Government Shutdown

[magley64]

Any militant/physical confrontation will be treated as treason/terrorism, and the US has one heck of a war machine.

 

 

This, all the little militias with their semi auto rifles have ZERO chance against the united states military.

[Bad324]

oh god here we go again with people only want AR's to create a revolution to takeover the government....give it a rest Magdor

[Cheech]

Look, here it is.  The ACA was passed by both houses of Congress.  It was signed by a very legal President.  It was challenged and held up to judicial review by SCOTUS.  Romney attempted to make the Presidential election a referendum on it, and failed miserably, furthermore Republicans failed to generate enough seats to get a majority in the Senate so it could be repealed.  You're all out of timeouts and the game's over.  The majority of Americans want this, otherwise they wouldn't have fought so hard to get it in there in the first place and keep people in place that wouldn't overturn it.  It's passed through every single check and balance this nation has as far as legislation.  And for fuck's sake, it just opened for business today, with provisions not related to the exchanges going into effect when the law was signed but the real meat and potatoes starts today.

 

I'm sorry that you feel so bootstrappy that you need to deny healthcare to others, or that you hopelessly cling to the idea that there's a sekrit muslin usurper in the White House, or that you're pissed because you don't understand what the concept of the debt ceiling is and why it's important the US doesn't default.  I really am.  I'm also fucking pissed off that the majority (at least from what I can see, i know there are a few my age that took this mantle) of these people are Boomers, who don't give a flying fuck what damage they do to the economy or world markets because fuck it, they got theirs and are already retired, why do they give a shit about the rest of us who are trying to build a 401k that's constantly under assault from market uncertainty?

 

In short, sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up, the rest of us grownups who have the mental capacity to engage in open dialogue and work through our differences without engaging in massive hyperbole, disinformation campaigns, or temper tantrums on the House/Senate floor have work to do.

[Cheech]

Balkanize. We're too divided and we aren't coming back. Give the people what they want and split the country. We can be allies an shit. Let Canada be the superpower for a while. We clearly can't handle the job anymore.

 

You know, this really isn't a terrible idea.  The lines more or less have already been drawn.

[Bad324]

You know, this really isn't a terrible idea.  The lines more or less have already been drawn.

its a great idea and what I wish could happen! I'm not against the poor having health care, I'm 100% opposed of me having to pay even more than I already do for them to get it

[Tonik]

Look, here it is.  The ACA was passed by both houses of Congress.  It was signed by a very legal President.  It was challenged and held up to judicial review by SCOTUS.  Romney attempted to make the Presidential election a referendum on it, and failed miserably, furthermore Republicans failed to generate enough seats to get a majority in the Senate so it could be repealed.  You're all out of timeouts and the game's over.  The majority of Americans want this, otherwise they wouldn't have fought so hard to get it in there in the first place and keep people in place that wouldn't overturn it.  It's passed through every single check and balance this nation has as far as legislation.  And for fuck's sake, it just opened for business today, with provisions not related to the exchanges going into effect when the law was signed but the real meat and potatoes starts today.

 

I'm sorry that you feel so bootstrappy that you need to deny healthcare to others, or that you hopelessly cling to the idea that there's a sekrit muslin usurper in the White House, or that you're pissed because you don't understand what the concept of the debt ceiling is and why it's important the US doesn't default.  I really am.  I'm also fucking pissed off that the majority (at least from what I can see, i know there are a few my age that took this mantle) of these people are Boomers, who don't give a flying fuck what damage they do to the economy or world markets because fuck it, they got theirs and are already retired, why do they give a shit about the rest of us who are trying to build a 401k that's constantly under assault from market uncertainty?

 

In short, sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up, the rest of us grownups who have the mental capacity to engage in open dialogue and work through our differences without engaging in massive hyperbole, disinformation campaigns, or temper tantrums on the House/Senate floor have work to do.

 

 

ObamaCare is a steaming pile of poo and should be repealed. The shutdown is not the way to do it. Imagine how the roles would be reversed in this thread if the Dem's were shutting down the government to get universal background checks on gun purchases.

