Riders Insurance, Ask Powersports

[Hoblick]

 

 

I understand that H of M probably didn't do the best job.  But, being from a dealership, it is very possible what they thought would be enough to photograph and report was going to total the machine and get you handled was simply not enough and had to do more.

 

You also may not know that Rider's Insurance is at a cross roads on costs and payouts right now.  Especially on sportbikes and their premiums are changing.  When they have something that is looking totalled, they probably want to get more pics, more details and really dive in and make triple sure it is not at all salvageable.  I've talked to the rep for here and what they are going through is that they've paid out a lot without question (Could also be why H of M did a quicky estimate) and are now looking a lot harder at these things. 

 

 

 

the auditor from Riders told me and i quote..

 

"i usually get an estimate with about 40 pictures, not 6.  when i can an estimate, i have pictures of every part damaged that way i can see for a fact that that piece needs replaced.  all they sent me was extreme close up photos of a few frame shots, a bent wheel, and a tie rod.  I know the frame is damaged i can see that, but the frame is $1600, i wanna know where all the other cost is coming from that they wrote up on the estimate"

 

 

so not only that, but again they missed ALOT of things that were damaged.  This is my vehicle, and this is the difference between my vehicle getting torn down and completely fixed.. taking weeks upon weeks, or total loss.  and it had already been a few weeks for them to do an estimate, which shouldn't have taken them that long.  Riders insurance was on point and quick on there end.  HM was not, staling the process.  this is keeping me from getting me back on the trail.  thats not good customer service in my book.  i don't care what the excuse is.  and i said before, i WAS gonna have HM fix it if it was fixable.  i know a mechanic down there, Doug, who is a hell of a mechanic and one guy id trust to do the work.  but after the terrible job on the estimate, that I had to finish i was over it and not gonna have them do it if it was fixable.  no excuses, they should have done better.

[Hoblick]

yes, everyone is out to get a deal.  its a fact of life.  i understand there are profit margins to make or the doors will close.  Unfortunately there is a warm fuzzy feeling you get when you can get a better price.  people like to feel like they are being treated fairly.

[MidgetTodd]

Hinder Honda is also a powerhouse dealer and coincidentally the worst experience I've ever had bar none. Sad because they are close to me too. I wonder if the PowerHouse designation gives them a sort of sence of security that that don't have to try as hard?

[Hoblick]

double post 

 

Edited July 31, 2014 by Hoblick

[Hoblick]

Hinder Honda is also a powerhouse dealer and coincidentally the worst experience I've ever had bar none. Sad because they are close to me too. I wonder if the PowerHouse designation gives them a sort of sence of security that that don't have to try as hard?

i think so, I've heard them use the line "well we are a powerhouse dealer" more than once

[max power]

I've also purchased a new motorcycle from ASK. They had a better price than anyone else that's the only reason I bought there. I would never, ever let them do service to any of my motorcycles. Their service department is exclusively filled with morons.

[Moto-Brian]

I've also purchased a new motorcycle from ASK. They had a better price than anyone else that's the only reason I bought there. I would never, ever let them do service to any of my motorcycles. Their service department is exclusively filled with morons.

 

 

This is an issue...  Why pay less and take it to a dealer you trust vs. paying a little more and doing everything under one roof?  That's the mentality that is what I am referring.  It just doesn't make sense...  I will pay more to get great all round service vs. just a cheap deal.

[bloodninja420]

This is an issue... Why pay less and take it to a dealer you trust vs. paying a little more and doing everything under one roof? That's the mentality that is what I am referring. It just doesn't make sense... I will pay more to get great all round service vs. just a cheap deal.

The way you're qualitatively framing this, I completely agree and probably so does everyone else here.

But to Butters' point, you have to consider the actual dollars.

There is no level of customer service that is worth a $1000 premium on a sub-$15k vehicle, is my opinion.

[Moto-Brian]

yes, everyone is out to get a deal.  its a fact of life.  i understand there are profit margins to make or the doors will close.  Unfortunately there is a warm fuzzy feeling you get when you can get a better price.  people like to feel like they are being treated fairly.

 

 

It's our culture.  That's the issue.  It is a fact, but again...  the culture is such that we shop price and buy price.  We don't value things enough...  Take a deal you get on price and go to another "local" dealer for service.  The dealer is scheduled 3-4 weeks out.  Had you bought from them, they'd have you in under 2.  Is that worth something?  Is the level of service worth something?  Is that traveling further for a deal worth something? 

 

We used to have customers come in and literally drive 3-4 one way for $1000.  They'd spend a day off work, spend the fuel, food, and then come to us for service because we were good and we were honest.  Then, they'd get pissed when we would put customers in front.  I have a guy that bought from me and needs to get his bike serviced to get back out and ride vs a guy that low balled me and went to the opposite end of the state to buy something...  Customer wins.  Schedule has the guy waiting additional time to get his stuff fixed...  He can then drive 3-4 hours one way again for lower level service and probably have to make that trek again to pick up. 

