cOoTeR

You can spin it however you want. The facts remain that It was ruled a homicide, and the officers caused his death.

Ruled a homicide by who? You? There was no indictment for the officers so it wasn't ruled a homicide.

I'm not the one twisting anything you are. It's a fact Garner was able to talk the entire time proving he could breath and was not being choked. Are you really trying to say that it is possible to talk when you can't breath.

NOT according to the autopsy: and I quote

"The medical examiner said compression of the neck and chest, along with Garner's positioning on the ground while being restrained by police during the July 17 stop on Staten Island, CAUSED HIS DEATH.

Garner's acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were CONTRIBUTING FACTORS, the medical examiner determined."

Did you do an autopsy? Are you a medical examiner?

You are ignoring 3/4 of your own quote.

"The medical examiner said compression of the neck

(Notice it does not say throat or trachea) and chest, along with Garner's positioning on the ground while being restrained by police (He was positioned on the ground because that is the position people are placed in when police are trying to control them during an arrest. By resisting Garner caused the cops to have to place him in said position in order to gain control of him. It's his fault he was placed in that position.) during the July 17 stop on Staten Island, CAUSED HIS DEATH.

>>>Garner's acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were CONTRIBUTING FACTORS,<<<< (Look here. Had he died from being choked to death these would not have contributed. A healthy person would have survived the same situation as long as they didn't have these health issues that contributed to his death. ) the medical examiner determined."

choked chok·ing

transitive verb

1 :to check or block normal breathing of by compressing or obstructing the trachea or by poisoning or adulterating available air

2 a :to check or hinder the growth, development, or activity of <the flowers were choked by the weeds>

b :to obstruct by filling up or clogging <leaves choked the drain>

c :to fill completely :jam <roads choked with traffic>

Had he died from being choked he would have died while being choked. Not minutes later after the cops had him in handcuffs and we're no longer touching him. He would not have been able to breath and talk the entire time. Had he died from cooking the medical examiner would have stated something along the lines of strangulation or asphyxiation. Yet neither strangulation or asphyxiation were listed as contributing factors.

What did the grand jury decide on this car?

Not only arrested, but obviously if you protest your case to the officers, you deserve to be choked to death for it.

He was not choked to death as the autopsy showed it was heart failure. That has no relation to being choked bit it does come as a result of physical exertion while in poor health. Garner chose to resist and physically exert himself beyond what his body could handle. He brought on his own death. Also when being choked to the point of asphyxiation like you are alleging happened you cannot talk or breath. Garner was talking and saying he couldn't breath which contradicts his statement that he couldn't breath and proves he wasn't choked to death.

When they are selling illegal items. Cigs are not illegal. If it was marijuana or handguns to kids, that would be legit reason to arrest him. The only victim in this so called crime was the government.

Have you ever seen the Native Americans set tire fires on 90 outside of buffalo when ever the state brings up taxing smokes bought on the reservations? Most likely not because the news media keeps it hush hush.

Do you really think the government cares if people quit smoking? No because its a ton of tax revenue. Do you think tobacco will ever be illegal? No because its a ton of tax revenue? Why do you think the government wants to tax eliquid which is no tobacco? Because they are losing billions in tobacco taxes. And before you give me a smart ass remark about the nicotine being extracted from tobacco to make the ejuice.... Do you pay alcohol tax on nyquill? No you don't.

And what is the difference if I take a box of my own rolled cigs with me to a bar and someone offers me some cash for a few of them? I'm cheating the government do I deserve to be arrested by a Bath or Richfield or Akron cop? I dunno but when I was younger and the CIG vending machines started to disappear I'd take 2 packs worth of my own rolled smokes with me and it is pretty easy to sell a CIG to an ex smoker for $1.

Oh then how about when I quit drinking buy still went to the bars with friends and after the kitchen would close at midnight or if the bar didn't have a kitchen and I would take taco bell orders and make a couple bucks from drunks who would tell me to keep the change. Does that deserve me to be arrested?

So you wouldn't say the shop owner that called the cops wasn't a victim? People were buying the illegal cigarettes from Gamer instead of the store he's losing money. Laws are laws whether you ashe worth them or not. If he was out there selling moonshine it'd be the same. Loitering is also a crime that he was committing. Most places you need a permit to sell things on the street sick as a vendors license. All that then being uncooperative would lead to an arrest for pretty much anyone. If he was right and felt he was in the right he should have complied then fought it in court or worth a law suit. There are plenty of lawyers looking to make a name for them self by winning a law suit against law enforcement that would take the case for free and a cut off any money awarded. But instead he chose to resist and fight resulting in him dying due to his poor health.

