great sports programming, better that Direct.

[tyler524]

If it is not him, do you thing the police would come out and admit they burnt the cabin with someone else inside?

[Mary#17]

DirecTV has speed, just depends on the package you select. We signed with DirecTV like 20 years ago because they carried Speed and our cable provider didn't.

Mary

[Mary#17]

I also miss SpeedVision. Things have gone down hill. We have to face it, Roadracing motorcycles has lost a lot of luster from the hey day of the 90's. I stopped going to Mid-O years ago and stopped watching AMA. WSBK and MotoGP are far more interesting to me and I only have so much time to watch this shit. I also follow F1.

Biggie

Agree. Feel the same way. We pretty much watch Supercross, F1, WSBK and MotoGP. The AMA is not what it was. I miss the Duhamel, Gobert and Jamie James days. Good times.

[FZRMatt]

I was just on Speed TV's website and it has new episodes of AMA Super/Sportbike, Motocross, World Superbike, and Moto GP (all flavors) listed as current programing. Granted, some of it is Speed HD (which I don't have), but it is out there.

[cOoTeR]

If it is not him, do you thing the police would come out and admit they burnt the cabin with someone else inside?

But then the chickens would attack the cows and rule the barnyard. ^^^^ also has nothing to do with this thread. You posted in the wrong one.

[Tpoppa]

Exactly the reason I don't care to watch nascar. The first few hours is pointless, and all you need to watch is the last 5 laps.

You could make the same arguement about NBA basketball. Which also generates alot of $$

[redkow97]

You could make the same arguement about NBA basketball. Which also generates alot of $$

I would like to see a breakdown of where they actually make their money though.

merchandising is not an insignificant stream of revenue.

And in terms of entertainment, the teams who dunk a lot probably get higher TV ratings than teams who shoot 91% from the free throw line and have a better record.

again, entertainment sells; not necessarily good competition.

[RidersDiscount]

Whatever you need to tell yourself. That frame and tank and the mods done to it aren't allowed to be done to the other team frames. The bracing and support and the fact the tank is nowhere near stock width indicates modding that goes beyond allowance.

I have a friend that came from Graves. You're right. It's no secret.

Those mods are allowed to any bike in American Superbike.

The following are excerpts from the AMA Pro Road Racing rule book:

4.6 Frame

a. Frame and Sub Frame

i. The main frame must remain as originally produced by the

manufacturer for use on the homologated motorcycle with the

following noted exceptions:

1. Strengthening gussets and tubes may be added, but none

may be removed.

2. Accessory brackets (radiator, shock reservoir, stands, etc.)

may be changed, relocated, added or removed. Holes may

be drilled only for the purpose of attaching brackets or other

components.

3. The homologated dimensions and the position of the

steering head, engine, swingarm pivot point, rear shock,

and suspension linkage mounting points must remain

as homologated on the original machine. No alternative

mounting points may be created.

4. The use of offset bearing races for the purpose of altering

the steering angle is allowed as long as the steering stem

remains within the confines of the stock steering head

and no part of the insert protrudes axially more than 3mm

beyond the original steering head.

5. If the homologated frame has provisions for swingarm

pivot adjustment blocks then the pivot may be adjusted

within that range. If the homologated frame comes with the

swingarm pivot in a fixed position then the swingarm must

be run in that position.

6. Front sub frame may be modified or replaced, but the

material must remain as homologated and replacements

must appear on the Eligible Equipment List.

7. Rear sub frame may be modified or replaced, but the

material must remain as homologated and replacements

must appear on the Eligible Equipment List

4.9 Airbox/Intakes/Fuel Supply

b. Fuel Tanks

i. Fuel tank may be modified or replaced provided that it

maintains the stock appearance and is of sufficient capacity

to complete a 50-mile race. Any stock tanks that are not of

sufficient capacity will be allowed to be modified or replaced

per special allowances. Non-metallic fuel tanks are not allowed

unless when standard equipment on the homologated machine

or approved by AMA Pro Racing. Non-metallic fuel tanks are not

allowed to be modified. Frames that are utilized as fuel cells

may be modified for increased capacity but must conform

to all applicable frame rules.

