smashweights Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 I maintain that our justice system should not be seeking vengeance.We are supposed to be BETTER than those we punish and execute. Torturing them, or even killing them immediately and painlessly, makes us the same as them. Or wouldn't you have a problem with a murderer who kills his victims quickly and painlessly? The guy in Cleveland imprisoned his victims for years. Are we any better than him for imprisoning him for his crime? Does that make us the same as him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 FWIW, not like it fucking matters... Fuck him, I hope he did feel it.I like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 I agree with kaw Our justice system should not be a revenge system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashweights Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) I agree with kaw Our justice system should not be a revenge system... what really is the difference between justice and revenge? justice: "the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments" revenge: "to avenge (as oneself) usually by retaliating in kind or degree"avenge: "to exact satisfaction for (a wrong) by punishing the wrongdoer" Really the only difference is impartiality (vs. satisfaction) and merit. By having a jury of people not directly affected by the crime brings impartiality, merited punishment is really what we're debating here. Edited January 17, 2014 by smashweights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 I'd have more sympathy on a gangbanger that kills people with a bullet to the head, than a man who rapes tortures mutilates and slowly kills his victims. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokey Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Sometimes I really like the vigilante justice option, and in many situations it would no doubt be justifiable. Some real life punisher's out there could really make a dent in our lawless society, but NO that would just be too uncivilized and unjust in the eyes of many. Guess the much better option is to overfill every single prison system in every state beyond capacity, and let us continue to not give those a chance who can actually be rehabilitated, because they are mixed in with the life sentence felons and other pieces of damaged goods garbage. Give the bad guys something to truly fear, let them become the prey for a change. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 The guy in Cleveland imprisoned his victims for years. Are we any better than him for imprisoning him for his crime? Does that make us the same as him? No. Ariel Castro abducted and repeatedly raped three women for a decade. He kept them bound, deprived them of food, and created a general atmosphere of terror that is far worse than any American prison. I'm not against punishing criminals when they have been convicted of crimes that warrant a deprivation of their freedom, but I think it has to be about punishment and not revenge. They have proven that they are not to be trusted in society, so we sequester them with others who are also not to be trusted with freedom. Absent a reliable form of rehabilitation, I don't know what else we can do that is more efficient. Killing an inmate does nothing to rehabilitate them, and ENDS their punishment. There's a fine line between punishment and vengeance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashweights Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) Admittedly, Castro's a bad example. But my point is still that you can't say that someone killed someone, so we kill them, and therefore are no better. If I took someone, against their will, locked them up, and fed them for years (in essence, exactly like prison), is the state just as wrong for locking me up and feeding me for years against my will as punishment? The logic just doesn't stand up.ALL punishment can be construed as "vengeance" or "revenge" in some regard. Afterall, vengeance is simply "punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense" and I already pointed out the revenge definition. In fact, you said that killing an inmate ENDS their punishment, as if you favor life in prison because it PROLONGS their punishment... sounds like vengeance or revenge moreso to me. IMO, when you murder someone, you deprive them of years of life, their family of years of relationships, all their dreams, plans, loves, etc. Things they will never have another opportunity to pursue. By imprisoning someone for life, even if it's not a great life, it's still life experienced, and to me that is still FAR better than the fate given to their victims. And until we can "rehabilitate" the victims from death, I could care less if we had the world's best murderer rehabilitation program that would guarantee they'd be better humans. As an example, a woman at our church has a relative who's serving life without parole at Louisiana State Penitentary for 2nd degree murder. My dad and a few other guys from our church as well as his family go to visit him. He gets to visit family/friends multiple times per year, make artwork, there are parks and recreation facilities on the prison campus. Sorry, but for a guy like this article is about this would NOT be justice. If you want to Count of Monte Cristo his ass in solitary never to leave a 50 sq ft room without electricity and nothing but meals slid under a door for life? You might have my support, but as it stands life in prison in America is not justice for scum like the man executed today. Edited January 17, 2014 by smashweights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 If you don't understand the difference between revenge and justice, you should avoid a career in law enforcement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashweights Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 If you don't understand the difference between revenge and justice, you should avoid a career in law enforcement... I already posted the difference, keep up: justice is, in essence, revenge that is just (moral), impartial, and based on merit. All three of those conditions are met thanks to selection of an impartial jury trial administering punishment in accordance with the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 I disagree...the key difference is with intent, not with morality, merit, or impartiality...We can certainly point out that justice concerns the proper punishment for bad behavior while revenge can be any kind of punishment for any perceived slight. If that’s the only difference, however, then it seems that justice is merely a type of revenge.I propose a further difference, which concerns virtue ethics: true justice is