Scruit Posted July 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) From: http://dogbitelaw.com/legal-rights-of-rescuers-who-incur-dog-bites/self-defense-when-a-dog-attacks-a-person.html It is lawful for a person to repel an attack by a dog:"[O]ne is 'privileged to destroy an animal for the purpose of defending himself or third persons against harm threatened by the animal, (a) if its actions led him to know or reasonably believe that the animal would inflict such harm and (b) the destruction was reasonable in view of the gravity of the harm threatened and © the person reasonably believed the harm could be prevented only by immediate destruction of the animal." (Devincenzi v. Faulkner (1959) 174 Cal.App.2d 250, 254-5.) I am not not presenting this as THE definitive legal authority, but assuming this is accurate for the sake of this discussion.... The level of risk posed by the dog that justifies deadly force is not is not "equal of lesser force", nor is it "deadly force". It is the much lower standard of "harm", with a little sprinkle of "reasonable" for good measure. Examining the factors listed: a) Did the dog's action lead the officer to believe that the animal would inflict harm? I believe so.b) Was the destruction of the dog reasonable compared to the level of harm it was was apparently about to inflict? Considering even a good chomp on the hand can be life-altering injury, I have to say I believe it was reasonable. Even worse, the dog could have continue to attack and maul him much worse, but that is speculative - it could have snapped at the air and then withdrawn - also speculative. Judging by the evidence before us, I believe the level of harm the dog looked like it was about to inflict warranted the immediate cessation of the dog's attack using deadly force.c) Did the officer believe that the only way to stop the harm was to destroy the animal? This is a sticky point because at the exact moment the officer was lunged at the gun was in his hand and he had no change to transition to another weapon. His options then were to shoot, evade, get bitten or hold his ground and hope the dog didn't bite. I do agree that the dog was present (and displayed a lunge already) for long enough that the officer should have had time to choose a less lethal weapon *IF* one was available to him, and it WOULD have been effective without exposing him to greater harm. So, should he have had OC in his hand for the second lunge? Or a taser? Or an asp? I don't know, and would defer to the opinions of people who know much more than I do about defending dog attacks. Another way to judge this case... If you are out with your CCW and this dog lunges at you like that, would YOU shoot it? I would. Edited July 3, 2013 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gump Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 Uh. I Would have jumped back or retreated then fired if pursued. This cop possibly was wanting a reason, he had his gun ready while approaching. Still stupid owner, stupid situation. At least the dog died fast. Seen much slower deaths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentcropduster Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 If this were me....I would of lunged back (away from the dog) and put my arm out and yelled very loudly "stop" etc. While at the same time I raise my gun upto his preferred hit area (chest or head). At that point while I had my arm out and yelled stop, if the said dog came at me further I would of put 3-4 rounds in him instantly. OR maybe I'd of chose to tase the dog? We can all say "thats is what I would have done" blah blah blah...but no one can really judge unless they were there having it happen to them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just_some_dude Posted July 3, 2013 Report Share Posted July 3, 2013 I first watched this without audio, then with audio to see if the guy said anything that would have sounded like he was going to somehow injure the cops or something along those lines. As far as I could tell the guy was just exercising his first amendment right. It is hard to tell, with the speakers I was listening through, if the guy said anything threatening (I don't think he did). If that is the case, I don't think the police had any justification (my opinion), to put the guy in handcuffs and manhandle him a bit. The way I look at this, the police were wrong from the start. If I look at it that way, the dog would have never been shot/provoked. Similar to 2 robbers going into a convenient store and one kills the clerk, they both get murder. The cops shouldn't have touched this guy and it is their fault the dog was killed. The man was not able to keep his dog in check because he was being physically restrained. His dog was potentially protecting his owner, I call that a good dog. In addition, the man went out of his way to put his dog in his car AND did not resist any BS the crappy cops decided to do to him. Cops were the aggressors, not the man or dog. - Was it reasonable for the officer to believe he was about to be bitten? Yes. - If yes, was it reasonable for the officer to fire a shot to stop that bite? No, for the reason that the officers were wrong to begin with. - Was it reasonable to fire the 3 follow-up shots? I never really considered