Here is a pic of the frame mods

and here is a pic of the tank that they ran in 2010

Edited February 13, 2013 by RidersDiscount

[Tpoppa]

again, entertainment sells; not necessarily good competition.

It's a combination of competition and great marketing. The NBA does a great job of marketing player's personalities, much more so than the NFL or MLB.

[Moto-Brian]

Those mods are allowed to any bike in American Superbike.

The following are excerpts from the AMA Pro Road Racing rule book:

4.6 Frame

a. Frame and Sub Frame

i. The main frame must remain as originally produced by the

manufacturer for use on the homologated motorcycle with the

following noted exceptions:

1. Strengthening gussets and tubes may be added, but none

may be removed.

2. Accessory brackets (radiator, shock reservoir, stands, etc.)

may be changed, relocated, added or removed. Holes may

be drilled only for the purpose of attaching brackets or other

components.

3. The homologated dimensions and the position of the

steering head, engine, swingarm pivot point, rear shock,

and suspension linkage mounting points must remain

as homologated on the original machine. No alternative

mounting points may be created.

4. The use of offset bearing races for the purpose of altering

the steering angle is allowed as long as the steering stem

remains within the confines of the stock steering head

and no part of the insert protrudes axially more than 3mm

beyond the original steering head.

5. If the homologated frame has provisions for swingarm

pivot adjustment blocks then the pivot may be adjusted

within that range. If the homologated frame comes with the

swingarm pivot in a fixed position then the swingarm must

be run in that position.

6. Front sub frame may be modified or replaced, but the

material must remain as homologated and replacements

must appear on the Eligible Equipment List.

7. Rear sub frame may be modified or replaced, but the

material must remain as homologated and replacements

must appear on the Eligible Equipment List

4.9 Airbox/Intakes/Fuel Supply

b. Fuel Tanks

i. Fuel tank may be modified or replaced provided that it

maintains the stock appearance and is of sufficient capacity

to complete a 50-mile race. Any stock tanks that are not of

sufficient capacity will be allowed to be modified or replaced

per special allowances. Non-metallic fuel tanks are not allowed

unless when standard equipment on the homologated machine

or approved by AMA Pro Racing. Non-metallic fuel tanks are not

allowed to be modified. Frames that are utilized as fuel cells

may be modified for increased capacity but must conform

to all applicable frame rules.

Here is a pic of the frame mods

and here is a pic of the tank that they ran in 2010

Uh, yeah. Like I said... That tank isn't even close and they don't run that style anymore. Also, their frame is a lot different than what you are showing... Anyways, I am not going to argue. You win... They are 100% same as what you guys have there and did.

[redkow97]

"maintains the stock appearance" is a subjective standard.

It's a poorly written rule if the intention is to actually force the use of the stock tank. If the Graves crew is breaking the rules, someone should protest them. Or pull a Pegram and but a bike from them.

[RidersDiscount]

Uh, yeah. Like I said... That tank isn't even close and they don't run that style anymore. Also, their frame is a lot different than what you are showing... Anyways, I am not going to argue. You win... They are 100% same as what you guys have there and did.

Are you saying they removed bracing and material from their frame? If you read the rule book, any team can add as much bracing or material as they want.

Was the person that told you Graves was cheating the same person that told you Cardenas was bringing money to the M4 team?

[Moto-Brian]

Are you saying they removed bracing and material from their frame? If you read the rule book, any team can add as much bracing or material as they want.

Was the person that told you Graves was cheating the same person that told you Cardenas was bringing money to the M4 team?

First of all, Nate - here's the drill... You can be a nut swinger and believe what everyone wants to believe when JU speaks. OR, you can understand when I tell you that what I stated was in fact from not only two team owners, but also a friend of Cardenas' and just after the Chicago IMS show, another racer that actually brought up the Elena Myers situation and stated it was due to not being able to bring money as it was out.

You want to sling shit after hearsay and what a bunch of people jump on and say that have zero clue? Good for you. You wanna also doubt what I am saying? That's cool too. The Graves guy is legit and I know some things that aren't known or maybe were but people don't talk about. HE (not me) also mentioned Cardenas brought bucks to Yosh as well. So, it isn't just me and it is well known around the pits. So knock the third grade bullshit off.

