Should Moto GP be concearned?

[Cleaner]

Came accross the following article relating to NASCAR. Is Moto GP in trouble of losing its funding from companies. Before someone brings up the obvious, the Global Economy is in trouble, not just Detroit.

Economy Putting The "Brakes" On NASCAR

DARREN ROVELL, SPORTSBIZ, SPORTS, CNBC, CNBC.COM, BLOG, SPORTS BUSINESS

Posted By: Darren Rovell | Sports Business Reporter

cnbc.com | 17 Nov 2008 | 03:27 PM ET

This post is from guest blogger Sarah Talalay:

With the 2008 season in the books, teams across NASCAR are beginning to issue pink slips to dozens of employees. The sport will stop testing at NASCAR-sanctioned tracks next year to save teams millions of dollars.

Sponsors have been cutting back or dropping out of the sport. Attendance at tracks was down nearly 10 percent this year. Yes, even the rapidly growing sport of stock car racing is being forced to put on the brakes.

Industry executives are holding out hope Congress will offer financial support to Detroit's Big Three automakers this week. Team Chevy issued a desperately worded release Sunday during the Sprint Cup finale at Homestead-Miami Speedway imploring the public—and asking the media for its help—to contact their representatives in the House and Senate about economic support for automakers that supply a number of the racecars in the sport.

"We cannot overstate the importance of this initiative!" the statement says.

All are signs NASCAR's in trouble. No one knows for sure how deep the employee cuts will go and what else might be sacrificed. Veteran team owner Jack Roush, of Roush Fenway Racing, has a list of changes that might occur if the economy worsens. He'd encourage track owners to examine ticket prices so more fans could fill the increasingly empty seats the sport saw this year.

White House: Help Detroit, But Not With Rescue Fund

He says sponsorships also should be examined to be sure companies are getting a reasonable return on their investment.

"Nobody I know of invests money or spends money that they don't expect to get a return on as a sponsorship," Roush said. "That may mean in the short-term the sponsorship values or sponsorship amounts will diminish some. If that happens, the teams will have less money to spend on their personnel and their preparation and tires and hotels."

With that in mind, Roush said it's possible three-day events could be reduced to two days. And races might need to be shortened as well: 600-mile races to 500 miles; 500-mile races to 450 miles, he said.

Sports Marketing Guru Tony Ponturo Leaves Anheuser-Busch

"And maybe a limit on the number of tires you use. They're pretty much unlimited on the Cup side," Roush said. "Limiting the tires, limiting the distance of races may become the next shoes to fall. It may become necessary, but I hope they don't."

Jim Hunter, a NASCAR spokesman who has spent more than 40 years in and around the sport, remembers when pit crews were made up of repair guys from auto dealerships, who changed tires on Sundays at the racetrack.

"Today, we have $40,000 tire changers, that's all they do. Jack men, who handles jacks makes $40,000 or $50,000 a year, who work one day and practice during the week," Hunter said. "Could it be done without that? Absolutely ... Some sort of correction is going to occur, no doubt about that."

[Disclaimer]

You want to make the sport cheaper. Commonize everything, and make them use PRODUCTION parts.

Boring as hell to watch, but really easy on the budget.

MotoGP would still be pretty good as factory cycle parts are closer to race caliber parts than production auto parts.

[e-flores]

i doubt it will affect any of the motogp or f1 guys for that matter as well, the problem that nascar is running into is that there fan base is diminishing and most of all the big three who dominate the sport may not have the money to run next year or maybe they survive this year but dont make it two years down the road, i wouldnt be surprised to see one of the big three drop out of racing all together. i dont think thoughts like that have crossed ducati suzuki yamaha or hondas minds yet.

Edited November 25, 2008 by e-flores

[Chrisoh]

That is one problem with NASCAR there really isn't any Technology development goign into moder cars.

All are Rear wheel drive, when majority these days are front wheel. All are carbed and I don't know of any car today that is. Body shape is specified by the rules. About the only thing that I can think of that could beneifit from it is suspension, but how much does turning left on sever banking going to thelp improve cars for normal road work.