The fact still stands. Local pigs are not responsible for tax enforcement.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Office_of_Tax_Enforcement

But police are called when local punks are loitering in front of stores selling things illegally.

http://nationalreport.net/kurt-sutter-negotiating-sequel-sons-anarchy/

An interesting article if true. Not to sue of the legitimacy of the source.

Was it to prevent his son from being tempted to follow his dad's footsteps?

This he was eliminating anything that could glorify being in the club. He wanted his sons to see the club add the worst thing ever.

http://conservativetribune.com/new-documents-michael-brown/

"The most important finding, however, came after medical examiners conducted a detailed analysis of Brown’s hands.

They found a “strong likelihood of the presence of soot” which indicates that the man’s hands were extremely close to a firearm when it was fired.

That fact matches Wilson’s account. He testified that there was a struggle over his handgun and that Brown was trying to take control of the gun when the first shot went off.

There’s even more evidence that backs up Wilson’s version of events.

Investigators found Brown’s blood on his own hands, and also on the inside of the police vehicle’s door.

This would be next to impossible unless Brown had purposely reached inside the police car and assaulted the officer, just as Wilson described."

Somewhat back on topic. I saw this video and found it interesting. Im not to sure of the authenticity of the person that is supposedly micheal brown being him because this is the internet and all. But if it is him it shows what a sweet innocent caring member of society he was.Michael Brown Criminally Assaults and Robs an Old…: http://youtu.be/Sn2eDyaq3mQ

The 2011+ zx10r has the turn signal mirrors stock. Not sure if you can make those fit some how.

You need to step back a second and reconsider. Consider that one of the DOJ's bigger issues with the CPD is they do not follow protocol and procedures and that often leads to the use of excessive or deadly force that otherwise would not have been needed. Now consider that the cops rolled up on that kid and the driver stopped in a place that left his partner getting out of the car about 3 feet from someone they thought had a gun. So yea, the cop getting out of the car had no real choice, he had to shoot and he had to shoot quickly.

But that was in large part because the driver screwed up bad. Protocol says park a distance away, use the car as cover and demand the perp show his hands.....

So, I think you need to change the above to say you support the actions of the shooter, but the other cop screwed up badly and is in large part responsible for the outcome...probably to the point of voluntary manslaughter.

So you are assuming that the cops knew his exact location when they pulled up? Also when they stopped the kid was on the other side of the gazebo/shelter house and approached them. The fact remains the kid started all of the situation and his actions lead to his death. You keep saying how bad Cleveland Police are, what have they done to you? I've been to Cleveland a lot and have never had a problem with the police. I'm guessing the biggest part of that is I don't break the freaking law. The solution is simple don't break the law and you won't have to worry about how mean the police are. If more people obeyed the law there would be less of a need for the police=less police to worry about. But we live in a world where people can't refrain from screwing with other people.

You peeps defending the Cleveland Police amaze me. A year ago the Ohio Attorney general investigated them and said they were all fucked up. A week ago the US Attorney General said they were REALLY fucked up. Heres a hint, the Cleveland Police are not like most other police departments. They are FUCKED UP. They have a pattern of using excessive force. Pistol whipping people in handcuffs. Tasing non-violent handicapped people until they are dead. They have a pattern of handling situations very badly which leads to them having to use deadly force when they should not have had to. Like this 12 year old situation, they rolled up 2 feet away from him giving the passenger cop no choice but to shoot inside of 1.5 seconds. It is a perfect example of where THEY didn't follow proper procedure which escalated the situation leading to the need to use deadly force.

Cops make mistakes, we have to accept that. But when there is a long term pattern of mistakes that lead to death you have to accept they are fucked up. I get that the police, nationally, are getting way more heat than they deserve but Cleveland is an exception. They are getting far less heat than they deserve.

If you don't hold those two cops responsible for their mistake when they rolled up, and the dispatcher for not giving the cops all the info then you are just like the Cleveland Police. Fucked up.

So the Ohio attorney general and the Federal Attorney General both say the Cleveland PD is "fucked up"? What have they done to fix the issues? What law suites have been filed against them to weed out the problem causers? If they are as evil as you say why isnt anything being done about it? Or is it just more stuff being trumped up by the media leaving out details to sway an opinion?

At what point did this child "pull a gun" on police? Never, that's when.

They didn't see anything resembling a gun until after he was dead

Wasn't It reported that when he was shot the gun landed beside him? Leads me to believe it was being removed from his waistband. It was reported that the kid had a gun in his waistband. Possibly visible maybe not but regardless the cops are going to react as if there is a gun where it was reported to be. Reaching towards that area especially while being told to do something else shows intent. The three factors used to determine if a use of deadly force self defense is justifiable are Means opportunity and intent. Means, the cops received information he had a gun so it is reasonable for the cops to believe he had the means to cause death. Opportunity, the cops were within firing range. Intent not putting his hands up and possibly moving his hands towards a go shows intent to not comply and possibly use the firearm. Waiting until the weapon is drawn could cost the cops their life.