the 3 shots to be follow up shots, just thought they took longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) People are issuing death threats against the officer, all police officers, the department etc. In fact, an unrelated local business who happens to have an employee of the same name as the public information officer (?) at the police department is receiving death threats from people who have obtained their phone number thinking it is the police department. Stupid ass people reacting irrationally to the shooting of a dog, yet abortion is legal.........go figure. Edited July 4, 2013 by Pokey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drew95gt Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Having extensive experience with Rotties (owned one and my ex g/f had two that I was around all the time), I would venture to say that if that dog was truly out to take down the cop...he would have. Rotties are very protective by nature which makes me see this as the dog coming to the aid of his master, not some vicious attack by an out of control animal. The dog didn't understand what was going on, he just saw three guys coming after his owner...I hope that if anything happened like that to me that my dog would have my back as well. IMO, the owner is just as much at fault for not securing his pup as the cop is for using deadly force...so I guess they are both assholes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) Having extensive experience with Rotties (owned one and my ex g/f had two that I was around all the time), I would venture to say that if that dog was truly out to take down the cop...he would have. Rotties are very protective by nature which makes me see this as the dog coming to the aid of his master, not some vicious attack by an out of control animal. The dog didn't understand what was going on, he just saw three guys coming after his owner...I hope that if anything happened like that to me that my dog would have my back as well. IMO, the owner is just as much at fault for not securing his pup as the cop is for using deadly force...so I guess they are both assholes. Dogs are no different than people in terms of being unpredictable. Now just at what point is deadly force acceptable to be used, had George Zimmerman continued to allow Martin to beat down on him "if this is how it actually occurred and Martin was the aggressor", should Zimmerman had waited longer until his jaw was broken or maybe perhaps his orbital socket, before he drew his weapon and fired? You see the problem is that sometimes waiting too long is simply too late, you make a judgement call and hope that it was the right call to make, you then deal with the consequences of doing so or not doing so. Owner was being stupid, and the dog was being a dog.....the dog lost. Edited July 4, 2013 by Pokey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Calm down Steve - I didn't call you an asshole, I just disagreed with your assessment of the situation. In one breath you're saying "all Rottweilers _______," and in the next you're saying, "I know not every Rottweiler fits the stereotype..." I'm just saying that you can never assume that any dog will act a certain way just because of what breed it is, or you think it is. And while I accept that certain breeds were historically bred for certain purposes, I think that the century or more of de-conditioning from those purposes makes them a product of their environment more than a product of their genealogy. We're all arm-chair quarterbacking this scenario. I don't think I would have shot the dog if I were in the cop's shoes, but then again, if I'm already holding a pistol, maybe I would. As much as it sucks for the officer, I don't think the mere threat of being bitten is enough to justify deadly force. In my mind, it would justify pepper spray or a taser, but use of a service weapon should be reserved for after the dog has actually bitten him and not let go. I'm sure that will be a highly unpopular stance with some people, but the fact is that in the current situation, we're all left to speculate as to whether or not the officer's actions were really necessary. I think it's safe to say that if he had been bitten, he would not have died, nor would he have suffered permanent injury. The dog is dead. It doesn't get much more permanent than that. And yes, the owner is ultimately to blame for putting or allowing his dog into a volatile situation. It is not my dogs' jobs to protect me. It is my job to protect them. Even if it's from their own good intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Having extensive experience with Rotties (owned one and my ex g/f had two that I was around all the time), I would venture to say that if that dog was truly out to take down the cop...he would have. Rotties are very protective by nature which makes me see this as the dog coming to the aid of his master, not some vicious attack by an out of control animal. The dog didn't understand what was going on, he just saw three guys coming after his owner...I hope that if anything happened like that to me that my dog would have my back as well. IMO, the owner is just as much at fault for not securing his pup as the cop is for using deadly force...so I guess they are both assholes. That's