Formula one is where the development is, and maybe if the MFGs run some in a SCCA, TransAm, Rolex type class they could actually improve the cars.

[Moto-Brian]

Japan has stated they are in a recession. So, they are tightening budgets across the board. However, even though marketing (racing lies under that budget) gets hit first, MotoGP can rest in that it is very much more a part of R&D than just marketing.

That said, I am sure budgets are being cut there, too. Meaning, changing some personel, lowering costs on items and services we never see anyways.

It will effect them as it will any other race series, but realize that GM, Ford and Dodge all made their beds a LONG time ago and are hurting. When the factories are hurting, they cut things that don't net them a huge return or are under the marketing budgets. MotoGP would be in the same situation if the factories were struggling. They aren't even remotely in the same boat as the big three here are...

They will be safe, but some things will get cut as usual when times get a little tough...

[Moto-Brian]

That is one problem with NASCAR there really isn't any Technology development goign into moder cars.

All are Rear wheel drive, when majority these days are front wheel. All are carbed and I don't know of any car today that is. Body shape is specified by the rules. About the only thing that I can think of that could beneifit from it is suspension, but how much does turning left on sever banking going to thelp improve cars for normal road work.

Formula one is where the development is, and maybe if the MFGs run some in a SCCA, TransAm, Rolex type class they could actually improve the cars.

Actually, NASCAR does help the factories develope and learn. It isn't as redneck as people think. Racing is a platform that allows them to test things other than what you describe.

NASCAR is strong and the fan base is solid. However, when major funding comes from a source that is running on fumes money-wise, they are going to pull back a bit and will greatly change what goes on in the series...

Formula One does have a bit more to offer in terms of technology and R&D, but here in the States, NASCAR is actually quite amazing when you look past the stereotypes...

The other series like SCCA, Trans Am, and Rolex are actually greatly supported by the factories. GM has really developed and justified their Green technology via the Rolex Series. E85 has advanced much more due to the series than what they could have done via print ads and TV. The series all have their reasonings and are all very sound in terms of developement and research. However, NASCAR is a completely different animal and things from that series actually have a higher level of importance than the others.

Plus, the return from NASCAR outweighs the other series TREMENDOUSLY!

[Moto-Brian]

All are Rear wheel drive, when majority these days are front wheel. All are carbed and I don't know of any car today that is. Body shape is specified by the rules. About the only thing that I can think of that could beneifit from it is suspension, but how much does turning left on sever banking going to thelp improve cars for normal road work

Name a car that is raced for R&D and technical developement that isn't rear wheel drive...

Carbed they are, but realize that the engine platforms are not related to the old 305s and Hemis of the past. The actual technology of the motors are closer to the Vette than they are the Mustang if you know what I mean. The carbed idea is to limit or restrict the cars in and at the Super Speedways and other tracks. It is a tuning device and allows NASCAR to better keep it more level a playing field.

Also, the suspnesion is certainly an item of importance and design. These aren't the same as a rear wheel drive Camaro like people think. Again, closer to that of a Vette than a Trans Am...

I think it is funny that people think it's all duct tape and mullets when you refer to NASCAR. Go visit one of the race shops in the Carolinas and you'll be amazed. I have a friend who developes and sells the equipment that measures and grades the COT cars. It isn't the old template idea anymore, but people still think it is as if they are racing back in 1979...

[Disclaimer]

Name a car that is raced for R&D and technical developement that isn't rear wheel drive...

http://www.nopi.com/nopims/dsp_news.php?vaid=1370

Ecotec development.

[Cleaner]

Do you think a drop in ticket sales could add an additional hurdle to slow things down? This past year at Indy, there were a lot of seats not filled (mostly due to weather IMO). But I'm assuming that this upcoming year some seats will be empty because of costs. I may not be giong next year because of the cost. Its not just the cost of the ticket, but lodging/gas/food ect. too.

[Moto-Brian]

http://www.nopi.com/nopims/dsp_news.php?vaid=1370

Ecotec development.

I was refering to real racing... My mom can drag race... She does it at every red light once it turns green...

J/K...

I was actually refering to what Chris was talking about in terms of a series. But, yes, drag racing is definately a source for certain R&D, but doesn't have the pull other series mentioned do.