motivated by the desire to establish a better society; revenge is motivated by the desire to harm. That is, of course, if we actually wish to make justice a noble pursuit instead of an expression of barbarism that conveniently has some social benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx3vfr Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 If you don't understand the difference between revenge and justice, you should avoid a career in law enforcement...well libtards like you think justice is cops beating the shit out of people when they are arrested.No more death penaltyNo more abortions andNo more cops beating people senseless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Sometimes I really like the vigilante justice option, and in many situations it would no doubt be justifiable. Some real life punisher's out there could really make a dent in our lawless society, but NO that would just be too uncivilized and unjust in the eyes of many. Guess the much better option is to overfill every single prison system in every state beyond capacity, and let us continue to not give those a chance who can actually be rehabilitated, because they are mixed in with the life sentence felons and other pieces of damaged goods garbage. Give the bad guys something to truly fear, let them become the prey for a change.I like you too. It sounds awful, but if something happened to my family, to the point where I was all that is left. I will definitely play the role of the punisher to the best of my ability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 well libtards like you think justice is cops beating the shit out of people when they are arrested.No more death penaltyNo more abortions andNo more cops beating people senseless. Conservatards like you think your church should run the government... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Vigilante justice is off-topic for this thread. If people support the "Dexter" philosophy, I can understand that (even if i dont agree), but I don't think it's the justice System's place to be imposing the same penalties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx3vfr Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Conservatards like you think your church should run the government...Um no. Churches are jokes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Um no. Churches are jokes doesn't matter, if you're a conservative, you agree with every conservative opinion and conservative pundit on every issue...therefore you want a theocracy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekClouser Posted January 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/17/22339152-family-of-ohio-killer-executed-with-untested-drug-mix-plans-to-file-lawsuit?lite Apparently this didn't go too well... Gasped for air for about 19 minutes and now the family is filing a lawsuit. Article does say specifically they aren't seeking monetary gains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodninja420 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/17/22339152-family-of-ohio-killer-executed-with-untested-drug-mix-plans-to-file-lawsuit?liteApparently this didn't go too well... Gasped for air for about 19 minutes and now the family is filing a lawsuit. Article does say specifically they aren't seeking monetary gains.What a shit show.On the one hand this freak deserved every ounce of suffering. On the other hand I am not okay with our government doing this to people.Maybe I am making the case for vigilante justice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx3vfr Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 doesn't matter, if you're a conservative, you agree with every conservative opinion and conservative pundit on every issue...therefore you want a theocracy...where did I ever say I was a conservative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madcat6183 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 I am 100% fine with it. I wish it would have been 19 hours, maybe longer. Who is to say how long the lady he murdered suffered, what about her family? Totally fine with it. The lawsuit is epic BS but can't say I am surprised. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magley64 Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) where did I ever say I was a conservative?Where did i ever say i was a liberal? Edited January 17, 2014 by magley64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmanlyst Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 "The autopsy revealed that [Joy Stewart] had been stabbed twice. Onewound, located above the left collarbone, caused no significant injury.The critical wound was a four-and-a-half-inch-deep cut in the throat,which completely severed the carotid artery and jugular vein. The doctordetermined that [Joy Stewart] was alive when she received the wound,and that such a wound could have been caused by a single-edged bladeshorter than four and a half inches" Screw him he deserved every second of it, should have been longer IMO. If you read this and start talking about human rights blah blah blah, he gave his up when he made the choice to murder a woman and child for her rejecting his sexual advances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 "Now you will receive us...!We do not ask for your poor or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick. It is your Corrupt we claim...!It is your evil that will be saught by us. With every breath we shall hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood till it rains down from the skies...!Do not Kill...Do not Rape...Do not Steal...These are principles, which every man of every faith can embrace. These are not polite suggestions, these are codes of behavior and those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost...!There are varying degrees of evil. We urge you lesser forms of filth, not to push the bounds and cross over into true corruption, into our domain...!But if you do you, one day you will look behind you and you will see we three, and on that day, you will reap it. And we will send you to whatever God you wish...!'...and shepherds we shall be, for thee my Lord for thee, power hath descended forthfrom thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command. We shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be...'In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti..." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Where did i ever say i was a liberal?Here. ...when it comes to most social issues, I'm a liberal...And here. ...With some shit, I'm liberal. With other shit, I'm conservative.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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