Mowgli1647545497

You can lay out your priorities and then use that to get the car for you. Or you can rationalize having the car you have.

 

90% of this thread is people doing the latter.

 

FWD is close to RWD? No. I'm looking thru my SCCA books (and I've got over 20 years of them) and in no year were FWD lap times close to RWD classes. What stats were you quoting, Speed Touring years when thru when, cuz I seriously want to look em up. Yuo talking the mixed lower brackets?

 

Cones in a parking lot all in 1st and 2nd gear and yanking on the E-brake to rotate does not equal hot lapping on a full track in a fast car with real power. I can't find any year where the best FWD class cars lap times fell even middle pack to either AWD or RWD classes of equivalent power. This is back to 83. Before that I can't say. So I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't buy a car to dodge shopping carts in the Kmart backlot. A well set up Go Kart will whup all comers there.

"The long and short of it is, buy what you like."

Again, so far, what I see is people just wanting to hear others say their car is a performer. And I refuse to feed ignorance.

 

Buy the car you want, sure. Drive the car you want, sure. But don't let rationalizing make you think you're driving more than you are. I talk to so many young people that completely don't have any grasp on the basics.

 

As an engineer, a useful excercise in design is to do "extremes" analysis. So for cars: Go to the pinnacle of pure road racing, say, oh, F1, and what do you see? There's your answer.

 

BUT - since for the past decade and a half what we the new car buying public had pushed down our consumer's throats was a glut of FWD cars, with a VERY few RWD and AWD cars for sale, the choices to the now-used car market are just as FWD biased as trying to buy a new performance car in 1994.

 

That doesn't mean FWD is just as good. It means you have to look harder to buy a good starting platform, or, you just gotta "work with what you can get".

French cars. They go fast in reverse.

Saw the whole thing riding around on my new bike onthe Post Rd overpass. They had to close the highway and Life Flight someone out. The only way to get the chopper in was to land it on the highway.

 

Hope whoever it was pulled thru. An hour stuck in traffic < losing your life.

I've seen worse Supras around town (alot worse) I'm sure would ask for more $$. IMO, thats the most I'd pay for a really clean 6spd turbo version. But then I'm not stupid...

Fake

I had a civic that completely died at 74k. commuter college car and never raced or abused and it just fell apart. I also had a F150 that is closing in on 400k, dad still owns it.

A 145lb rider should be riding horses at Scioto Downs.

 

Bike number three on its way to my garage this week smile.gif

 

But, as I'm officially old: its my first cruiser.

Mmm. Gotta go ride the ZX-11 now...

British should spend less time doing that and more time brushing their teeth.

As I understood it, the starting question to this thread was "why can't econobox xyz be accepted a good alternative sports car" - paraphrased.

 

Not going to speak for everyone else, but the reason I also think its better just to save up and get a better starting platform is not because econobox's tend to be four cylinders, or imports, or what-have-you. Its because they tend to be FWD. So to me, the layout is at the crux of the matter.

NW Columbus - ah, something close! I'll pop in.

http://www.richardsimmons.com/images/img/RichardBiofotos2.jpg

Originally posted by Nazi Administrator:

FWD is only good for one thing... beating ignorant people that think RWD is the only setup. smile.gif

Not the only setup. The better setup. Knowing what setup is better makes someone ignorant?

RWD and AWD goes down the 1/4 better. RWD and AWD goes around corners better. Its just simple fact. People aren't supposed to get PO'd about reality. But on CR I guess they do.

Originally posted by Beer Guy:

why is it that you people use the term "sports car" and only talk about quarter mile times?

 

i for one would not mod a honda ever. its too good of a daily driver to mess it up.

Not I. Ergo:

...Example: My wife's 03 Saab 93 Sport Sedan with the performance suspension package is a very well laid out FWD car that I'll put into the twisties up against 99% of the mod'd and slam'd econo's I see out there on the streets. Yet it still plows like a pig in turns that I take daily in the Cobra without issue - with groceries in the trunk.

...

The Cobra turns? Oops.

Originally posted by STR8 H8:

No words can describe the abortion i just clicked on.

LOL - ok THAT post made the thread good

I don't criticize people - I just criticize FWD. smile.gif

Not a concept car. A PICTURE from a GUY on HIS WEBSITE where he posts ARTISTIC images folks make with PHOTOSHOP.

 

Whew, that hurt spelling that out. Listen to KBOND.

 

Nice picture.

Oops - I posted after having read only page 1.

 

Arrrg.

 

I hate when that happens.

Originally posted by Mud Butt:

That is the point im trying to convey. Most anyone into cars will prefer rwd for any type of serious competition. But few people here are "serious" competitors. Every car has its advantages and disadvantages and for a true daily driven street car a fwd vehicle can make a fun compromise.

