Bubba Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) The starting point of the schism you describe is the creation vs. evolution debate. Historically, there has been little if any middle ground in that discussion. You either believed on or the other. This is ground zero for science vs. theology. I understand your comment. I've got a friend who was raised in a fundamentalist christian family whose father was a minister. My friend attended college and got his B.S. and M.S. in special ed and worked with the profoundly handicapped in Hamilton County. He was an extremely intelligent person, and yet he truly believed that the world was only 7000 years old (approx) and that all the scientific evidence in the fossil records and the C14/C12 ratios were simply man's imperfect attempt to explain the world and universe, almost as if God was pulling a great joke on humanity by leaving him bad clues to the pursuit of knowledge. I've worked in science for my entire career and still don't understand why the realm of science and the supernatural must be exclusive vs inclusive. That the universe was 'created' by the big bang and that life eventually bloomed on earth and has evolved from primordial slime to the genetic diversity we see today is fairly well accepted by the scientific community. Why is it unacceptable for christian believers--or any person who holds a belief in a greater power, for that matter--to understand the story of creation as told in the old testament can be consistent with modern astronomy and current gene science? Or conversely, why can't a scientist wonder at the possibility that at some point during the eons of evolution, our human life form was imbued with an god-given soul and that our spiritual lives are as immortal as the universe is infinite? I wonder…. ADD/EDIT: Saw some of the post above. I DO NOT BELIEVE that christianity is THE EXCLUSIVE PATH to follow for 'salvation'….if I can use that term. Strength of belief in a power greater than one's self is something that leads to growth of the soul, whether you be Catholic, Baptist, Buddhist, Muslim, or other. As for a true atheist, I admit I don't know what will happen at death. If you are a true non-believer, you cannot believe in an immortal soul and thus, no life beyond death of the organic body. My guess, if this is your true belief, is that you won't be punished--merely that your lack of belief in immortality will come to pass and you will no longer exist, in body or soul. Edited October 10, 2014 by Bubba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 What happens to them after they die? Most would disagree with that comment. That isn't up to me. Only God knows what happens to them when they die. Maybe he will cut them some slack, maybe he will say theyre SOL. You're asking an impossible question to answer, so of course, there can't be one. Just because God is good - doesn't mean God is fair. My dad was a good man - died at age 41. Charles Manson is still alive at 150 yrs old, or however old he is. Sometimes people die for a bigger reason. Sometimes people die for reasons that are unknown to us. You don't have to believe God is fair to believe that he exists. You should definitely know that, since I believe you said you've read the bible cover-to-cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 That the universe was 'created' by the big bang and that life eventually bloomed on earth and has evolved from primordial slime to the genetic diversity we see today is fairly well accepted by the scientific community. Why is it unacceptable for christian believers--or any person who holds a belief in a greater power, for that matter--to understand the story of creation as told in the old testament can be consistent with modern astronomy and current gene science? Or conversely, why can't a scientist wonder at the possibility that at some point during the eons of evolution, our human life form was imbued with an god-given soul and that our spiritual lives are as immortal as the universe is infinite? I wonder…. This is where my beliefs fall. There is too much scientific proof to dispute evolution and to discredit the big bang theory completely. I believe those events occurred - but I believe God was behind them. I don't believe in a literal interpreatation of the bible. I don't believe the world is 7-10k years old. But I don't believe everything in this universe is an accident caused by an unexplained event. What was before the big bang? Nothing? Then what caused it? That is a question that cannot be answered, and I don't believe it ever will be answered because I believe it is outside the realm of human understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snot Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) Better explanations were given... Edited October 10, 2014 by snot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 That isn't up to me. Only God knows what happens to them when they die. Maybe he will cut them some slack, maybe he will say theyre SOL. You're asking an impossible question to answer, so of course, there can't be one. Just because God is good - doesn't mean God is fair. You don't have to believe God is fair to believe that he exists. You should definitely know that, since I believe you said you've read the bible cover-to-cover. I can quote dozens of bible verses that refer to God as just, fair, or impartial. There is no basis for "slack" in Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Damn. It must almost be winter…. ;o) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) I'm not in the camp of converting anybody. I stopped believing in ghosts and goblins some time ago. My decision to leave everything I knew and move forward without belief in a higher power didn't come lightly. It was a very long, hard process. One that didn't just happen because I failed some test of faith. The indoctrination that I grew up surrounded by was very real and paralyzed my ability to see reason and make my own decisions. Fear of dying with question in my heart was overcome with lots of "soul searching" and contemplation. Hell, I even tried different religions to see if I just didn't like being Christian. Turns out, I really do believe it's all folklore and has nothing to offer me, as an individual. Others disagree, and that's great for them. The world is hard and a little help is always a good thing. I just don't need it, nor do I want it. It doesn't matter to me if god is real, or not. He's not worthy of my praise.. and that's a fact. This is a great perspective. I'd say the same thing if your search did result a particular religion that worked for you. My path is somewhat similar. It's taken me 30 years to arrive at the beleifs I have today (for the first 12 years I believed what I was told). Edited October 10, 2014 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) I can quote dozens of bible verses that refer to God as just, fair, or impartial. There is no basis for "slack" in Christianity. Yes - but it's all in interpretation. I believe when people die, they die for a reason. God has a bigger plan than we can comprehend. What we perceive as "unfair" may be entirely different than how it was quoted. I think it's unfair that my dad died at 41, yet there's plenty of pedofiles alive in prison. I don't blame God - I believe he had a plan and needed to call him home. I believe God is fair to all his people in the afterlife - that doesn't mean he has to be fair to us on a worldly level. If that was the case, people would never experience trials and hardships in their life. The bible is full of people who are down on their luck and