[Cheech]

ObamaCare is a steaming pile of poo and should be repealed. The shutdown is not the way to do it. Imagine how the roles would be reversed in this thread if the Dem's were shutting down the government to get universal background checks on gun purchases.

 

I don't have to, since your argument is invalid on its face.  The Dems never engaged in hostage-taking with the gun control debate.  They tried to put it in in various forms I'll grant you, such as amendments and riders to other bills (which was a dumb idea then and now), but they never blocked important votes or took hostages in order to get it passed.

[Tonik]

I don't have to, since your argument is invalid on its face. The Dems never engaged in hostage-taking with the gun control debate. They tried to put it in in various forms I'll grant you, such as amendments and riders to other bills (which was a dumb idea then and now), but they never blocked important votes or took hostages in order to get it passed.

Um, I think you are arguing with someone that agrees with you.

[Gump]

Like ACA? Enjoy your two part time jobs, if your employer is around, 3.5% increase in taxes and pay cuts, freezes.

[Sapphy]

here is how I see it

 

Two men see a third man choking on a bite of his food. They begin to discuss the best way to save him, which leads to a hostile disagreement. While the two men fight each other, the choking man dies. Which of the two men is at fault for not acting to save the choking man? Had both men worked together, would they not have stood a chance of saving the third man's life?

By blaming one man, we exhibit the same reckless behavior that cost the choking man his life. We also show that we approve of this inappropriate behavior. 

Only by holding both men accountable, can we expect them to act appropriately and work together.
 

[jbot]

I wish we could all sit down for pizza bagel bites, instead of all this "us vs them" nonsense. You know who doesn't love pizza bagel bites? Communists and paleo people. And let's be honest... They're not really people.

[baptizo]

 

Cheech said:

I don't have to, since your argument is invalid on its face.  The Dems never engaged in hostage-taking with the gun control debate.  They tried to put it in in various forms I'll grant you, such as amendments and riders to other bills (which was a dumb idea then and now), but they never blocked important votes or took hostages in order to get it passed.

 

No one has been taken "hostage" over the fiscal budget debate, debt ceiling, or your beloved socialist program called 0bamacare, Cheech. Hell, the shutdown is more like a slimdown if you look at it objectively and since it has happened 17 times since 1976 nothing catastrophic has happened to our economy.  In fact, back in '96 our economy hit a boom during the silence from DC but unfortunately, we're not in a position to benefit likewise this time around.

 

As for your twisted view of the government's role in our lives along with the 0bama administration, I honestly don't believe that you can be helped to see his clear as fucking day socialist bent and subsequent agenda being forced on the American people as he shipwrecks the Constitution, manipulates the law, plays favorites, and attacks his enemies like a schoolyard bully.

 

And you're supposed to be one of the smart one's here. 

 

Pffft.

[Cheech]

It wasn't meant to be funny. Split the nation and let the will of the people prevail. What's the biggest gripe you hear from the right, myself included? The FedGov is not capable of caring for the entire nation. Someone will always be left out to dry. Well, make the nation smaller. Almost like Canada, but with less French speaking people. Fuck the French.

Edit: So, nothing at all like Canada, really. I re-read what I posted. Fuck Canada, too.

I should add that I will be living in the country that welcomes business by keeping corporate taxes at reasonable levels, where we have free-market capitalism and legalized drugs, prostitution and where the national sport is soccer.

I wasn't being sarcastic. It seems that the same group of people who keep chanting to burn it down, drown government and so on frequently do it with a copy of Atlas Shrugged in their back pocket. They want to go Galt? Fine by me. Pick a nice parcel of land (my vote is the entire state of Wyoming, and I'll throw in S Dakota for free) we'll fence it off, and they're free to create whatever cornball vision of America they like.

[ReconRat]

The president is responsible for all that happens, as a matter of honor.

The population is responsible for all that happens, as a matter of principle.

