Don 95Vert Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 We already have the software to flash the '05's - modding the computer is no harder than the earlier cars. As soon as the aftermarket comes out with parts - you'll be able to mod them. My old combo went 11.1/123 on hyper pistons, so they are not THAT bad.... The sky is not falling.... LOL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by Don 95Vert: We already have the software to flash the '05's - modding the computer is no harder than the earlier cars. As soon as the aftermarket comes out with parts - you'll be able to mod them. My old combo went 11.1/123 on hyper pistons, so they are not THAT bad.... The sky is not falling.... LOL!!! What he said. SCT already has CAN flashers (CAN is the next level OBD, and what the new powerPC, no longer EEC, fords use) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03STEED Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by rl: What he said. SCT already has CAN flashers (CAN is the next level OBD, and what the new powerPC, no longer EEC, fords use) Just don't put nitrous on it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razorback Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by Pony Pimpstress: I don't think that the pistons are as weak as everyone is making them out to be. A friend of mine ran a 250 shot thru his car on those same kind of pistons... didn't hurt them for a while.Nitrous won't hurt them like boost will. With nitrous it comes down to the sheer power as nitrous does not create pressure like boost does in order to crack the piston, and generally with nitrous use the rods will go before the pistons as the rods are the weaker link (the pistons will take more abuse). No one is saying you can't run boost on hyperuetectic internals...go for it at will, but it's a smart idea to keep it in the back of your head to have some money saved up as you never know when it's going to go. It may last years, it may last weeks...never know till it goes so it's a good idea to be prepared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03STEED Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 I was refering to taking it to Rob to have it tuned... Thier tuning abilities and nitrous = graemlins/nonono.gif At least on my car it did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by 03STEED: I was refering to taking it to Rob to have it tuned... Thier tuning abilities and nitrous = graemlins/nonono.gif At least on my car it did. I'd say it was more of a problem with the specific nitrous kit and a returnless car, something we COULD have tuned but chose not to because it wouldn’t have been safe for the car, but that’s my opinion. I wasn’t aware that you had an issue with our tuning, if you did I'd sure like you to call me and talk with me about it rather than posting stabs on the internet over an issue I hadn’t been made aware of. I'd rather not have our tuning ability called into question over a known mechanical problem, whether some agree it exists or not. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by Razorback: Nitrous won't hurt them like boost will. With nitrous it comes down to the sheer power as nitrous does not create pressure like boost does in order to crack the piston, and generally with nitrous use the rods will go before the pistons as the rods are the weaker link (the pistons will take more abuse). Cylinder pressure on a nitrous car goes up in just the same way as it does on a blower car, boost is irrelivent, think of it in terms of VE, both make the motor more volumetrically efficient, past 100% in many cases, raising cylinder pressure. "Boost" is generally more detonation prone than nitrous because it increases the intake charge temps, but they both raise cylinder pressure. Detonation is what cracks pistons in every case, a lot of mod motors will pull the wrist-pin out of the piston at high hp/rpm, however I've never seen one break a ring land or crack a piston without detonating. Detonation can also wreck rod bearings and break rods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razorback Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Well thanks for the info on nitrous. I sure learned something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03STEED Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Take it as a stab if you want but I was just stating the facts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by 03STEED: Take it as a stab if you want but I was just stating the facts... I understand you were stating the facts, however you make it sound like it was OUR fault that it didnt work correctly when it was a mechanical problem that we chose not to work around for the sake of your engine. It had nothing to do with our tuning ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMeanGreen Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by 03STEED: Take it as a stab if you want but I was just stating the facts...If you have a legitmate problem, speak with Rob or Don personally. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, post your issues in The Consumer Reports section here on CR and I'm sure a resolve can be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03STEED Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 As far as I know there are no mechanical problems. I've been running the piss outta of it all year with a wet nitrous kit and the same plugs still look new and the car still runs fine. I do definatly feel that you give me bad advice and you were able to do nothing for my car, thats the facts. I've talked to several people since then that said they can and have tuned wet nitrous systems on returnless fuel systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03STEED Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by Burst Knock: If you have a legitmate problem, speak with Rob or Don personally. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, post your issues in The Consumer Reports section here on CR and I'm sure a resolve can be found. Sorry, I must have overlooked that section of the site. I'll look into making use of it. Thanks!! Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by 03STEED: As far as I know there are no mechanical problems. I've been running the piss outta of it all year with a wet nitrous kit and the same plugs still look new and the car still runs fine. I do definatly feel that you give me bad advice and you were able to do nothing for my car, thats the facts. I've talked to several people since then that said they can and have tuned wet nitrous systems on returnless fuel systems. The facts are: Wet kits on returnless cars WILL work, will they work correctly? Someone who reads plugs might say sure. Watch one on a wideband and tell me the same because you can't. With a fuel pressure safety switch you get nasty oscillations that are NOT correct. With NO fuel pressure safety switch you get a massive drop in fuel pressure when the fuel solenoid opens, this is a fact. The EEC's feed forward PID controller CANNOT react fast enough to compensate for this immediately, this is a fact. The combination of the massive drop of fuel pressure and the feed forward systems inherent delay results in a lean spike; this is a fact that is NOT arguable. I can show you multiple logs of this. I don’t care who tells you otherwise they are wrong, this has been proven over and over again by the best tuners in the country (Jerry W, Brian@apten etc..) and we have logged the same on many cars. This doesn’t mean they CAN'T be tuned; they just CAN'T be tuned CORRECTLY. Now, can you run the car like this? YES. Did I feel comfortable tuning the car and giving it back to you with this happening? NO, because it is NOT correct even though it may work. Will people disagree with this? I will promise you that most shops you call will tell you that wet kits will work, but I'd love to see one that doesn’t have a lean spike when it engages because that will never happen. Does that mean that we are lacking tuning ability? Well SCT sure doesn’t think so considering we train the new dealers and do most of their documentation. We didn’t tune your car on the nitrous in the best interest of your engine, we are not going to take a chance with a customer’s engine when the data that we have in front of us shows an unsafe condition. Whether it will immediately hurt the engine or not, it’s not in our best interest to take that chance. Another shop might do so, but we choose not to. Anothony, I'd rather deal with this right here for anyone reading the thread. smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03STEED Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Well maybe you should talk to Jerry again. Because I emailed him on the situation and even he told me that the lean spike would not likely cause any harm to my engine, only inconsistency's. With all of your training and tuning abilitys its kinda funny you didn't know anything about this before working on my car for 2 1/2 hours and then telling me you couldn't do anything for it. Its water under the bridge to me now.I feel it was a mistake I made and I've learned from it. No hard feelings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don 95Vert Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Hmmm... seems I read something on Stangnet a while back about the nitrous issue... hmmm... was posted by an '03Steed'.... http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=336469 The whole thread is good, but the interesting thing that '03Steed pointed out was (to quote): "I finally got in touch with NOS tech support and he confirmed there are issues with the system on returnless cars. What the tunner told me is right on according to them. He says they are working on a fix and are still selling the Noszle kit advertised for 96-04's. He says that even though theres a lean condition chances are its not lean long enough to hurt anything. But there is a CHANCE that it could break something." Charlie - if you had a problem, you should have called us, I heard nothing from you at all. Now you post in a public forum trying to ruin our business. I think we treated you with respect that day and gave you the best info we could from the best minds in the tuning world - I called Jerry and Chris during the tune and they said don't waste your time on it - it won't work right. Jerry's exact words were "you are f'ed" - and I've talked to him many times since and he hasn't said anything different. And it didn't work like he said, but we tried anyway. We did spend 2 1/2 hours trying to make it right - we could have just left the lean spike and let you go - in a 1/2 hour, but we diecided to let you know our concerns. Looks like that was a mistake. Because now you publically bash us. Another point, the SCT dealer's tuning manual specifically warns that wet kits like yours won't work right on retunless cars. If you are making you libelous statements based on what another shop has told you better hope they know what they are talking about. And you better have some good evidence when making public statements that would ruin a company. Just remember, sometimes other shops have an ax to grind. And I can probably can guess who it was that made the statement. Just look at his track record and choose your friends wisely is all I can say. Or keep reading plugs instead of wide bands and gamble with your motor - something we won't do. Looks like you knew that the manufacturer agreed with us - you said so yourself in that post, now you choose to bash us. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rl Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by 03STEED: Well maybe you should talk to Jerry again. Because I emailed him on the situation and even he told me that the lean spike would not likely cause any harm to my engine, only inconsistency's. Read what don wrote above. Pay attention to what Jerry said when we asked him what we should do with your car while it was on the dyno. Jerry's exact words were "you are f'ed"My point is, what we did was in your better interest, thats not a bad move on our part and 100% right of us to do, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMeanGreen Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Man, if only I had a "split topic" option tongue.gif No biggie, this is good tech info for mod motor owners running spray it seems. Have at it, guys smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03STEED Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 The info I got from N.O.S. was sketchy and since then I have talked to others at NOS that said the exact opposite and I never was able to contact the same person that told me the info I posted on Stangnet. But even the original person I talked to said it was only a "Chance" and that would be the case with anything. You guys said it wasn't a question of will it, its a question of when it will. I believed your info at first. Shoot, I even went through all the crap of taking the whole NOszle system off my car and selling it. Then I heard of so many people running wet kits with no problems and then getting the info Jerry told me I decided to install another system. Used it all year with stock tune no problems to mention. Like I said no hard feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razorback Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 03steed, just for the safety of your car I have heard the same thing about the returnless cars and the NOSzle system specifically. I know many running the NX wet system with no problems, but everyone I've spoken to about the NOSzle system (as it's the only really 'new' direct port nitrous system out for '99+ V8 Mustangs) say it has a dangerous lean spike when engaging as the pcm cannot compensate with regard to increasing fuel delivery for the immediate need of fuel when the nitrous engages. Just what I've heard from other nitrous users...I'd hate to see another V8 stang owner risk damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03STEED Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Never meant any of my comments as a "bash" Don. By the way, I run my n/a tune religeously when I'm not spraying. It makes a huge difference!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don 95Vert Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Sorry Charlie - It's easy for you to say 'No Hard Feelings' after you publically drug us through the mud. Can't say the same for myself though. Don't you have Email? Don't you have access to private messages? I AM saving this thread BTW. And if I remember correctly I gave you the option at the time of NOT buying the chip because the nitrous tune wasn't working, but you said you wanted it - we would have gladly chalked up the 2 1/2 hours we spent on your car to make you happy. Not too many shops will do that. I'll never tell a person who has an A/F trace like this (see below) that 'it's OK'. Can't do it. Someone told you it's safe - but that wouldn't be me. Maybe you think your car is running OK or maybe it's a time bomb, and I suppose there is the possibility that the company fixed the problem by now... http://home.columbus.rr.com/dlasota/dlasotaweb/nitrous.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMeanGreen Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by Don 95Vert: http://home.columbus.rr.com/dlasota/dlasotaweb/nitrous.jpggraemlins/wtf.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitrousbird Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I can't believe you used that NOSzles setup. The way it repositions the fuel injectors alone is enough for me to highly question it. THe looks of it are cheap. You could literally buy the parts and have someone tap your intake and do a real direct port setup for the same amount of money! The ONLY advantage I can see to this kit is you don't have to pull/tap the intake. But anyone that is running the amount of nitrous to require a direct port setup should definately be willing to do that to an intake anyway! I'll have to defend Don and RL to the point of if there is a lean spike, I wouldn't suggest running like that either. Being lean is the devil with nitrous, plain and simple.....especially with hyperpathetic pistons! My setup is most definately rich, but my pistons are still quite happy. But a nice, easy way to take care of this little lean problem.....run a seperate nitrous fuel cell. A 1 gallon cell w/ a small fuel pump w/ return line will handle all of your nitrous enrichment needs. Further, you can run race gas in it with pump gas in the tank. Sadly, I missed out on someone selling a really trick custom used setup like this for my car for a NICE price because I just didn't have the $$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razorback Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Originally posted by Nitrousbird: But a nice, easy way to take care of this little lean problem.....run a seperate nitrous fuel cell. A 1 gallon cell w/ a small fuel pump w/ return line will handle all of your nitrous enrichment needs. Further, you can run race gas in it with pump gas in the tank. Sadly, I missed out on someone selling a really trick custom used setup like this for my car for a NICE price because I just didn't have the $$. I almost went that route with my old nitrous system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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