why I think the dog would have gone at the officers restraining the owner, rather than the third guy... But I wouldn't say my Rottweiler is any more protective than our Beagle. Of the house, maybe. Of me in particular? Nah... Kramer doesn't like people at the door, or on the other side of the fence, but once we let them in, he's fine with people. Even if they're picking on me. One of the best things you can do for any dog is show them that THEY are not in control of who enters the house. Don't let dogs be the first to greet guests. Someone needs to hold the dog back, and show them that the outsiders are there to see YOU (or your family member), and that no amount of barking is going to change that. After enough guests are not dissuaded by the dog's behavior, they get the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted July 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Having extensive experience with Rotties (owned one and my ex g/f had two that I was around all the time), I would venture to say that if that dog was truly out to take down the cop...he would have. Rotties are very protective by nature which makes me see this as the dog coming to the aid of his master, not some vicious attack by an out of control animal. The dog didn't understand what was going on, he just saw three guys coming after his owner...I hope that if anything happened like that to me that my dog would have my back as well. IMO, the owner is just as much at fault for not securing his pup as the cop is for using deadly force...so I guess they are both assholes. You cannot assume the cop has any such extensive knowledge of rottweiler behavior. Nor can you assume the cop does not have different experiences based upon his prior interactions with dogs that would make him act more defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted July 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 - If yes, was it reasonable for the officer to fire a shot to stop that bite? No, for the reason that the officers were wrong to begin with. So if the officer was wrong for stopping the guy then he should just allow himself to be bitten? What if they were right to detain the man? They accuse him of interfering with the scene they were already working by yelling and continually taking the officers' attention away from the folks they were already detaining. Considering they had rifles out, the folks they were already detaining must have been pretty dangerous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted July 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) In my mind, it would justify pepper spray or a taser, but use of a service weapon should be reserved for after the dog has actually bitten him and not let go. You wanna be a chew toy - knock yourself out. Good luck using that gun when you are being rag-dolled by that dog. Luckily the law says you don't have to be bitten to use deadly force, and the standard for dogs is to prevent "harm", so he's legally in the clear. Edited July 4, 2013 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixxie750 Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Why are you people so afraid of a dog? You think its ok for them to shoot the dog? So its not their fault at all this went down the way it did? First the guy put the dog in the car. The officers knew about the dog from the start. When they noticed the dog was not trapped in the car they should have told the guy to lock up the dog um because yea its going to get pissed off when you attack its owner. There was no rush to arrest a guy that was not fighting back nor trying to flee. If i was the officer I would have been smart and had dude lock his dog up or have him tie it to a post. No need to kill an animal for no reason. To PROTECT ans SERVE has gone away and now its about do what we want cause we can.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted July 5, 2013 Report Share Posted July 5, 2013 Why are you people so afraid of a dog? You think its ok for them to shoot the dog? So its not their fault at all this went down the way it did? First the guy put the dog in the car. The officers knew about the dog from the start. When they noticed the dog was not trapped in the car they should have told the guy to lock up the dog um because yea its going to get pissed off when you attack its owner. There was no rush to arrest a guy that was not fighting back nor trying to flee. If i was the officer I would have been smart and had dude lock his dog up or have him tie it to a post. No need to kill an animal for no reason. To PROTECT ans SERVE has gone away and now its about do what we want cause we can.. I will allow my 2 tiny Maltese dogs to attack you and inflict some damage to your lower legs....doubt you will enjoy it. Now take an animal that is more than 75 pounds of pure muscle with jaw strength that rivals some predators in the wild, and lets see how well you fair "if they decide to attack you". And once again we have armchair quarterbacks letting us know how much of a better decision they could make in a stressful or potentially dangerous situation that law enforcement encounters. You think I liked what happened to that dog any less than you? There are breeds of dogs that will fight to the death, you honestly think some pepper spray or even a police baton will stop them very quickly? