iwishiwascool

Hi FNG, Even people that disagree with me on here will tell you that I rarely look foolish. You made the blanked statement implying ALL business owners work hard, the operative word I used was "many". I am quite sure that hard working business owners, like yourself, are the majority. It would take me naming one of my current or former clients to disprove your argument. I own two businesses. Both are successful. I'm not "sick and tired" of it nor will we shutter our doors because of regulations or taxes. In fact, one of them will be doing business in Canada in 2013 where taxes and regulations are even higher. I understand that your business was likely blue collar (it obviously did not rely on your communication skills). I agree that most every blue collar business owner, whether a fast food franchise owner or general contractor, must work very hard to be successful. That is not always the case among white color businesses. Those successful brains you pick hire me to introduce and implement efficiencies that they do not see or in some cases to hire people so they do not have to do literally anything. Why do you feel the need to defend ALL business owners? Many consider it a mark of success to not have to work in the business and enjoy having the option to work on the business. Here's an exapmle: I have an idea for XYZ internet business. I pose the idea to an investor who puts in 100k. I hire a programmer and a marketing firm to create and introduce the product. I hire Tim to manage sales and operations. My CEO responsibility is as a figurehead and to discover the next opportunity, that business is now self sufficient. I'll pop in every once in a while to make sure everything is popping properly and that Tim is doing a good job.

Oh I get it, and I'm not necessarily arguing my views. While I do believe in a progressive tax system I do not believe in taxing capital gains any more than they are. In fact, I think there should be incentives that reduce the rate further for investments in certain types of businesses. The reality that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate, however, is not represented in the oversimplification and this misrepresentation of our tax system in the above allegory. As for support of a progressive tax system, many of the taxes we pay are regressive (Payroll, consumption, excise) these taxes represent impact lower income people disproportionately as a percentage of their income. I've said before, I don't really care about poor people, but I do believe in a powerful middle class, this cannot be accomplished if the burden of investment in the marvels that make the US such a great place to start a small business are disproportionately propped on teachers, policemen, and mechanics. The progressive Federal Income Tax evens out some of that disproportionality, middle and lower get dinged on consumption and payroll taxes while the upper income earners get dinged with higher income taxes. Investors, like Romney, get the best of both worlds with incentives to re-invest his significant capital. The system is far from perfect but "flat tax" or "fair tax" setups are so far beyond catastrophic that I don't think I need to be the one to explain it.

You are an idiot. I did not say YOU did not work hard. I said there are many business owners who do not work hard. You believe you "understand the situation" because your perspective is limited to your own experience within the sanctuary of your own individual business ownership? Just so I'm clear before I annihilate the thoughts dribbling out of your fingers, your argument is that ALL business owners work hard?

You are suggesting that a progressive tax codes is "socialistic". What do you suggest? When I was a Sales VP I did pay the performers and I fired the non-performers. Here in the real world what is your equivalency to "firing"?

So let me ask this, what would happen if every one "chose" to be owners and investors and the middle market collapsed. You are operating from a perspective that the middle class are second class citizens who have simply chosen not to be financially successful. You realize that some people choose occupations for reasons other than money, right? Are you saying we should punish those who chose to be mechanics, policemen, firefighters, teachers, and in many cases doctors; because they've chosen to pursue passion rather than riches? Are you saying your child's best teacher who is, at most, making 70k/year needs to "raise her game". Isn't this the antithetical argument? Taxes are a cost function and all investments are a risk/reward proposition. Taxes are not a punishment, they are a cost of doing business. When I sell a $100,000 order and the goods I sell cost 50k, I don't say "I made 100k and the manufacturer took away 50k". The cost of goods was a cost of doing business just as taxes equate to the expense of having a stable market to compete in. Want a zero tax environment? See how your business fares in Zimbabwe. My investments would still be successful less 7% more in taxes. I would still invest because my risk/reward analysis still makes sense. That's a joke right? Once you get to the consulting world you will realize that your perceptions of business owners is more dynamic than the "Job Creator" narrative you are being sold. Me and my wife would be a lot less busy if business owners worked as hard as you think they do. There is just as much entitlement at the top as there is on the bottom. If you can't even agree that a successful business makes a profit on our government's investment in infrastructure and the security to keep shit together, then this is not a worthwhile argument.