The politicians are responsible for all that happens, as a matter of willfullness.

The media is responsible for all that happens, as a matter of ratings.

The corporations are responsible for all that happens, as a matter of profit.

 

Did I leave anything out?

[Cheech]

No one has been taken "hostage" over the fiscal budget debate, debt ceiling, or your beloved socialist program called 0bamacare, Cheech. Hell, the shutdown is more like a slimdown if you look at it objectively and since it has happened 17 times since 1976 nothing catastrophic has happened to our economy. In fact, back in '96 our economy hit a boom during the silence from DC but unfortunately, we're not in a position to benefit likewise this time around.

As for your twisted view of the government's role in our lives along with the 0bama administration, I honestly don't believe that you can be helped to see his clear as fucking day socialist bent and subsequent agenda being forced on the American people as he shipwrecks the Constitution, manipulates the law, plays favorites, and attacks his enemies like a schoolyard bully.

And you're supposed to be one of the smart one's here.

Pffft.

Using the 0 instead of O completely derailed my arguments. I'm defenseless in the face of such a well-reasoned and well-spoken person.

[Casper]

You know, this really isn't a terrible idea. The lines more or less have already been drawn.

Ugh. I want to move south but Carie won't. I'd be stuck with you blue assholes.

[Bad324]

I just had a convo at dinner that if Hillary is elected I'm packing up the family and moving my ass south in hopes its the last straw to secede and split this shit up

[Pokey]

The Divided States of America, yup that is what we have become. Federal Gov has too much power and authority, give most of that back to the states as it should be. I see some Mad Max shit coming in the not so distant future, we are truly a fucked up country now. Mr Obama is the must inept excuse for a leader this country has ever witnessed, he has done irreparable damage and the leaders of other nations just laugh their ass off at him and his minions. Obamacare will fail and it will not last, a buddy of mine is involved in the nationwide implementation of it, says the funding is not sustainable. I agree with a post already made, we must have mandatory term limits going forward, too many old fuckers that have been in forever, just building up that nest egg at "our expense". The President can only serve 2 four year terms, that needs to be the same for everyone across the board. Keep things fresh and productive, have new folks being voted in that may actually give a rats ass and who are not dead set in their ways and can actually work together for a change. Needs to be 3 parties beyond any doubt, all 3 with equal funding and no advantages due to deep pockets from contributors. Nothing but a turf war and a gang war, and the President makes no bones about it when it comes to what gang he fully supports.I would like to see a national shutdown, everyone just stay home and not do a damn thing....and I mean everyone. Doubt we could do that for very long, oh the chaos and bad shit that would go down.....just like if we had a nationwide catastrophe. Would something like that finally get them to understand on capital hill, that we the people are the United States of America......and NOT THEM?

[Anden]

John Stewart found the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q-OyhPDobY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[John]

I'm a fan of "essential government employees". I'm also a fan of "if you're deemed non-essential, then how about a permanent layoff?" If you aren't critical to the function of the government or services, then we ought not be paying for you in the first place.

 

how can we get things like DHS classified as non essential?

 

id much rather pay for museums and parks than to pay some redneck to fondle me at the airport.

[CleaveTheGreat]

I wasn't being sarcastic. It seems that the same group of people who keep chanting to burn it down, drown government and so on frequently do it with a copy of Atlas Shrugged in their back pocket. They want to go Galt? Fine by me. Pick a nice parcel of land (my vote is the entire state of Wyoming, and I'll throw in S Dakota for free) we'll fence it off, and they're free to create whatever cornball vision of America they like.

Way to stereotype all Libertarians you douche. Also, Obamacare is a horrible piece of legislation. I think that everyone should have access to affordable health care. The problem with this law is that it DOES NOT make health care affordable. Premiums are increasing drastically in many places. Also, to force people to purchase insurance or pay a fine is completely unconstitutional and the SCOTUS should be ashamed for upholding such bullshit as a "tax". Cheech, to say that those who oppose Obamacare want to deny health care to the poor or less fortunate members of society is disingenuous and you know it. Come up with a better argument.