 

Do that a few times and that discount isn't that much of a deal.  The cost of great service guys is high.  The cost of proper tooling, proper training, proper amounts of accessories, proper amount of simple quality all costs money.  You can be a volume dealer that sells a lot at a low margin or you can be a quality dealer that sells less for a higher margin.  Either way, it comes out the same.  It's the reviews, the customer service and the overall experience that matters...  When I hear a guy bought on price, but thinks the service department is terrible, that means something...

 

I know H of M probably should have done better.  Sounds like the insurance guy validated that it wasn't done up to spec.  A little weird they don't send someone out like Progressive or State Farm, but nonetheless sounds like it was handled below average.  But, we all make mistakes.  And the issue is the internet has everyone chirp about how bad things were vs. how good.  Not you.  You've had both.  So, very fair.  Just most complain before they praise...

[RCBS]

if you have an FZ1, don't bother with rider insurance (at least, for me).  my insurance went from like $125 a yr to 500~600/yr JUST for the FZ1.  For reference, my 998s was 250/yr.

 

i switched and saved a gazillion dollars at progressive.

Lots of chatter over on Triumph675.net about huge rate hikes at Rider's.

[Moto-Brian]

The way you're qualitatively framing this, I completely agree and probably so does everyone else here.

But to Butters' point, you have to consider the actual dollars.

There is no level of customer service that is worth a $1000 premium on a sub-$15k vehicle, is my opinion.

 

See my example.  I can save $1k and actually get my bike serviced by better techs than if I had it shaved off the deal.  At $100/hr average these days in service, the fact that you either drive that far away to get the bike serviced and worked on and the fact that you may have a higher return rate (Most the discount shops have a higher than average return rate on serviced bikes), what's that worth in the course of a couple of years you own the thing?

 

Not to mention the priority customers get over walkers.  That time down is worth something also.  I guess I look at things differently as what I do for a living and my own experiences...  But, value to me is more than price. 

[Hoblick]

See my example.  I can save $1k and actually get my bike serviced by better techs than if I had it shaved off the deal.  At $100/hr average these days in service, the fact that you either drive that far away to get the bike serviced and worked on and the fact that you may have a higher return rate (Most the discount shops have a higher than average return rate on serviced bikes), what's that worth in the course of a couple of years you own the thing?

 

Not to mention the priority customers get over walkers.  That time down is worth something also.  I guess I look at things differently as what I do for a living and my own experiences...  But, value to me is more than price. 

you also aren't a normal customer, so your points are not that valid to me.  you work for ducati, so you also don't pay close to retail on anything, or sometimes not at all.

 

99% of the time i will never take a bike into a dealer for service as i can do it myself, so the service side of things is pretty bunk to me.  as well as a lot of folks on this site.

 

id say that over 70% of the people on this site do there own work or take it to a local person I.E. me, pauly, crazy skull crusher.

and why is that?  we are cheaper, better service, quicker turn around.

 

so if dealer A has a great sales staff, killer prices and easy to deal with, but service dept sucks vs. dealer B who has an average sales staff, is good to deal with, great service dept, and MSRP + pricing, guess where I'm going.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Hoblick

[max power]

Double post

Edited July 31, 2014 by max power

[max power]

In my defense, I will only take a bike into a dealer for service when all else fails. And I mean all else, unless it's under warranty, and even then I'm very leery.

This is because every dealership I've ever encountered has only hired the cheapest, most under-qualified "technicians" that they can find.

[Moto-Brian]

you also aren't a normal customer, so your points are not that valid to me.  you work for ducati, so you also don't pay close to retail on anything, or sometimes not at all.

 

99% of the time i will never take a bike into a dealer for service as i can do it myself, so the service side of things is pretty bunk to me.  as well as a lot of folks on this site.

 

id say that over 70% of the people on this site do there own work or take it to a local person I.E. me, pauly, crazy skull crusher.

and why is that?  we are cheaper, better service, quicker turn around.

 

so if dealer A has a great sales staff, killer prices and easy to deal with, but service dept sucks vs. dealer B who has an average sales staff, is good to deal with, great service dept, and MSRP + pricing, guess where I'm going.

 

 

But I've been around more dealers than anyone on the site, I have probably worked at a dealership longer than anyone on the site and I also know what reality is in terms of service.  Yes, guys like yourself that do quality work are great and numerous people go to techs like yourself.  But, I can promise that 70% aren't going to guys like yourself.  If they were (I can tell you for example how many people bought motorcycles in Ohio and even your area), you'd be doing it full time.

