Charging upgrades ?

[Steve Butters]

My bike is a 2012 cb1000r (not the rr, it's the naked bike). 

I often have charging problems with the bike that I can't figure out. I looked on Honda forums and it seems to be the general consensus that if the bike battery is not exactly fully charged, the bike will not start. This model is apparently very sensitive. 

I don't know much about charging systems, but I know people replace the stator and RR on VFRs to solve these type of issues, so I'm wondering if that might solve my issues. 

The bike is kept on a battery tender at all times. If I pull it off fresh in the morning and ride 6 miles to the gas station it usually is fine to start after filling up. However, if the bike is off the tender for any period of time then I have issues. 

Issues only present on first ride of the day. If I can make it to the gas station and get it started again after, it will be fine to start and stop all day. Even had it at the drag strip which is constant starting and stopping. 

Distance from gas station isn't far, so I thought maybe it didn't have time to charge so I rode 20 miles to a gas station and got stranded. The bike was off the tender for 8hr before I left home that day. 

It's to the point now that I have no confidence to ride it because I always break down and have to go buy a new battery and install it at the gas station... The bike won't bump, but it's probably just me. Never any hills around and I'm not nimble or coordinated enough to push a bike 10 mph and then jump on it lol

Honestly, I love the bike and it's semi rare, so I'd like to hold onto it, but I just won't ride it anymore because it always breaks down.

Can someone point me in the direction of any upgrades I can do to the electrical system? I've been googling but I can't find anything for my bike. 

My options seem to be replace the battery once or twice per year, or just buy AAA and accept that I'm going to get stranded somewhere multiple times per year, which limits the distance I can ride because its expensive to tow a bike lol 

Maybe I'll just ride it into a lake. Piece of shit. 

Any advice appreciated. I miss riding but have a wedding coming up and can't afford a new bike at this time. Eventually I'm going to grab a gen 2 vmax, but I picture the Honda collecting dust until I die either way because I'm just too attached to it to get rid of it, even if it never runs right lol... At least it's pretty to look at haha

[motocat12]

I'm at a similar point for cold weather. I have a few old components left to check/swap out. But i'm leaning towards a mini jump start battery over another internal one.

[durk]

I had a cbr929 I picked up as a project once. It had a charging issue. I replaced the stator because it was fried. Bike still would only charge like 12.5 volts, so I replaced the RR. Still only charged at 12.5. I decided screw it and took the bike out for a 150 mile ride and it started to charge near 14 volts as it should. I did a lot of searching and found some people were discovering the magnets in the flywheels were weak or not working at all. They ended up replacing the flywheel  along with the stator and RR to completely cure their problem. I suspect that was the issue with the bike I sold. Guy I sold it to contacted me and said he was having issues after he bought it. I responded and told him what I had done and informed him to check to see what the bike was charging at. He never got back to me. 

If I were in your shoes I’d start by checking what the battery is charging at. At idle I’d think it should be around 13 volts at least then increase as you increase throttle. 

[Steve Butters]

I'll dig out the multimeter and get some reading and post back up later. Thanks for the suggestion of the flywheel, I wouldn't have thought about that. I can't believe I can't find any "upgrades" for these components... Should have bought the RR instead (actually should have got an fz1 instead) 

[Steve Butters]

1 hour ago, motocat12 said:

I'm at a similar point for cold weather. I have a few old components left to check/swap out. But i'm leaning towards a mini jump start battery over another internal one.

I haven't heard of this... Any more info? 

[motocat12]

To clarify, you keep the not yet dead regular battery hooked in but then pack this too. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06W2LRQNR/ref=s9_acsd_newrz_hd_bw_bLXhjn_c_x_w?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-3&pf_rd_r=DYBHXT544YPSM020RPS4&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=a6b3dd3a-5e3d-5661-9134-0d3384e34ec6&pf_rd_i=318336011

 

[Steve Butters]

Bike is fresh off the tender and the battery has less than 100 miles on it

Idles at 14.44 and nothing happens under throttle. 

It was slower than usual to start... Didn't turn over slow, just turned over longer than usual before firing. 

Not enough that it'd concern me on most vehicles, but slower than usual for this one... I'd be hesitant to go very far today 

[Steve Butters]

1 minute ago, motocat12 said:

To clarify, you keep the not yet dead regular battery hooked in but then pack this too. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06W2LRQNR/ref=s9_acsd_newrz_hd_bw_bLXhjn_c_x_w?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-3&pf_rd_r=DYBHXT544YPSM020RPS4&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=a6b3dd3a-5e3d-5661-9134-0d3384e34ec6&pf_rd_i=318336011

 

This is interesting I'm going to look into one... I tried jumping this bike a couple times off a non running  car battery  and always end up blowing the ignition fuse... I must be an idiot lol

[motocat12]

is the frame behind the rectifier hot after a ride? have you disconnected the negative cable and measured resistance in line while off? 

