I know I'm getting to this threat a few months late but I think I've got a valid point here. I don't ride with groups, in fact I'm a pretty anti-social rider all the way around and it's due in large part to stuff like what I've read on this thread from the OP right through to the end. <b>#1.1 If you are being a dumbass and you crash me, someone I care about, or a friend of mine, Your bike and your crash injury's will fail in comparison to what I do to you.Stuff like that is what makes me want to stay the hell away from most all of you people because crashing my bike and taking out a few other riders is exactly what I plan every time I go out riding. They're called "accidents" for a reason. I understand being pissed if someone's jackassery causes the accident but really if the guy who caused the crash is bleeding out on the side of the road are you going to come over and put the boots to him? And let's not forget everyone's good friend Murphy, cause he likes to mess with things just for the fun of it. Are you going to take out your anger on whoever you think is most deserving? If so then not only would I get to worry about having an entire pack of riders up my ass, because i'd be in the front according to flounder's rules, I'd also get to think about what'll happen if I screw the pooch and eat some pavement, then I get to wonder if someone's goning to curb stomp me because they think it's my fault. Yep, that sounds like fun to me, where do I sign up? That being said, there are some things I sgree with like group rides shouldn't be about who can go the fastest or ride the closest to "out of control." But hey, what do I know, it's just my opinion.