Not "fucking cops" THESE SHITTY FUCKING COPS IN PARTICULAR. There are plenty of competent and compassionate police officers who do their job correctly without murdering children.

I'm sure you can do a better job with how awesome your armchair quarterbacking skills are. Why don't you become a cop make the world a better place.

So 12 is "old enough to know better" in your opinion. How about if he were 10? 8? 5? Clearly there has to be a line. At what age does playing with a toy, even "irresponsibly" not cost you your life at the hands of those who are supposed to protect you?

In a life or death situation the police have to factor in the threat to their life first. 12 years old is a considered a young adult. Old enough to be tried for murder. Old enough to kill someone. The cops don't have time to get an exact age when they arrive. The person's size is the factor they are going off of more than age. A person's of a younger ashe can still be a threat when equipped with a gun. That's the factor to go on. The cops had no way of knowing the gun was fake until it gets into their hands. They had reason to believe it was real and have to side with caution when approaching a person with a gun. They are going to believe it's real until they see otherwise regardless of whose holding it. You can't put it out that a person can't defend themselves from a person with a gun if they are under a certain age.

Cooter: I AM aware that a car door isn't bullet-proof, unless you're Bruce Willis…. ….although I'm pretty sure that a wooden dining table will stop military rounds from an automatic assault rifle.

On the other hand, I wouldn't have wanted to be the poor cop sitting in the passenger seat--probably belted in--watching out the side window as the reported gun-wielding suspect started to move toward him. I'll take a 25-40 foot separation with time to unbuckle and assume a shielded crouching position over that anytime.

I agree it's a shitty position to be in but I dont think that the cops intentionally pulled right up to the kid. Why would they do that on purpose? It seems more logical that they were rising in and looked over and saw him in a shit he's right there moment.

Also, why does the 12 year old child pay for his mistake with the rest of his life when the cops mistake isn't costing him a damn thing?

Itchy trigger finger cop should have to pay for his mistake. I doubt he ever will, but at absolute bare minimum he should lose his job and pay a hefty, hefty wrongful death settlement.

The trigger happy cop as you call him wouldn't have made a mistake as you see it if the kid did not lead people to believe he had a gun, caused enough concern to have someone call the cops, approached the cops when they arrived and disobeyed what the cops told him to do. The cop is obligated to respond and protect themselves. The kid chose his own fate simple as that. If I acted the same way I would expect to be shot also. Don't give me that crap that 12 isn't old enough to know better because of you don't know not to screw around with people holding guns at age 12 you probably can't function on your own.

No I'm saying the cops might try to figure out what is going on before killing a child. And I know the officer acted prejudicially because he shot and killed a child within 2 seconds of arriving on scene.

The officers never saw this child pointing anything at anybody, which is why the orange tip detail means exactly dick, they never saw the tip, it could have been a fucking fleshlight in his waist band for as much as they saw of it before executing him.

The cops were told the guy had a gun and he was pointing it at people. They don't need to see him doing it to reasonably believe he had a gun and was using it in an aggressive manner. It doesn't take 2 seconds to put your hands up and comply. It also doesn't take 2 seconds to draw a weapon and fire multiple rounds. Watching the video you can also see that the kid immediately starts heading towards the cop car at what appears to be a rapid speed. Which in anyone else's eyes especially the cops could be seen as an aggressive action. Your opinion is only that an opinion. The kid created the circumstances that lead to his death, not the cops. A couple things we do know from the video are the kid approached the cops and he didn't obviously did not have his hands up/away from the suspected weapon. We don't know what was said or if he was moving towards the suspected weapon. Being white or black does not change any of this. If a white kid acted the same it would most likely be the same result. Waiting for him to pull the suspected weapon out against what they told him to do could get them killed.

Is it OK if I point out that you guys are debating the Cleveland shooting in the Michael Brown thread? I agree that the kid (Tamir Rice) shouldn't have been shot for his actions shown on the video….Michael Brown, on the other hand, probably caused his own death. I still say that the REAL trigger of what appears to be an overly quick shooting was as a direct result of the driver-cop's actions. If he hadn't pulled up with his partner's door less than 10 feet from a reported 'kid with a gun' the shooter wouldn't have had to make a snap decision. If the car had been stopped further back and angled in a position where the passenger door could have been used as a shield, there would have been additional time for the shooter to assess the situation and take a defensive position. In this case, it appears to me both of the officers were incompetent….at best.