Ahh... The old barstool economics allegory that confuses simplicity with clarity. This fails to acknowledge a few things: the first 9 men who sell their labor or time also contribute a payroll taxes, they are disproportionately impacted by consumption taxes, and that 10th man's beer money likely came from capital gains which not only do not incur payroll taxes, but are taxed at a significantly lower rate. Additionally, the 10th man's internet (government invention), business employs 50 publicly (government), schooled employees, ships goods on the government's interstate system and benefits exponentially more from national and local civility being maintained by police and armed forces... among plenty of other disproportionate benefits. Simplicity is most often perceived as clarity when it reinforces one's preconceived notions.

I get very little advertising down here. That's the benefit, I suppose, of living in a state where my vote doesn't count.

The promise that the US could compete with China on Labor was an astoundingly flagrant lie that Romney knew was untrue. China is now having a hard time competing with China on labor as median wages have increased 22%. Companies are already seeking the "next China" in anticipation of the continued upward trend. The only way we can compete with China on labor is to further reduce wages. Interestingly, this is exactly what the Koch brothers want to do, free markets for all!

So I'm wondering how Romney supporters square the fact that his views were very similar to Obama's 5 years ago and even more draconian when he was Governor of Mass. How can you trust that his position won't change again once he is elected? I really don't care about this issue and am surprised that it has gone 2 pages here, I really don't think anything is going to change in the gun control legislation in the next 4 years. Maybe when Hillary is elected in 2016.

Make sure you get a pair of blondes and ensure that at least one of you is black and we've just written the first scene in every ghost/zombie/demon flick ever.

Dozens. Anything I typed to substantiate this sounded like a 13 year old bragging.

I definitely don't associate Romney voters with a six-figure income. In fact all the millionaires I know save one lean the other direction. I do find, however, that the least educated rural people I know lean right. The same, I'm sure, could be said about ignorant urban people who always vote democrat, but I don't know many of those types of people. The reality is that we all tend to judge the other "side" by the lowest common denominator, don't we? Republicans to Democrats are bible beating hicks clinging to their guns and religion and democrats to republicans are urban welfare queens who wouldn't know self actualization if they fell into it. Here in the real world there are people on both sides who are able to articulate with perfectly legitimate indignation why they lean the way they do all while fitting none of the above stereotypes.

Good call. I forgot about that. I'll let him know ASAP.

Yeah, I wonder why I even have that in my sig... I haven't owned an 11 second car in like 5 years.

I have mine mapped out on a screen at home so my baby can see where I am. (GeoPointe for Salesforce is awesome) A friend of mine did the southwest 50k pts x2 as reported in Million Mile Secrets. He owes copperhead a thanks for referring me to that email. I have some spending minimums to hit but after that I'll be looking at the next big AA miles card. We might do Bora Bora in April and Paris in September if we get enough points going here. That should give me enough time to figure out how to actually redeem these things.

That's what every woman over 40 calls me down here. I liked it then, I like it now.

Who is the other guy?

That's called redirection. Ryan was trying to do it all night. If you cite something as evidence of your point you don't later say, "Oh that may or may not exist but it doesn't matter", that is dishonest and certainly has not place in a intellectual debate.

Ok, so no studies?

Citation for studies.. Other than the two WSJ white papers written by Romney advisors. The rest of them that actually engage in simple math show that it is literally impossible without 10 years of sustained 4%+ growth. when did that last happen?

You go to much sexier places than me. Jelly.

Wear plate, shafting, bar stock, hardened pipe, etc. I sell to paper mills, power plants, chemical plants, mining operations, and any other heavy industrial application. I'm in a new "city" each night. It was Montgomery, Al last night but I started the week near Memphis.

I can't type that much on an iPad to muster a retort. If nobody else contests your points (especially the debt limit part) I'll do so tomorrow.

Yup, maybe I'll get to let you know how it is. I saw the million mile secrets guy review it, looks awesome.

Which ones specifically are you referring to?