You are probably right, I can't agree or disagree, since you've been there and I have not (as you have so clearly pointed out.) I don't think that is the point of most of the crap in this thread, at's more about the stereotyping, and the people that you are speaking of (Harley riders that are afraid to ride, making things dangerous for others) don't help. In fact, I saw a post on Facebook from a "Biker group" member that didn't help the cause, by looking for a band that will play music that "bikers would like" and I'm thinking that I know bikers that listen to country, some that like classic rock, some that are into heavy metal. So, the bikers don't do anything to help the image, from within the groups. Overall, I'm more disappointed that Serpent can't take any humor out of, and and agree to disagree on some things. Life's too short to be so uptight about things.