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixxie750 Posted July 5, 2013 Report Share Posted July 5, 2013 That situation was not stressful at all! They had mass officers there and were aware of everything going on and even aware of the dog in a car with open windows. As for little dogs i'm sorry,but there is no fear of some cuts and bites and worst case you can football kick them away. I can't blame the dogs for being dogs,but i do blame the 3 cops for not thinking about the huge dog barking while they are messing with the owner. Either way that guy got out of jail and has to live without his best friend because of some prick cops being lazy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flounder Posted July 5, 2013 Report Share Posted July 5, 2013 Im a huge animal lover and it sucks to see this but when you view the video and see what took place (with the dog and police) the officer was in his right to protect himself. It looks as though he tried to get the leash 2x and fired after he was lunged at the second time. He was in the right IMO but the public and the lawyers will go back to this "Did the police have any reason to approach the man and cuff him in the first place" they will say that if they did not have that right or reason, then the entire set of events would not have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadyone Posted July 5, 2013 Report Share Posted July 5, 2013 It took me a few days before I allowed myself to watch this. In my opinion, The officers are in the wrong all dogs are going to jump out of an open window when their owner has someone aggressively restraining him. they saw the dog and heard it barking. as soon as it jumped out they should have allowed the man free to properly secure his dog. he willingly turned around to be cuffed. do you really think he is going to run away. Now that was all had this been me. that Officer is clearly not around dogs very often .and shouldn't have lunged for the leash. in doing so he caused the reaction from the dog. sad but because of the officer being unfamiliar with dogs the dog ended up dead. sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJC1000rr Posted July 5, 2013 Report Share Posted July 5, 2013 Yeah...because letting someone who is going to be arrested....go back into their car is such a good idea.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted July 5, 2013 Report Share Posted July 5, 2013 That situation was not stressful at all! They had mass officers there and were aware of everything going on and even aware of the dog in a car with open windows. As for little dogs i'm sorry,but there is no fear of some cuts and bites and worst case you can football kick them away. I can't blame the dogs for being dogs,but i do blame the 3 cops for not thinking about the huge dog barking while they are messing with the owner. Either way that guy got out of jail and has to live without his best friend because of some prick cops being lazy... Sounds like you are a bit anti-police IMHO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixxie750 Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 Yes I am anti anything that screws over the public and their freedom. VERY anti. They don't ever stop crime they just come and report crime or make up a crime so they can use their small penis powers. If they really wanted to be humans they could have told the man to just get in his car and leave. If he refused to do that they could have sat and talked it out and or defused the situation with a citation and let the man walk away. I am not anti police because if they were not in all our heads we would all break the law more,but they don't need to use their power to abuse the people that pay their bills. I have never had a policeman EVER help anything,but only show up to give tickets and haul away the aftermath of some crime or fight. Have u EVER been helped by an officer in any way? Or did they show up and write a report? We pay them to PROTECT and SERVE and i see neither of those in this video.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 (edited) I had a cop stop and put his lights on for me while changing a passenger side tire on 71 in an area with a tiny berm... Until he showed up, I had cars passing me at 80 mph within 3ft of hitting me...also had one stop and put on his lights and help me push my f150 off the road when it died at a stop light... Just saying. Edited July 6, 2013 by Steve Butters 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 I had a cop stop and put his lights on for me while changing a passenger side tire on 71 in an area with a tiny berm... Until he showed up, I had cars passing me at 80 mph within 3ft of hitting me...also had one stop and put on his lights and help me push my f150 off the road when it died at a stop light... Just saying. Hell he could've just shot you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJC1000rr Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 Or shot your truck.../snicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted July 6, 2013 Report Share Posted July 6, 2013 Maybe he was a cat person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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