[Moto-Brian]

Do you think a drop in ticket sales could add an additional hurdle to slow things down? This past year at Indy, there were a lot of seats not filled (mostly due to weather IMO). But I'm assuming that this upcoming year some seats will be empty because of costs. I may not be giong next year because of the cost. Its not just the cost of the ticket, but lodging/gas/food ect. too.

If you are refering to MotoGP at Indy, remember that typically, they get multiple thousands of spectators for Indy and Brickyard events. 100k of folks will look like it is empty...

I think Indy MotoGP was pretty damn good. It blew Laguna away and seeing that the presence of all the factories and such are in CA, that's saying a lot.

I think it will actually be better next year. The Indy folks know the system and know how to handle things concerning large crowds. If the weather is shit again, it may fall, but if it doesn't, I suspect that 150k is possible...

[kawi kid]

go to a nascar event and look around and try to tell me its slowing down. sure as hell dont seem like it.

[Cleaner]

If you are refering to MotoGP at Indy, remember that typically, they get multiple thousands of spectators for Indy and Brickyard events. 100k of folks will look like it is empty...

I think Indy MotoGP was pretty damn good. It blew Laguna away and seeing that the presence of all the factories and such are in CA, that's saying a lot.

I think it will actually be better next year. The Indy folks know the system and know how to handle things concerning large crowds. If the weather is shit again, it may fall, but if it doesn't, I suspect that 150k is possible...

It'll be a few weeks earlier next year so that could help beat the rain. Do you think that the sponsors may dry up for the lower shows such as the AMAs?

[Moto-Brian]

It'll be a few weeks earlier next year so that could help beat the rain. Do you think that the sponsors may dry up for the lower shows such as the AMAs?

With Suzuki and Honda and seemingly Kaw stating they're not racing with the current rules and the fact that Suzuki has been calling tracks they support and telling them what they are planning, I would say it is so damn up in the air with AMA that your guess is as good as anyone's.

Sponsors are going to still want to be a part of a televised series, but honestly, the privateer teams and privateer riders are going to suffer more because they have lost the big names and factory teams... Well, Yamaha is the only one.

So far...

I forsee a rules change again. They really need to think it through on the homogolation deal...

[Fonzie]

I think what'll hurt NASCAR as much as the Big 3 goin' under, is that they're considered to be a blue collar, southern, motor "sport". So if a lot of their fan base is gettin' laid off, losin' jobs, struggling to make ends meet.....They're not going to be buying expensive race tickets or souvenirs.

The poorest of the poor won't notice much of a difference, as they said about that segment during the Great Depression, but the lower middle class will!

[Earache]

It'll be a few weeks earlier next year so that could help beat the rain.

The rain was a total fluke- how were they supposed to know a hurricane was gonna blow through town? Moving it up a few weeks won't make much difference weather-wise.

Lizard is right - Indy blew Laguna away as far as attendance goes. Laguna has about 40,000 on race day and Indy did 97,000 or so. And that was with crap weather. SHould be up at least another 25,000 or so for next year if the weather is good.

Indy does these events the right way - loads of things scheduled to do, etc. They have more experience than just about anywhere with large crowds for racing. Laguna sucks dog balls for traffic - took me 4 hours to just get oit of my parking spot at the '06 MotoGP there. They had like 6 portolets for the entire track, very few food vendors and dirt to sit in. Swore I'd never go back.

[Chrisoh]

Yeah NASCAR can be R&D on the engines as they are run in the upper range for 500 miles. But the point I was hinting at that I should have just said is that the Rules that try to make it even level are not a good platform to test break throughs.

It is a place where they can refine what is already known and in place.. Leave the Carbs and restrictors but allow the engineers room to experiement...

It isn't all down home racing (as the cars prove that) that some tend to think, and the fan base tends to resemeble. However the type of racing tends to lead me to believe that Road Course racing would give better R&D platform then purpose built, setup, and rule controlled oval racing cars.

IMO the NASCAR Rules tend to put a Downer on Innovation which is where R&D is.