You're assuming that the cops knew he was there as they approached. It's very possible they were heading to swing set that the caller stated he was at in the 911 call when they saw him. Also a car door will not stop most rounds out of a firearm regardless of what you've seen in the movies. But if they saw the suspect and pulled right up to him I agree that was a bone head move.

The 911 call also said not once but twice the gun was probably fake. The officers shot this child despite the fact that there was nobody else around. (Nobody was in danger) These police fucked this up, shitty police acting on prejudice. I hope they get prison time, and I hope the asshole who hired them gets fired.

The call I heard said he didn't know if it was fake or not and he was across the parking lot. Furthermore you've stated that is impossible to quickly judge if a gun is fake or not. How do you know there was no one within shooting distance? So the cops should waitb until someone else is there before going in to find out what's going on? The cops were there because someone thought he possibly had a real gun based on the 911 caller. So they were also in danger and had reason to believe the kid had a gun. What facts do you have showing that the cop shot him because he was prejudice?

The fact that he shot an unarmed man. That, alone, is probable cause for an investigation/charges.

What the 911 caller said doesn't matter when evaluating the police behavior, as they were NOT given the information that it was a BB gun. As far as they know, they pulled up to someone who had been waving around a real gun.

Unarmed does not mean harmless especially when the subject is bigger than Brock Lesnar.

At 12, you don't show off your toys? I know I did.

12 yr olds should not be held to adult standards of behavior.

Pointing a gun at people walking by in a park is not showing off a new toy. It is threatening people with what appears to be a deadly weapon. Are you saying a 12 year old is less deadly with a weapon. Also I missed the part where the cops had a chance to get an ID from him to find out his age.

I see all these suicides by jumping off buildings. I have to wonder how many regret their decision before hitting the ground? I'm scared of heights and every time I've jumped off of a significant height into water (really high diving boards, bridges or cliffs) I freak out for a second and wish I hadn't jumped off that. I could only imagine the thought of jumping on to a solid surface. Especially with the way adrenaline seems too slow everything down. I put jumping off a building up there with as smart as lighting oneself on fire or trying to freeze oneself to death.

The Scala and sena are good options of you rode with other people that are willing to get them. Makes it easier to decide when and where to stop for food gas etc. and point out road hazards.

Magz keeps going to the within seconds comment. A lot can happen in a matter of seconds. Watching the video out its horrible to try to get an idea of what happened. It's recording like a strobe light. Also is a good idea to listen to the 911 call. The guy says there's a guy at the park pointing a gun at people when they walk by scaring the shit out of them. That is beyond "playing" with a toy gun. That's threatening people with a toy gun. It's not like this kid was running around with other kids making bang noises with other kids. If you go into a bank and rob it with a toy gun or even imply that you have a gun you get gun charges on top of the bank robbery charges. For all these cops knew this guy was threatening people with a gun then didn't comply with their orders. They are going to keep themselves safe first. The actions the kid made instead of complying are why he got shot, not his race.

I disagree, if Tamir rice were 12 yr old "Joey Taylor" there is not a chance the police show up and blow him away within 2 seconds of arriving on scene.

If he wasn't on the play ground with a toy gun that looked close enough to a real gun causing someone to call the cops he'd be alive. Why would race factor in? Are you saying if it were a black cop the kid would be alive? The assumption that the cops would have acted differently if the kid were white is absurd. Especially in today's day and age where kids are killing other kids at school. Do you have any example of a similar incident where it was a white kid doing the same thing and not getting shot?

In all of these cases the media makes it look like race was the only factor in what caused the police to do the things they did and people are dumb enough to believe it. But in reality I doubt it factored in at all. I believe the results would have been the same if it were any other combination of race involved. What happened to all these people who died were all a result of their actions with the police officers. Had they complied they would have not had any trouble. It was an assumption of risk on their part to not comply.

Never had a wired system before. I have had a Scala two way/fm radio/blue tooth. It worked great until I put one in my wife's helmet. Found out she could nag even on a bike ride. I'm just kidding it was a good add on. Was able to say stuff like oh that's cool look over there instead of did you see that cool thing 100miles back? Took away the stupid need for playing guess the hand signal. Plus was able to make phone calls while riding. I have always been skeptical about having my head tethered to a 400lb+ missile.

I saw a picture on Facebook that has figured out the conspiracy behind all these police brutality race fueled issues. It was a picture of protesters and the caption was "Nothing says F*[k the police like giving hundreds of them lots of overtime right before the holidays." The police are committing these acts on purpose to create media fueled riots so they can get extra money for Christmas. So right after Christmas this will all probably stop being covered and everything will go back to normal.