desperate. I guess we both just have a different perception of how that's interpreted. The "slack" comment wasnt to be taken literally. There is no answer to the question you asked. Nobody knows for sure what happens after death. It's not my job to judge or condemn a group of people and tell them they're hell bound. Only God knows the answer to that question, so I won't even pretend that I do. Edited October 10, 2014 by Steve Butters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Please list your sources for scientific proof that discredits evolution. Our universe didn't exist pre "big bang", but matter and energy did. It didn't come from nothing. We just don't know where it came from, exactly. Since we can't answer that question, we still hunt for reason and understanding. I think you misread my post. I'm not disputing evolution - I fully believe. Where did the matter come from, what was it suspended in, what came before that? What created that matter and energy? Everything had to start somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Sure.. maybe.. maybe not.. we don't know. That's why we should always question and not stop at "God did it." I apologize for misinterpreting your post. It's late, and I'm pretty stoned. I don't believe we should stop either. There is always more to be learned and discovered - the universe is infinite. I do however believe that they will never actually find an answer to how everything was created - because I believe the answer is God and not anything worldly. Just my belief - not trying to say I'm right and you're wrong, but that's how I see it. I think it's about time to get on your level - this thread is too much work. I don't know why I even jumped into it, I just got annoyed by the original post I guess. Nobody is going to agree, nobody is going to convert anyone, and there's questions on both sides that cannot be answered. It's just going to go round and round - it's a pretty worthless thread, and doesn't cover anything we haven't already covered on here 100 times. But hey - I fell for it, at least I'm not the only sucker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 It's just going to go round and round - it's a pretty worthless thread... Steve: I disagree--it's not worthless. It's been interesting and strikes a chord with everyone from believer to non-believer. We're human, and the one over-riding quality of being human is to question. I always learn something by listening to people with a different point of view than mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) ADD/EDIT: Saw some of the post above. I DO NOT BELIEVE that christianity is THE EXCLUSIVE PATH to follow for 'salvation'….if I can use that term. Strength of belief in a power greater than one's self is something that leads to growth of the soul, whether you be Catholic, Baptist, Buddhist, Muslim, or other. As for a true atheist, I admit I don't know what will happen at death. If you are a true non-believer, you cannot believe in an immortal soul and thus, no life beyond death of the organic body. My guess, if this is your true belief, is that you won't be punished--merely that your lack of belief in immortality will come to pass and you will no longer exist, in body or soul.This surprises me, and I mean that in a good way. I've not met many that share this point of view. Edited October 10, 2014 by Tpoppa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbot Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Scruit Posted October 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Steve - I am not expecting answers to my questions - I am hoping for opinions. I'm trying to understand the though processes behind asking for prayers as if prayers will actually heal - I'm trying to understand why she thinks praying will help. I am not an athiest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I am not an athiest.I'm not either, I just want the crack heads mouthy ass obese moms to quit praising the lord for their baby boy coming back to the living when clearly it was me that filled his arteries with Narcan and Epi while breathing for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx3vfr Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 Conversion is not a frequent occurrence. However, that is something I can respect because it takes conviction and can be quite difficult in some scenarios.My point is this. Let's say Christianity is the one true religion, but I happened to be born in India for example. There is literally less than a 3% chance I will believe in any form of Christianity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_India I've done nothing wrong, but there is very little chance of me having any meaningful exposure to Christianity. I may even have had a life altering experience that led me to search for spiritual answers, but all the local answers pointed me toward becoming a Hindu or perhaps a Muslim. Did the Christian God doom me with 97% certainty by allowing me to be born in India? Why was I not given the same chance to find the truth as someone born in a Christian country?I've never heard an answer to this that was consistent with Christian beliefs. (btw, not picking on Christians specifically, this is the same with most major religions).John 5:24 Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.They key here is whoever hears my word. It doesn't say what happens to those who have not heard the word of Jesus. But it certainly seems clear enough that if you don't hear about Jesus you are not automatically condemned to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx3vfr Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 The starting point of the schism you describe is the creation vs. evolution debate. Historically, there has been little if any middle ground in that discussion. You either believed on or the other. This is ground zero for science vs. theology. Recently I've heard some Christians soften their stance on this argument, saying perhaps God allowed evolution to happen. Not coincidentally, this "softening" seems to be occurring as overwhelming evidence for evolution is mounting. It's worth pointing out that nothing in the bible would seem to indicate that the word of God was hinting at evolution.That is because God is passive in free will of everything and it is obvious the earth is older than 6,000 years. I would be interested of someone would take the years it would take to figure out an estimate of world population using nothing but the bible until accurate census along with dates starts. There is no way the earth population could be 7 billion. And... Not even from 6000 years ago. They could start with Noah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTrainDriver Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I'm not either, I just want the crack heads mouthy ass obese moms to quit praising the lord for their baby boy coming back to the living when clearly it was me that filled his arteries with Narcan and Epi while breathing for him. God isn't forcing you to push the needle in and pump the oxygen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidgetTodd Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 God isn't forcing you to push the needle in and pump the oxygen.I have that same thought often, if it wasn't for the paperwork.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadTrainDriver Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I have that same thought often, if it wasn't for the paperwork.......... Amen to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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