Is the battery 5 yo? yuasa?

Edited December 29, 2017 by motocat12

[durk]

8 minutes ago, Steve Butters said:

Bike is fresh off the tender and the battery has less than 100 miles on it

Idles at 14.44 and nothing happens under throttle. 

It was slower than usual to start... Didn't turn over slow, just turned over longer than usual before firing. 

Not enough that it'd concern me on most vehicles, but slower than usual for this one... I'd be hesitant to go very far today 

I’d say that it’s charging fine at 14.44. The fact that it didn’t change with throttle would not alarm me either since things can be different based on the setup of the charging system I’d guess. Hopefully one of the guys who know bikes better mechanically than I will chime in with an idea. 

[Steve Butters]

I left it running this whole time... Now charging at 13.28 and spikes to 14.2 under throttle and then back down to 13.2 

[Steve Butters]

21 minutes ago, motocat12 said:

is the frame behind the rectifier hot after a ride? have you disconnected the negative cable and measured resistance in line while off? 

Is the battery 5 yo? yuasa?

Battery is only a few months old.. 11k miles I'm on battery #3 

It doesn't really touch anything... I know nothing about bikes really, don't even know if I'm checking the right shit, but I'm pretty sure it's this module after looking online... Do you know? If it's this component, it's hot as fuck... Sorry to be so inept, let me know if I'm looking at the wrong thing 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Steve Butters

[Steve Butters]

And I know that battery is probably junk, but it was all I could get pre charged an drop in to get it home... The last one was a yuasa from riders discount and it lasted for less than 18months an 2k miles, so I didn't feel the need to go name brand again if the bike is just going to eat them up 

[Steve Butters]

Gonna leave it off the battery tender and check it again later too... The battery is brand new and the bike seems to be okay when it's got a new battery in it 

[mello dude]

Alright I'll bite.... A Honda with charging issues? No Way! (lol - j/k) I have fixed my share of VFRs, throw in a Yams and Zuks.... 

Anyhoo - this is my charger debug it procedure that usually points to what to do.... The drill.... as listed, you need to know your battery is good - first. 

Get out the multimeter (I see you already have done some) a go to town on this.... 

 

"The Drill"

Sorry for your electrical troubles. Well, looks like you gotta do…. “The Drill.”

Go through all your connectors for burnt leads, dig deep. Crispy wires? Not good. Your gonna have to fix that!  

Then---Go through this starting point quick list.  You will need a multimeter too.

Steps:

- Recharge battery overnite - then to take it to Autozone, Batterys Plus or similar to load test. -- Good? Bad? – An iffy battery can fake you out and act like a bad R/R. Buy new if needed. -- A GOOD BATTERY IS THE FIRST THING!

- With good battery fire it up, warm up for a minute or two.

These are R/R quick checks---

--- With voltmeter at battery get voltages -- idle volts? 5000 rpm volts? What’s the numbers? Should be in 13ish min idle and in 14s at revs. If in the 12s at idle, try at 1900 rpm. (It’s not unusual for the system to be in discharge or no charge at idle.)

- Check stator

- 1. Pull connector apart. Set meter to resistance. Check pin to pin stator side, 3 yellow wires, A to B, B to C, C to A. What’s the numbers? 3 separate readings --Should be less than 1.0 ohms.  (Engine off)

- 2. Check continuity from each A,B,C pin stator side to ground, -- -should be infinity - nada nothing. no continuity.  --   3 separate checks. (Engine off, again connector is apart)  -- Again, what's the numbers? 

- 3. Crank it back up. Do another pin to pin thing, but set meter on AC volts. idle and 5000 rpms. What's da numbers? Should start 15 -20ish and climb 50ish and more.  Again – 3 readings stator side connector and still apart.

- Repeat hot if you dont find anything wrong. Sometimes the stator will be fine cold and be a problem hot. 

(If you find the probem cold, you dont have to redo this hot)

 

 

Come back with your numbers written down... GL Steve.. 

 

[ReconRat]

Dang, that's a lot of batteries. It's not the batteries fault, not all of them failing. They aren't charging. (Or are being destroyed by a fault in the charging system. Are the batteries still good after recharging off the bike?) The one time I had that happen, it was a busted wire on one of the three stator pairs. Would work ok if the headlight was off. With the headlight on, it discharged the battery (failed to recharge). Also, if your stock charging setup is anything like my CB900, it won't charge much under 3000rpm. Sort of a standoff or slow discharge. Check your factory manual for specs on that. Odd issues I've run into... Bad battery ground at the frame, raises all sorts of issues. Corroded fuse box, hot main fuse and would pop when rev up in lower gear and let off.

