hiro Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 Tiny technical details... My brake line needs to be removed and flipped at the master cylinder. Should I absolutely change the crush washers? Is copper better? The stock washers are 10.1 x 14.5 x 1.5 aluminium. Are generic 10mm crush washers likely to work? I've seen some that have 10mm ID and are only 1mm thick. A little off the Kawasaki spec. Already planning to bleed/replace the fluid since it isn't clear anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 Is a dollar worth risking your life over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimTheAzn Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, Tonik said: Is a dollar worth risking your life over? Is it really worth buying 1 used grip as opposed to just buying 2 new ones? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro Posted August 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Tonik said: Is a dollar worth risking your life over? No, so should I get "genuine" Kawasaki 49091-0001 washers like a good Kawasaki fan boy? What I'm asking is, has anyone picked up generic washers to find that they didn't fit quite right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 1 minute ago, hiro said: No, so should I get "genuine" Kawasaki 49091-0001 washers like a good Kawasaki fan boy? What I'm asking is, has anyone picked up generic washers to find that they didn't fit quite right? No, no one has done that because we know the factory ones are exactly right. And exactly right is the only correct choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro Posted August 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 10 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said: Is it really worth buying 1 used grip as opposed to just buying 2 new ones? Yes, because it would have allowed me to swap bars back and forth by only adding one matching grip as opposed to changing two, then needing to remove and re-install one if I changed the bars back. So, while it DID hurt to ask if someone just happened to have one laying around, it would have been very convenient. The new bars are a LOT different than what I was expecting, which is why I had a back-up plan. heh Since I just moved my existing grip, I still have a used left grip anyway! The right one is used, too! When I want new grips, I'll get them. I just wanted new bars, which I got. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro Posted August 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 13 minutes ago, Isaac's Papa said: Take it to the local Napa and get replacements. Kawasaki doesn't make crush washers. That's what I was thinking. I figured there wasn't some Japanese guy making custom washers all day. I guess they can't be flipped either since both surfaces need to seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 A Japanese guy is making them for Kawasaki per their specs. Some kid in China is making them for NAPA as cheaply as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer_kaw Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 Old crush washer and a dab of flex seal?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro Posted August 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 27 minutes ago, Tonik said: A Japanese guy is making them for Kawasaki per their specs. Some kid in China is making them for NAPA as cheaply as possible. Point, but I'm bad enough without going OCD! I'll probably get out my digital micrometer as it is! I do wonder if thinner washers could be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilD'oh! Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 Ohfercryingoutloud Tonik, stop fucking with the guy. He's right about the ones supplied to Kawasaki having to meet a certain spec and the NAPA ones maybe, maybe not, but we aren't talking about a fuel nozzle for a rocket motor here. It's a loop of metal the crushes to form a seal. I've used both OEM and off the shelf from the parts store. If you install it and tighten it properly and it doesn't leak once you get it all bled out and apply full pressure, then it'll be fine. It's not something that will develope a leak over time, in my experience. It'll either work right off or it won't. The question should really be - are you willing to risk additional down time if the cheap substitute fails on installation? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 45 minutes ago, PhilD'oh! said: The question should really be - are you willing to risk additional down time if the cheap substitute fails on installation? Excellent point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whaler Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) Dennis Kirk has a bag of 10 for less than a small value meal. They work great and fit as they should. I have sourced from auto stores and they are not exactly the correct size and won't fit into the machines recess on the master cylinder or some calipers. The auto store sealing washers have the correct ID, but OD is usually a little larger. I have had success with buying the multi pack which will give you two that are 10mm ID x 13mm OD. The typical Japanese supplied washers will be 10mm x 12mm. The larger OD will seal, but may not if you have a machined recess on the master or caliper. The outer sealing washer will be fine if larger, as it only needs to mate the bolt flange and banjo. Also it is a sealing washer not a crush washer. Crush washers do not typically have the strength to seal hydraulic pressure. Edited August 5, 2017 by whaler 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonik Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 55 minutes ago, whaler said: Dennis Kirk has a bag of 10 for less than a small value meal. They work great and fit as they should. I have sourced from auto stores and they are not exactly the correct size and won't fit into the machines recess on the master cylinder or some calipers. The auto store sealing washers have the correct ID, but OD is usually a little larger. I have had success with buying the multi pack which will give you two that are 10mm ID x 13mm OD. The typical Japanese supplied washers will be 10mm x 12mm. The larger OD will seal, but may not if you have a machined recess on the master or caliper. The outer sealing washer will be fine if larger, as it only needs to mate the bolt flange and banjo. Also it is a sealing washer not a crush washer. Crush washers do not typically have the strength to seal hydraulic pressure. I love you man. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxus Christ! Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Been using a harbor freight assortment of copper washers on everything from brake lines to drain plugs to oil cooler lines for the last 3 years. Haven't leaked a drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Made me look... Checked DIN 7603a, specification for metric sealing washers, copper. Wondered why there would be differences in sizes. It's because there are differences in sizes, lol. There are seven types of M10 copper washers. The ones of interest are 13.5mm OD, 14mm OD, and 16mm OD. The other four are thicker and go up to 20mm OD. And already have found "spec" washers that are other, being 13.2mm OD, sold as standard. Anything in a radically different size, is special to the application, and might have to have an OEM part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro Posted August 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 5 hours ago, CrazySkullCrusher said: Been using a harbor freight assortment of copper washers on everything from brake lines to drain plugs to oil cooler lines for the last 3 years. Haven't leaked a drop. I think I saw that kit on the way out yesterday. I think it only had two 10mm washers? (Went to get an automatic center punch. Worked well.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro Posted August 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, ReconRat said: Made me look... Checked DIN 7603a, specification for metric sealing washers, copper. Wondered why there would be differences in sizes. It's because there are differences in sizes, lol. There are seven types of M10 copper washers. The ones of interest are 13.5mm OD, 14mm OD, and 16mm OD. The other four are thicker and go up to 20mm OD. And already have found "spec" washers that are other, being 13.2mm OD, sold as standard. Anything in a radically different size, is special to the application, and might have to have an OEM part. I was mainly concerned about the 10.1mm ID and the thickness. How thick are the ones with 14mm and 16mm OD? Looks like there might be room for a wider OD. BTW, how does that old DOT4 look? (While I'm at it, would braided steel brake lines up front make much of a difference? Still have stock pads and I wouldn't call the front brakes particularly responsive or strong. They are good for not over-braking, but stopping quick requires s good squeeze.) Edited August 5, 2017 by hiro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSerfozo Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 I have 2 left from a pack of copper crush washers I got at Jeg's. Earl's is the brand and they're 10 x 15 x 1.5. PM me your address and I'll put them in the mail Monday if you want them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, hiro said: I was mainly concerned about the 10.1mm ID and the thickness. How thick are the ones with 14mm and 16mm OD? Looks like there might be room for a wider OD. BTW, how does that old DOT4 look? (While I'm at it, would braided steel brake lines up front make much of a difference? Still have stock pads and I wouldn't call the front brakes particularly responsive or strong. They are good for not over-braking, but stopping quick requires s good squeeze.) The 3 or 4 smallest OD of the M10 washers are all 1mm thick. Up through the 16mm OD. It's not what hydraulic fluid looks like that counts. DOT3 and DOT4 are hydroscopic. They can absorb water from the atmosphere and look normal when not. Brake fluid should be changed at an interval to avoid contamination. Brake lines should be changed at an interval also. Rubber and polymers have a shelf and use life of about 6 years. After that, who knows. Even new stock brake lines will feel better. Steel braid lines would be a learning experience to get used to them. Less flexible, more response. I've wanted to try some, but I never have. I'm over due to change my brake fluid and brake lines. Probably 15 years old. That's way too long. Guess I need to go buy parts now... edit: argh, I just found a variable specification that allows a type that is 1.5mm thickness, instead of the standard 1.0mm thickness. For the M10 up through 16mm OD. https://mdmetric.com/tech/DIN7603tdc.pdf Edited August 5, 2017 by ReconRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReconRat Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 And I'm still finding more OD dimensions, all of which say they are spec. Probably looking at various revisions from different years. Dang metric specs change quite a bit. There is a 0.2mm tolerance on OD, I think, so a 13.5mm OD that measures 13.3mm is still "spec". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro Posted August 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 1 hour ago, MSerfozo said: I have 2 left from a pack of copper crush washers I got at Jeg's. Earl's is the brand and they're 10 x 15 x 1.5. PM me your address and I'll put them in the mail Monday if you want them. Thanks! That will be an opportunity to test if non-stock washers will allow fluid to shoot all over my wheel and paint! hehe If the MC side is not recessed, they should work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro Posted August 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 1 hour ago, ReconRat said: And I'm still finding more OD dimensions, all of which say they are spec. Probably looking at various revisions from different years. Dang metric specs change quite a bit. There is a 0.2mm tolerance on OD, I think, so a 13.5mm OD that measures 13.3mm is still "spec". Why have specs if everything is in spec?? hehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiro Posted August 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 I was spying these brake lines for reference. What is the advantage/disadvantage (other than the price) of having two lines coming directly off the MC? Galfer also makes lines that split off near the middle. The stock lines split off at the right caliper. Does it make a difference as long as they are braided steel?http://galferusa.com/product/kawasaki-2012-ex-650-ninja-650-r-front-lines-fk003d496-2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motocat12 Posted August 11, 2017 Report Share Posted August 11, 2017 easier bleeding no t-junction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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