You are now part of a legit race company and all of a sudden have an abundance of info in your cap of knowledge. Great on you, man. That tank isn't what they are using. I will try and get a measurement at Indy and see what it is vs stock. Oh, and find out when the rules were changed and let me know... As for removing, there is more than adding bracing to that frame.

Argue what you want. Make jabs from some BS back and forth between me and JU and get on the same band wagon as the other Good Ol Boys on the WERA forum. Or, you can actually talk to a few people and maybe learn some things for yourself. Whatever you decide. Just watch the tone, bud.

[RidersDiscount]

You want to sling shit after hearsay and what a bunch of people jump on and say that have zero clue?

Oh, and find out when the rules were changed and let me know... As for removing, there is more than adding bracing to that frame.

Just watch the tone, bud.

Hey Brian this is TJ and not Nate. I appreciate where you are coming from, and like a good spirited conversation. That said if you want to criticize me for slinging shit you may want to consider your comments about Graves and Nate first.

Here is a link to the 2009 rule book. Section 2.9 covers the frame (same wording as the 2013 rule book) and the tank is covered in section 2.12 - b. (same wording as the 2013 rule book). As we both know Mladin won the championship in 2009.

www.amaproracing.com/assets/RR_Rules_2009.pdf

Graves builds their bikes to the absolute limit of the rules, which is exactly what they and every other team should be doing. I had a very close look at the Graves bikes and did not see a single thing that crossed the line. If you have proof of their cheating please put up the evidence and I will congratulate you for doing so. I hope you can understand my skepticism until I see the proof.

Sorry about the Cardenas comment, that was probably a bit low.

[Moto-Brian]

Hey Brian this is TJ and not Nate. I appreciate where you are coming from, and like a good spirited conversation. That said if you want to criticize me for slinging shit you may want to consider your comments about Graves and Nate first.

Here is a link to the 2009 rule book. Section 2.9 covers the frame (same wording as the 2013 rule book) and the tank is covered in section 2.12 - b. (same wording as the 2013 rule book). As we both know Mladin won the championship in 2009.

www.amaproracing.com/assets/RR_Rules_2009.pdf

Graves builds their bikes to the absolute limit of the rules, which is exactly what they and every other team should be doing. I had a very close look at the Graves bikes and did not see a single thing that crossed the line. If you have proof of their cheating please put up the evidence and I will congratulate you for doing so. I hope you can understand my skepticism until I see the proof.

Sorry about the Cardenas comment, that was probably a bit low.

Please send apologies to Nate as you guys are not shown with sigs to understand who is chiming in. As to your slinging shit comment, you or Nate made the Cardenas comment and that was slinging shit. I am simply making comments about Graves and the bikes. If other teams don't like what they are doing and maybe don't do what they are doing in an effort to stay within the actual rules, that's what I am talking about. I didn't say one single word towards you, RD or Nate until the out of the side of his mouth response about Cardenas. And no, it isn't a low blow as I know what I know and until you talk to the same people I have, you can only assume like everyone else.

As for the rulebook, thanks for the timeline. I wasn't sure and wanted to know when the frame rules changed.

The idea is that the rulebook is vague and as Red even mentioned, it is something that is left to a judgement call. I too have seen the Graves up close and very personal. I am also not going to share what I was told by the guy I talked to. But, he was at Graves and did work on the racebikes. So, I have no doubt what he is saying is true. And, if you honestly think everyone plays by the rules, you are being naive. I was told about some things and I haven't said boo as to exacts and it isn't my place. I've seen cheating at all levels and even raced against cheaters that had illegal rods hanging out of their motors after the engine blew. It's part of racing, man.

But, the rules allow gussets. Gussets are triangular pieces welded to allow strengthening of the joints. Tell me how the allowance of plates welded as such as shown in your example vs. the stock frame are gussets and not thicker plate material welded in to strengthen the frame? I know a gusset strengthens as well, but in my mind, what Graves is allowed on the R1 isn't bracing per say, but rather plates that are welded into the frame and it appears the frame plating was removed and replaced with thicker material.