I had one of those little pony booster batteries for backup. Can start a car with them even. The old style I had, was basically two more little cells in parallel, to boost a dead battery. Won't do squat for a shorted battery.

edit: And just for a wild guess.. if your battery, stator output, and various wiring connections are ok, it's probably the rectifier.

Edited January 2, 2018 by ReconRat

[TimTheAzn]

Had to do "The Drill" when my 675 stator/rec decided to go, twice. Wasn't charging the battery, and was a recall for my bike.

Time to break out the multimeter.

[ReconRat]

One more thing you should check for, and that's a short somewhere, that would consistently drain the battery. Unfortunately, they sometimes are often "moving" shorts, and can't be found at rest, with the VOM continuity across the disconnected battery leads with the key off. Try shaking wires to get a response, you should not see one. If checked repeatedly at rest, after riding, it might show up. Yes, I've had it happen. It would blow out the fuse for my dash lights and running lights on my car. Broken wire tapping frame. But, you're not having fuses blow out, so it's not a major short, if any.

edit: Back again... a hot variable open connector will do this too. Meaning, it's corroded or loose or wet or dirty, and heats up and fails after it's running and current flows for a while. Suddenly draws a LOT of current. Won't necessarily blow a fuse. Usually results in a slow burn. Melted charred connectors. Again, hard to find, must do a visual inspection of every connector till one or more is found bad. But most often in the circuit that is suspicious. Have even seen tiny burn holes in wiring, where arcing was causing a short. Typical in spark plug leads, after a bit of abrasion. Also spark plug leads arcing to wiring harness. And wiring pinched under tank, seems to happen too often.

Edited January 4, 2018 by ReconRat

[motocat12]

On 12/29/2017 at 4:26 PM, Steve Butters said:

If it's this component, it's hot as fuck... Sorry to be so inept, let me know if I'm looking at the wrong thing 

 

my only hot as fuck bit was my rectifier. I upgraded to the fah020 R1 one and it stopped turning my subframe into a hotplate but didn't fix my battery issue.  I also had shorted connectors melted together that also didn't fix my battery issue. I also had open ignition tail wires that didn't fix my battery issue. Actually I haven't checked the rectifier in 2 years to see if it's getting hot again.

[serpentracer]

check for any hot wiring too.  or throw a multimeter on it to read the resistance (ohms).  they should have close to 0.  older R6's would melt the connectors at the regulator.    I've seen guys relocate their regulators to a place that gets more airflow.  some I've seen put fans from computers on the. lol  it worked.  probably not in the rain though.

knock on wood I've never had these issues.  my 03 R6 battery lasted 10 years.  no shit.  never put it on a tender or charger.  but I had to buy one for my R1. it has a parasitic power draw and the battery is half the size they were in my R6.  so I zap it up every few weeks.

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by serpentracer

[motocat12]

https://www.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Thermal-Camera/FLIR-i7/

[mello dude]

Lots of times on Honda's the stator connector to the R/R get burnt up fubar causing a big mess of charging issues. That is a quick place to check for condition while digging in the guts. 

Agree with all above. If there isnt a problem that jumps out on the charging debug, lots of times its a little bastard moving short to chase. Bleah -- bike electrics suck ! 

[Steve Butters]

thank you for all the help!

I will be following the charging steps listed above, I just haven't had any time since posting this. I started school today and been partying way too hard for the holidays.

As soon as I find some time to do the tests, I will return with results. The bike isn't going anywhere (seriously) so I will definitely be back with some more info.

[Steve Butters]

3 hours ago, motocat12 said:

my only hot as fuck bit was my rectifier. I upgraded to the fah020 R1 one and it stopped turning my subframe into a hotplate but didn't fix my battery issue.  I also had shorted connectors melted together that also didn't fix my battery issue. I also had open ignition tail wires that didn't fix my battery issue. Actually I haven't checked the rectifier in 2 years to see if it's getting hot again.

Are they not supposed to get hot? mine gets burning hot, you can't even rest your hand on it. I saw you posted a thermal camera, but I'm not sure what the reason was. I don't have that camera, but I do have an infrared thermometer if you were suggesting I tell you what temperature the r/r is, though I can only assume the answer will be "hot as fuck" lol

[Steve Butters]

third reply since i can't edit my others for some reason...

I had no clue so many common wiring issues are out there with bikes. I am going to try to find a day soon to go over every wire for a visual check along with the suggested multimeter readings above.

Will post back up when I get a few hours to spend on the bike. Thanks again