 

The point I am making is that of the thousands of thousands of people that buy motorcycles, more get their bikes serviced at the dealer level than those that do not.  We sell 10k bikes in North America.  You are saying that 7k have them serviced at places other than the dealer.  That is simply not true.  Also, of the near 10k members here, I can almost bet that the number isn't 70%.

 

You then take into account the fact that bikes today are needing more and more electronic work done and guys like yourself do not have that equipment...  So, they HAVE to go to the dealer for that...  Yes, older stuff is a different story.  And several dealers will not accept older year units. 

 

As far as not being normal, you are right.  But, I have experience and talk to a LOT more riders and motorcyclists than normal also.  I also have eyes on things like CSI scores and what the customer wants when they buy a new or used motorcycle.  The data that I am looking at is usually not ever available to the general public.  So, when I speak about it, it typically is from data that I have seen or from past and current experiences. 

 

Again, I think that customers look at customer service and overall experience with a lot of thought.  For an example like Ducati, price is sooooo further down the scale than the average.  But, because I work for that company doesn't mean I don't know about other brands.  I worked in the MX industry and I can promise you that price is ALL that matters.  I have also worked at a shop in the middle of a corn field that pulled business from metro areas because not of price, but because we were good. 

 

And you aren't the typical buyer, either.  And it isn't all about service.  I value your points and feel this to be a healthy discussion.  If you are going to get upset over it, I am out.  I have a pretty deep understanding about the industry and if that is valuable in anyone's mind, I will let the experts ramble on.  Service is important.  But the example of great price, great sales staff and shit service and ASSUMING another dealer has average sales as opposed to "great", but has better rankings on the other aspects, it is obvious which is better.  Whatever the decision a buyer makes, I only want people to understand that while you feel techs at shops are shit, dealers are charging too much and that there are too many average or lower level sales people, there are actually dealers that have BETTER techs by a landslide, have amazing sales staff and employees and are great to deal with and value their customer base.  And to be factual, I have more in that regard than less...

[smccrory]

In my defense, I will only take a bike into a dealer for service when all else fails. And I mean all else, unless it's under warranty, and even then I'm very leery.

This is because every dealership I've ever encountered has only hired the cheapest, most under-qualified "technicians" that they can find.

 

Personal bike service hierarchy:

1. Me, unless I can't

2. Hoblick, unless he can't

3. Cry a little, drink a little, and reconsider #1

4. Call the shop

[Moto-Brian]

In my defense, I will only take a bike into a dealer for service when all else fails. And I mean all else, unless it's under warranty, and even then I'm very leery.

This is because every dealership I've ever encountered has only hired the cheapest, most under-qualified "technicians" that they can find.

 

 

As an example of a local dealer, Iron Pony has some of the best techs in the Columbus area.  As a whole and the way they are measured, they have some of the best techs.  Period.  This is based on the return level, their efficiency and training.  The CSI scores are also showing this to be true.  But, if only 30% of the market is having their bikes serviced, guess it is a moot point.

 

And I am not busting Hob;s balls over the 70% comment.  But, it isn't that high and it certainly is not a fact that dealers have shit techs.  Are there issues out there?  Sure.  But that's on anything.  But there are a lot of good out there also.  The issue I have is that the painted picture is such that dealers are scam artists and rip people off.  They are also viewed to have poor techs and stealing your money by the rates they charge.  If they had a double car garage and a hand full of tools, sure.  They could charge you less.  There is a LOT surrounding prices and the things dealerships charge. 

[Hoblick]

But I've been around more dealers than anyone on the site, I have probably worked at a dealership longer than anyone on the site and I also know what reality is in terms of service.  Yes, guys like yourself that do quality work are great and numerous people go to techs like yourself.  But, I can promise that 70% aren't going to guys like yourself.  If they were (I can tell you for example how many people bought motorcycles in Ohio and even your area), you'd be doing it full time.

 

The point I am making is that of the thousands of thousands of people that buy motorcycles, more get their bikes serviced at the dealer level than those that do not.  We sell 10k bikes in North America.  You are saying that 7k have them serviced at places other than the dealer.  That is simply not true.  Also, of the near 10k members here, I can almost bet that the number isn't 70%.

 

You then take into account the fact that bikes today are needing more and more electronic work done and guys like yourself do not have that equipment...  So, they HAVE to go to the dealer for that...  Yes, older stuff is a different story.  And several dealers will not accept older year units. 

 

As far as not being normal, you are right.  But, I have experience and talk to a LOT more riders and motorcyclists than normal also.  I also have eyes on things like CSI scores and what the customer wants when they buy a new or used motorcycle.  The data that I am looking at is usually not ever available to the general public.  So, when I speak about it, it typically is from data that I have seen or from past and current experiences. 