[Cleaner]

The rain was a total fluke- how were they supposed to know a hurricane was gonna blow through town? Moving it up a few weeks won't make much difference weather-wise.

Lizard is right - Indy blew Laguna away as far as attendance goes. Laguna has about 40,000 on race day and Indy did 97,000 or so. And that was with crap weather. SHould be up at least another 25,000 or so for next year if the weather is good.

Indy does these events the right way - loads of things scheduled to do, etc. They have more experience than just about anywhere with large crowds for racing. Laguna sucks dog balls for traffic - took me 4 hours to just get oit of my parking spot at the '06 MotoGP there. They had like 6 portolets for the entire track, very few food vendors and dirt to sit in. Swore I'd never go back.

Wow, didn't know that about Laguna. I've always wanted to go out there for the race but after going to Indy I'm sure I would be disappointed. I know the weather was a fluke but I'm just saying that last year it may be the weather and this year it may be the economy and maybe it'll never take off like they expected. I can't argue with what you all are saying though. Just curious to see what you all think. I would agree with Lizard that AMA would be the first to be affected but its a wait and see right about now.

[Kip Drordy]

That is one problem with NASCAR there really isn't any Technology development goign into moder cars.

All are Rear wheel drive, when majority these days are front wheel. All are carbed and I don't know of any car today that is. Body shape is specified by the rules. About the only thing that I can think of that could beneifit from it is suspension, but how much does turning left on sever banking going to thelp improve cars for normal road work.

Formula one is where the development is, and maybe if the MFGs run some in a SCCA, TransAm, Rolex type class they could actually improve the cars.

+1

Actually, NASCAR does help the factories develope and learn.

Plus, the return from NASCAR outweighs the other series TREMENDOUSLY!

First part is accurate to a point. The second, is completely unjustified unless we're merely talking about revenue.

Name a car that is raced for R&D and technical developement that isn't rear wheel drive...

Carbed they are, but realize that the engine platforms are not related to the old 305s and Hemis of the past. The actual technology of the motors are closer to the Vette than they are the Mustang if you know what I mean. The carbed idea is to limit or restrict the cars in and at the Super Speedways and other tracks. It is a tuning device and allows NASCAR to better keep it more level a playing field.

Also, the suspnesion is certainly an item of importance and design. These aren't the same as a rear wheel drive Camaro like people think. Again, closer to that of a Vette than a Trans Am...

I think it is funny that people think it's all duct tape and mullets when you refer to NASCAR. Go visit one of the race shops in the Carolinas and you'll be amazed. I have a friend who developes and sells the equipment that measures and grades the COT cars. It isn't the old template idea anymore, but people still think it is as if they are racing back in 1979...

While the actual development of the car is modernized, the actual car itself is still a relic. I read an article that interviewed an owner of a NASCAR team and he said that if he were to lay off his mechanics, some of them wouldn't be able to find jobs because they wouldn't know how to work on a modern car.

The suspension R&D from these cars is completely useless because they use a rear end that is more similar to a 50's pickup than to anything being seen on the road, including modern pickups!

go to a nascar event and look around and try to tell me its slowing down. sure as hell dont seem like it.

The sport is was starting to slow down over year ago, the problem is the over-saturation of the market. NASCAR has infiltrated every facet of American life it seems. So while still huge they are loosing certain market positions little by little. All that means is that there might not be anymore NASCAR toothpaste, toilet paper and shit like that anymore. Big deal right.

Now actually loosing support of major sponsorship, factory backing, or other financial help due to lack of money is a big problem.

Yeah NASCAR can be R&D on the engines as they are run in the upper range for 500 miles. But the point I was hinting at that I should have just said is that the Rules that try to make it even level are not a good platform to test break throughs.

It is a place where they can refine what is already known and in place.. Leave the Carbs and restrictors but allow the engineers room to experiement...

It isn't all down home racing (as the cars prove that) that some tend to think, and the fan base tends to resemeble. However the type of racing tends to lead me to believe that Road Course racing would give better R&D platform then purpose built, setup, and rule controlled oval racing cars.

IMO the NASCAR Rules tend to put a Downer on Innovation which is where R&D is.