You don't have to be a "serious" competitor as you put it in order to run into the wall of FWD performance, and benefit from RWD or AWD. The threshold isn't nearly that high. Don't kid yourself that the FWD layout's performance ceiling is high enough or that close to RWD or AWD for it not to matter. Even just in "spirited daily driving".

 

Example: My wife's 03 Saab 93 Sport Sedan with the performance suspension package is a very well laid out FWD car that I'll put into the twisties up against 99% of the mod'd and slam'd econo's I see out there on the streets. Yet it still plows like a pig in turns that I take daily in the Cobra without issue - with groceries in the trunk.

 

The limit ain't that high. Don't know why you're trying to build some "its a viable alternative" arguement, friend, but I'm not buying. FWD is the poorest choice of the three, period. If its all you can find, fine. But rationalizing is called rationalizing for a reason. And this smacks of rationalizing.

 

BUT, there's always a but... But: FWD is a good layout for grandmothers, teeny-bopper girls, unattentive drivers, and generally people who can't control a car's rotation. And for the very same reason they don't go fast enough for people who can: they understeer. There's something to be said for that, I suppose. So if you're a poor driver but wanna drive faster than you should, sure buy FWD, you won't wreck it as fast as you would otherwise.

 

Originally posted by Venomss:

I have to respectfully disagree. I remember the opening sequence (e.g., "On my signal, unleash Hell...") being masterful, and I particularly liked the filming - something about the filming speed or film quality that reminded me of the opening sequence to Saving Private Ryan (which, IMO, is the most griping and intense opening sequence of any movie, ever).

This is all opinion:

 

That opening scene is exactly the one I was thinking of as well. I thought it sucked. I remember thinking in the theatre "hmm, if you can't afford the extras, or dont wanna take the time for real battle choreography, why not remove evey other frame and shake the camera around the 10 guys you hired to dance around each other in skirts? Sure....".

 

It worked better in SPR for a couple reasons, 1. SPR didn't go down to 15fps, 2. it was first person perspective, 3. there was a WWII precident of motorola camera captures that it evokes. I don't recall any wind-up cameras in Rome... it was a cheap stylistic conceit. Braveheart did it better. Hell, Keneth Branaugh's Henry V did it ten times as better with maybe 1/100 the budget. Ten times better? N oI'm being too nice, Agincourt kicked the shit out of Gladiator's opening scene. I will admit the in the more personal duel scenes it seemed to work much better. The acting in Gladiator was great too, seriously.

 

But that opening scene? "On my signal, unleash Hell." Gark! I almost moaned out loud in my seat.

 

How about: "On my signal, make with the PURE CHEEEEZE"

 

Thats just my opinion. By way of comparison, I think most of Jerry Bruckheimer flicks suck sweaty donkey balls too, but unlike Gladiator, they suck from stem to stern, dialog to photography. But they set new highs in hte suckitude of editting. Hello editting school? I'd like to enroll my friend Jerry for remedial editting class. Thanks. The Rock? Crap. Armageddon? Crap. Days of Thunder? Crap. Gone in 60 seconds? Crap. And so on...

CTS-V

Originally posted by 93TANG:

The 03 cobra that went 11's with Evan Smith driving, had a different pulley, exhaust, and was running on et streets. It was impressive that a few bolt ons and a little trickery and the car went that fast, but it definitely wasn't stock.

Different article.

Originally posted by O'Rourke:

While we're mag racing check this out-

 

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/features/0407pon_gtotest/

 

Same day, same track, 3 different drivers in each car including Evan Smith of MM&FF fame.

Evan Smith can make anything go fast. That man can drive! By way of comparison he took a stock 03 Cobra to 11.9x. Need to dig up that article. I think he took out the spare, rear seat, front sway bar, and lowered tire pressure to 20psi...

 

Anyhow - I've seen/read Smith take everything from Z28s to EVOs down the 1/4 and he always gets good times out of whatever car he's in. I wish I could drive like that.

 

+1 for not stripping a new GTO to get better times. The car is too nice to start ripping up.

I'd still buy one.

I said I didn't do those things. Didn't say I did nothing. The power's there for an 11.99, if I can drive it. We'll see. But you're right; I shoulda kept my mouth shut until I came home with a timeslip. Eh, if I beat my 12.62 from fall 02 I'll be happy. If I make it into the 11s I'll be one of only a dozen or so I know to have done so without a pulley or exhaust change.

 

Wease - its kinda up in the air. I'm staying at a friends house who's inviting his brother (00 SS) down from Lima also, so we're making a weekend of it. So its really when we can get all three of our schedules together, and the weather cooperates. I'll be sure to let you know when I know.