 

Again, I think that customers look at customer service and overall experience with a lot of thought.  For an example like Ducati, price is sooooo further down the scale than the average.  But, because I work for that company doesn't mean I don't know about other brands.  I worked in the MX industry and I can promise you that price is ALL that matters.  I have also worked at a shop in the middle of a corn field that pulled business from metro areas because not of price, but because we were good. 

 

And you aren't the typical buyer, either.  And it isn't all about service.  I value your points and feel this to be a healthy discussion.  If you are going to get upset over it, I am out.  I have a pretty deep understanding about the industry and if that is valuable in anyone's mind, I will let the experts ramble on.  Service is important.  But the example of great price, great sales staff and shit service and ASSUMING another dealer has average sales as opposed to "great", but has better rankings on the other aspects, it is obvious which is better.  Whatever the decision a buyer makes, I only want people to understand that while you feel techs at shops are shit, dealers are charging too much and that there are too many average or lower level sales people, there are actually dealers that have BETTER techs by a landslide, have amazing sales staff and employees and are great to deal with and value their customer base.  And to be factual, I have more in that regard than less...

 

no getting mad here.  i think this is a good discussion as well.  and i agree there are dealers that have amazing techs, ducati indy would be one right off the top of my head.  as well as dealers with amazing sales staff, and like i said before, ducati and harley dealerships have the best sales staff, and best buying experience i have been to.  but high end products usually come with high end staff.  this got way off base from the original topic, but it is what it is.  not down playing anything you do, and you have been in the industry a long time, thats awesome, and you have tons of perspective on things.  and when i stated 70% i was meaning just on this site, and by that i mean active members.  id love to take a poll to see just how many actually use dealer service, how many have used it got burned and went to a private individual, people who have only used private techs, and people who do it themselves.

 

you have a lot of good points, I'm just seeing this stuff from my perspective.  

[Hoblick]

As an example of a local dealer, Iron Pony has some of the best techs in the Columbus area.  As a whole and the way they are measured, they have some of the best techs.  Period.  This is based on the return level, their efficiency and training.  The CSI scores are also showing this to be true.  But, if only 30% of the market is having their bikes serviced, guess it is a moot point.

 

And I am not busting Hob;s balls over the 70% comment.  But, it isn't that high and it certainly is not a fact that dealers have shit techs.  Are there issues out there?  Sure.  But that's on anything.  But there are a lot of good out there also.  The issue I have is that the painted picture is such that dealers are scam artists and rip people off.  They are also viewed to have poor techs and stealing your money by the rates they charge.  If they had a double car garage and a hand full of tools, sure.  They could charge you less.  There is a LOT surrounding prices and the things dealerships charge. 

Pony is the largest motorsports dealer, service, parts center in columbus.  they should rank the highest.  

i dont think dealers are scam artist or ripping anyone off.  don't know where you got that idea, nor did i say techs were poor or steeling our money.  

 

i simply was saying a estimate job was to be done, it wasn't done efficiently or in whole to satisfactory of myself or the insurance company.  so In my eyes they did not do a good job.

 

i do know that a lot of people have a hard time paying $80 - $90 an hour for labor.  I'm not saying that isn't worth it.  i know there is over head and all that.  but people don't understand that stuff, what they understand is.. 4 hours of work is gonna cost them $360  not including parts.  

 

[Hoblick]

btw  I heart brian, he can sometimes come across like an asshole, and have a few skewed perceptions,  but god love him.  he does know his shit, and he is a hell of a nice guy in person.

[Moto-Brian]

btw  I heart brian, he can sometimes come across like an asshole, and have a few skewed perceptions,  but god love him.  he does know his shit, and he is a hell of a nice guy in person.

 

 

Awww, shucks...  You too, man.  Good dude and definitely a great asset to this community.

 

The comments I stated about stealing and ripping off wasn't directed at you.  It is a common misconception that is very common.  You ask people and they will respond that they feel the dealerships are "stealerships".  It's common and unfortunate.  It is just simply a cultural issue bottom line...

 

You best be coming to the Indy track day after MotoGP.  If coming to MotoGP, I'm buying you a drink. 

[Hoblick]

Awww, shucks...  You too, man.  Good dude and definitely a great asset to this community.

 

The comments I stated about stealing and ripping off wasn't directed at you.  It is a common misconception that is very common.  You ask people and they will respond that they feel the dealerships are "stealerships".  It's common and unfortunate.  It is just simply a cultural issue bottom line...

 

You best be coming to the Indy track day after MotoGP.  If coming to MotoGP, I'm buying you a drink. 

i was supposed to be coming to GP, i have a hotel booked, but things are looking grim at the moment.  had a few things come up i might have to do

[MidgetTodd]

I like him because he sooner or later is going to tow me around Mid Ohio and turn me into the next big

[Moto-Brian]

I like him because he sooner or later is going to tow me around Mid Ohio and turn me into the next big

 

 

I can't add height, man!

[MidgetTodd]

I can't add height, man!

Toche