A huge +1

I'm beating a dead horse, but just look at the development of F1 over the same time span as NASCAR. It's like night and day. Even series like DTM, or Speed Touring-Car Championship provide more useful data than NASCAR ever will. Shit, the old Can Am cars of the 70's were tech marvels next to the COT.

The fact of the matter is NASCAR teams can try to dress up a turd all they like but at the end of the day it's still a turd.

[John]

the thing about the nascar rules is that they want as even of a playing field as possible. i think nascar is much more about entertainment than it is as a development platform for automakers. i think they want it to be more of a showcase for the driver, rather than a showcase for R&D engineers. the rules are in place to level the playing field, and to help reduce the cost of running a team, so that your smaller teams like the wood brothers dont get forced out by joe gibbs and rick hendrik.

nascar wants their races to be competitive. and for the most part they are VERY competitive IMO. probably 20 drivers out of the field of 43 have a legitimate shot at winning each weekend.

[Moto-Brian]

Yeah NASCAR can be R&D on the engines as they are run in the upper range for 500 miles. But the point I was hinting at that I should have just said is that the Rules that try to make it even level are not a good platform to test break throughs.

It is a place where they can refine what is already known and in place.. Leave the Carbs and restrictors but allow the engineers room to experiement...

It isn't all down home racing (as the cars prove that) that some tend to think, and the fan base tends to resemeble. However the type of racing tends to lead me to believe that Road Course racing would give better R&D platform then purpose built, setup, and rule controlled oval racing cars.

IMO the NASCAR Rules tend to put a Downer on Innovation which is where R&D is.

Again, you're wrong about your thought towards this. I am meaning that in a nice way to not offend, but let me tell you it is a LOT of R&D and it does a LOT of trickle down into the car world - even outside the big 3 and US market...

[Moto-Brian]

+1

First part is accurate to a point. The second, is completely unjustified unless we're merely talking about revenue.

While the actual development of the car is modernized, the actual car itself is still a relic. I read an article that interviewed an owner of a NASCAR team and he said that if he were to lay off his mechanics, some of them wouldn't be able to find jobs because they wouldn't know how to work on a modern car.

The suspension R&D from these cars is completely useless because they use a rear end that is more similar to a 50's pickup than to anything being seen on the road, including modern pickups!

The sport is was starting to slow down over year ago, the problem is the over-saturation of the market. NASCAR has infiltrated every facet of American life it seems. So while still huge they are loosing certain market positions little by little. All that means is that there might not be anymore NASCAR toothpaste, toilet paper and shit like that anymore. Big deal right.

Now actually loosing support of major sponsorship, factory backing, or other financial help due to lack of money is a big problem.

A huge +1

I'm beating a dead horse, but just look at the development of F1 over the same time span as NASCAR. It's like night and day. Even series like DTM, or Speed Touring-Car Championship provide more useful data than NASCAR ever will. Shit, the old Can Am cars of the 70's were tech marvels next to the COT.

The fact of the matter is NASCAR teams can try to dress up a turd all they like but at the end of the day it's still a turd.

Again, you are assuming here. There's a lot of technology in these motors and cars themselves. The chassis is not as technical as say an F1 car, but you don't have the things a Ferrari has on a Honda Civic.

Let me put this as gently as I can. I have family that is involved with car racing in both NASCAR and road course based stuff. If you think these guys are a click lower than a garage mechanic, you're getting bad info. A LOT of guys are engineers and top level techs that know more than you think. The suspension thing is also funny. These aren't traditional rear ends like you see on an F250 or such...

In the end, NASCAR gets a lot of people upset because they think it is Hillbilly racing and that the fans are drunks and live in trailer parks. Maybe so. Maybe a lot are - who can really tell. Whatever your thoughts, I can tell you this from a sports marketing side - a LOT of companies want to be a part of NASCAR. They do it right, they level the field in a manner that allows the drivers to excel. It's becoming a thing that is happening in a LOT of other sports. Spec tires, Spec rules, etc. are the rage in a lot of series. Even F1... The ability to level the field allows for technology to actually thrive and expand. It is also good for fans of course, but it goes well beyond what you might think.