Edited October 2, 2013 by CleaveTheGreat

[magley64]

Obamacare is a horrible piece of legislation. I think that everyone should have access to affordable health care. The problem with this law is that it DOES NOT make health care affordable. Premiums are increasing drastically in many places. Also, to force people to purchase insurance or pay a fine is completely unconstitutional and the SCOTUS should be ashamed for upholding such bullshit as a "tax". Cheech, to say that those who oppose Obamacare want to deny health care to the poor or less fortunate members of society is disingenuous and you know it. Come up with a better argument.

 

Without Obamacare, what is to stop insurance companies from refusing coverage for people with pre-existing conditions?

 

"Affordable" is a relative term, "denied coverage" is not.

 

Without Obamacare, what is to stop insurance companies from capping coverage to people who have an illness?

 

Again, "affordable" is relative, but "dropped from coverage" is not.

 

The individual mandate (which I hate as much as you do, by the way) was the trade off, the give back to the insurance companies who otherwise would have no recourse, or compensation for these new liabilities they were being forced to adopt. People could just go without coverage, wait until they got sick, or injured, then buy insurance that day to pay for it. It is an attempt to limit people gaming the new system.

 

What part of Obamacare (other than the individual mandate) are you so dead set against?

Edited October 2, 2013 by magley64

[redbarron77]

[magley64]

here is how I see it

 

Two men see a third man choking on a bite of his food. They begin to discuss the best way to save him, which leads to a hostile disagreement. While the two men fight each other, the choking man dies. Which of the two men is at fault for not acting to save the choking man? Had both men worked together, would they not have stood a chance of saving the third man's life?

By blaming one man, we exhibit the same reckless behavior that cost the choking man his life. We also show that we approve of this inappropriate behavior. 

Only by holding both men accountable, can we expect them to act appropriately and work together.

 

 

Well that's great, unless one of the men's plan regarding saving him is stabbing him in the chest until the food comes out.

In that case the second man arguing is actually giving the choking man a better chance of survival, since he won't have to contend with choking AND stab wounds...

 

Compromise: you stab him, and I'll give him the Heimlich...

 

there is nuance to everything.

Edited October 2, 2013 by magley64

[Cheech]

Way to stereotype all Libertarians you douche. Also, Obamacare is a horrible piece of legislation. I think that everyone should have access to affordable health care. The problem with this law is that it DOES NOT make health care affordable. Premiums are increasing drastically in many places. Also, to force people to purchase insurance or pay a fine is completely unconstitutional and the SCOTUS should be ashamed for upholding such bullshit as a "tax". Cheech, to say that those who oppose Obamacare want to deny health care to the poor or less fortunate members of society is disingenuous and you know it. Come up with a better argument.

 

Who's talking about Libertarians?  There are PLENTY of hard-line Repubs who read Rand so many times that they're making slashfic out of the main characters.

 

For every piece of evidence (and the plural of anecdote is not data) you bring to the table that premiums are being raise "drastically", I can show you similar data that there are MILLIONS of people that were previously not able to afford healthcare and since they have access to affordable coverage they will hopefully start buying it and reducing the costs for us all with lessened ER visits.

 

Look, I'll save us both some hand-wringing here.  It's a law, it passed Constitutional scrutiny, and it's done.  Yes, it has some parts that are less than ideal (the individual mandate), but it's a damn sight better than what we had.  Republicans had all the time in the world to negotiate and argue about it when it was going through Congress, and instead they all decided that if they just sat on their hands and did nothing, then the bill wouldn't pass.  Well, it did.  How about you give it a year after it's fully implemented and then we'll see what happens?  The same fervent teeth-gnashing happened with the New Deal and Social Security, and I'm willing to bet that a SIGNIFICANT percentage of people that are decrying this LAW are collecting some sort of SS/Medicare benefit, and would probably shoot you in the face with the Garand they kept from the War if you tried to take it away from them.