What I saw was something where they had made some serious bracing and have a completely modified tank. The bike itself is more narrow than the stock bike. The plastics are even more narrow as well as the tank skin they are using. The overall profile from the front is more narrow than the OEM bike which is MUCH larger. I want to measure the width from the top of the frame left to right. It appears to be more narrow which would mean something totally else.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match over this deal. I am not saying anything towards RD.

It's easy to deny and say "show me proof", but it is also the same on my end. I have a guy that worked for the guy. WORKED for him. Telling me the things they did and what he knows. We racers all talk and we talk about the dark stuff. Why would I sit and give exacts when it isn't my place nor do I give a shit. But, to know that maybe Graves has used his presence in the paddock as a threat if he isn't allowed to stretch the rules vs. others isn't fair. And, if what the team guys I have heard this from and heard what they feel, why would they make that up? Sure, if they are winning, it is easy to blame the winnings on cheating. But you and I both know that the amount of modding needed to make that bike competitive can be seen clearly and that is something alone that is BS. I see EBR, KTM and others and what they are doing and they aren't having to totally redesign the frame to win or keep up. Sure, they aren't beating Josh and Graves, but they did pretty good on machines that are a lot closer to OEM than that Grave R1 is...

[RidersDiscount]

As for the rulebook, thanks for the timeline. I wasn't sure and wanted to know when the frame rules changed.

The idea is that the rulebook is vague and as Red even mentioned, it is something that is left to a judgement call. I too have seen the Graves up close and very personal. I am also not going to share what I was told by the guy I talked to. But, he was at Graves and did work on the racebikes. So, I have no doubt what he is saying is true. And, if you honestly think everyone plays by the rules, you are being naive. I was told about some things and I haven't said boo as to exacts and it isn't my place. I've seen cheating at all levels and even raced against cheaters that had illegal rods hanging out of their motors after the engine blew. It's part of racing, man.

But, the rules allow gussets. Gussets are triangular pieces welded to allow strengthening of the joints. Tell me how the allowance of plates welded as such as shown in your example vs. the stock frame are gussets and not thicker plate material welded in to strengthen the frame? I know a gusset strengthens as well, but in my mind, what Graves is allowed on the R1 isn't bracing per say, but rather plates that are welded into the frame and it appears the frame plating was removed and replaced with thicker material.

What I saw was something where they had made some serious bracing and have a completely modified tank. The bike itself is more narrow than the stock bike. The plastics are even more narrow as well as the tank skin they are using. The overall profile from the front is more narrow than the OEM bike which is MUCH larger. I want to measure the width from the top of the frame left to right. It appears to be more narrow which would mean something totally else.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match over this deal. I am not saying anything towards RD.

It's easy to deny and say "show me proof", but it is also the same on my end. I have a guy that worked for the guy. WORKED for him. Telling me the things they did and what he knows. We racers all talk and we talk about the dark stuff. Why would I sit and give exacts when it isn't my place nor do I give a shit. But, to know that maybe Graves has used his presence in the paddock as a threat if he isn't allowed to stretch the rules vs. others isn't fair. And, if what the team guys I have heard this from and heard what they feel, why would they make that up? Sure, if they are winning, it is easy to blame the winnings on cheating. But you and I both know that the amount of modding needed to make that bike competitive can be seen clearly and that is something alone that is BS. I see EBR, KTM and others and what they are doing and they aren't having to totally redesign the frame to win or keep up. Sure, they aren't beating Josh and Graves, but they did pretty good on machines that are a lot closer to OEM than that Grave R1 is...

I 100% agree that the modding it takes to make the R1 competitive is extreme, however the rule book does allow it. The rule book is vague, however any other team (including RD) can modify a frame in the same fashion and be within the rules. We've been very forthcoming with what we did, and if anyone thought it was questionable I am sure that AMA would have given us a call.

It is a superbike class so I personally I don't mind the mods and actually wish you could do more. All that said I believe that if you put Josh on the KTM, EBR, Suzuki, or Honda he would win superbike races. The guy is a stud and Yamaha are extremely smart for keeping him on the bike.

I'll be at Indy this weekend as well. If you want to meet up and look over Josh's bike, let's do so. I can walk you though what we did to ours, and maybe you can point out what you think is questionable on your end.