Again, you can have opinions, but like I stated, I can give you some pretty good examples that aren't hear say...

The R&D on the motors is pretty extensive and not a junk yard special like you all seem to think. These motors are not anything like what is in your neighbors 89 Camaro... They are more related to the Vette series of motors which are pretty damn impressive...

[Kip Drordy]

Again, you are assuming here. There's a lot of technology in these motors and cars themselves. The chassis is not as technical as say an F1 car, but you don't have the things a Ferrari has on a Honda Civic.

Let me put this as gently as I can. I have family that is involved with car racing in both NASCAR and road course based stuff. If you think these guys are a click lower than a garage mechanic, you're getting bad info. A LOT of guys are engineers and top level techs that know more than you think. The suspension thing is also funny. These aren't traditional rear ends like you see on an F250 or such...

In the end, NASCAR gets a lot of people upset because they think it is Hillbilly racing and that the fans are drunks and live in trailer parks. Maybe so. Maybe a lot are - who can really tell. Whatever your thoughts, I can tell you this from a sports marketing side - a LOT of companies want to be a part of NASCAR. They do it right, they level the field in a manner that allows the drivers to excel. It's becoming a thing that is happening in a LOT of other sports. Spec tires, Spec rules, etc. are the rage in a lot of series. Even F1... The ability to level the field allows for technology to actually thrive and expand. It is also good for fans of course, but it goes well beyond what you might think.

Again, you can have opinions, but like I stated, I can give you some pretty good examples that aren't hear say...

The R&D on the motors is pretty extensive and not a junk yard special like you all seem to think. These motors are not anything like what is in your neighbors 89 Camaro... They are more related to the Vette series of motors which are pretty damn impressive...

You're misunderstanding me here, and please don't take this personally because I sense that this is a sensitive issue. Tell me where I said that they were hillbillies or used the work junk anywhere. Just because I don't know someone personally involved in the sport doesn't imply that I'm completely ignorant about it. NASCAR does employ very knowledgeable people, who take the sport very seriously, but at the end of the day they are working towards bettering obsolete technology.

Take my example of the suspension. They may use exotic materials, expensive name brand shocks and springs, but the overall design is very similar to what Chevy used on their light pickups and the late 60s. The best engineers may be working on making the suspension more efficient and better suited for their purposes, but in the end it is still an antiquated setup.

And that is really what I take issue with. Why put forth the time and effort to develop old tech when they could have the same excitement of racing with a different effort. Steel wheels? Carbs? Fuel cans? What the hell?How about fuel efficient vehicles, overhead cams, direct injection, diesel, non-leaded fuels, alternative fuels or how about actually putting the stock back into stock car racing. Why do they absolutely refuse to change their ways?

Edited November 27, 2008 by Kip Drordy

[John]

Why put forth the time and effort to develop old tech when they could have the same excitement of racing with a different effort. Steel wheels? Carbs? Fuel cans? What the hell?How about fuel efficient vehicles, overhead cams, direct injection, diesel, non-leaded fuels, alternative fuels or how about actually putting the stock back into stock car racing. Why do they absolutely refuse to change their ways?

i think a lot of it is to try to keep costs down for the teams, in an effort to try to level the playing field between teams... so that your smaller teams can still be competitive.

besides that, they still get 200,000 people at daytona, so i guess the fans dont mind all this "old tech"

[Kip Drordy]

i think a lot of it is to try to keep costs down for the teams, in an effort to try to level the playing field between teams... so that your smaller teams can still be competitive.

besides that, they still get 200,000 people at daytona, so i guess the fans dont mind all this "old tech"

The first part would make sense if it weren't complete bullshit. The big teams will still spend the big bucks. This isn't a cheap sport to get into by any means. Any racer will attest that 1/10s of seconds are the most expensive to get, and when all the cars are supposed to be the same 1/10 of a second becomes that much more important. NASCAR is burying its head in the sand if it thinks that prohibiting testing at sanctioned tracks will lower costs. All that will happen is the bigger teams will rent out tracks that aren't sanctioned and test there.

You hit the nail on the head with the second point though.