Hal vs. stock V6 on roadcourse?

[thorne]

shit, anyone wanna take on my little 3.8L N/A V6? lol

 

just read the other thread to, ogeretla, i have 3.8 V6 f-body that makes about 300 hp right now, ill take you in any kind of race you want any day. the only suspension mods i have are lower control arms.

 

Dig lets go @ kilkare

[thorne]

I want to road course soon, I need to decide what route my car is going

[Dr. Apex]

I'd take that bet if I could use the S2000, too bad the rules say I'm too damn tall so I'll be stuck in the Subaru. Matt, I'll see you up there next weekend.

[Smokey]

****RAISES HAND***** ****WANTS IN*****

 

you can show me how pitiful my measly little 240 crank hp car is compared to your beastly machines.

 

Or you can show me how horrible idea the rotary engine really was....take your pick.

[SpaceGhost]

Jones, 100 on Andy, I call your bluff!

[twistedfocus1647545489]

I think the original intent that spawned this thread is that it's ignorant to assume that because you have the Almighty 350Zed that it will outhandle a Mustang, simply because a Mustang "can't hang", not any actual pertinent data (or at least that's what it sounded like to me). Like someone else already said, what is it about a Mustang or a Camaro that makes them automatically not as good on a road course, besides an ignorant view? As for the part about Cobras not being stock... I don't get that logic either, but I see what (I think) he's trying to say.

 

I'd throw my hat in the ring to if I still had a car... but I don't. That being said, I had ( ) a nearly dead stock v8 powered GT that I would put up against a 350Z any day on a road course. I tend to be somewhat a a Mustang squirrel, so maybe I'm a little bit biased, but I learned a long time ago that making broad generalizations of a given car's capabilities without any more experience with them than what magazines have to say about it is an excellent way to find yourself extremely surprised on race day.

 

I feel better... Since the other thread was locked I couldn't pile on with my irrelevant, potentially biased view. Also, no one should get all "sandy in the south" because I used the word ignorant, it simply means you don't know enough about that particular thing to make a clear comparison. I'm also not saying my car would have been any better than a 350Z on a road course, merely that I wouldn't assume that because I was driving a Mustang I was at any kind of disadvantage.

[twistedfocus1647545489]

To be clear, you can substitute in any model of car where I'm using 350Z as an example.. I'm just making a point that I think applies to al make/model assumtions.

[SpaceGhost]

A car may handle well but if the driver can't "handle" the car, it will get beat.

[Smokey]

I think the original intent that spawned this thread is that it's ignorant to assume that because you have the Almighty 350Zed that it will outhandle a Mustang, simply because a Mustang "can't hang", not any actual pertinent data (or at least that's what it sounded like to me). Like someone else already said, what is it about a Mustang or a Camaro that makes them automatically not as good on a road course, besides an ignorant view?

As to the inital argument against the camaro and mustang on a road course I believe (not my comments) the comments were aiming at the fact that the design of the cars was not intended to be road course cars (in stock form). Generally the first thing looked at here is the solid rear axle.

 

On that point I believe you can make just about any car do what you want with enough time/money/effort. If you want to road race a Camaro or Mustang there are plenty of people out there doing it well. At our last Funday in my FD I couldn't keep pace with an American Iron f-body that was there. I could not honestly believe some of the lines that he was able to take in the car and hold. Never thought a f-body would do that.

[twistedfocus1647545489]

On that point I believe you can make just about any car do what you want with enough time/money/effort.

Agreed. That's mainly what I'm saying is that it's less about what car it is and more about driver, followed by proper prep, then way down the list somehwere is the power it makes/ what engine is in it. It really has little to do with what make/model the car is.

[SpaceGhost]

A car may handle well but if the driver can't "handle" the car, it will get beat.

 

Case in Point:

 

[sol740]

The ta/camaro and mustang were purpose built for a different market. Its simple, don't get "sandy", as you put it, because that's just the way it is. Of course you can build up the suspension, handling aspects of any car and it should perform well enough. Like Space said, it really comes down to the driver. Though here's some numbers to digest for stock form, all other things equal, those cars are definitely at a disadvantage.

 

 

For a direct comparison of the 350z vs a gt mustang go ...

 

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0506_compact_sport_convertibles_comparison/index.html

 

Or an STI and a GTO

 

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=105773/pageNumber=1

 

 

Compare the Skidpad, Slalom, and Braking between an EVO, a WS6, and a GT.

 

http://motortrend.automotive.com/39854/112-0411-2003-mitsubishi-lancer-evolution/specs-overview.html

 

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_9912_2000_pontiac_firebird_trans_am_ws6/index.html

 

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0411_2005_ford_mustang_gt/track_test.html

 

Driver mod is still most important regardless.

 

EDIT: fixed

[CRed05]

none of your links are working, except the last one

[hpfiend]

A 79-04 mustang can be made to outhandle a viper or corvette zo6 but it is going to be the most unpleasant piece of SH@#% in the world to drive for any period of time off the racetrack and cost a lot more than the car is worth. Hell you could make a yugo own a z06 in about any competition you can imagine but you could have probably bought 3 z06's in the end.

 

Reason being that it has a terrible front end design which features terrible steering inclination, terrible ackerman, not a true macpherson strut so higher than necessary spring rates are needed due to the distance from the strut to the spring, jacking which upsets weight balance, and I am just getting started. Not even close to a properly designed short/long arm front suspension with true macphersons. Switching k-members is just a band-aid.

 

The rear quadrabind setup is actually worse as not only is it a solid axle but lateral and horizontal movement is only allowed a few degrees until it binds, therefore the factory put ridiculously soft bushings in the back to prevent this bind so it is not only a bad design but a sloppy design, virtually no antisquat has been designed into the rear so it will lift trying to power out of turns, put wide tires on it to fix this and remove the quad shocks and you will get wheelhop, even with improved lower control arms, try to outthink the factory and take off one control arm for a poor man's 3 link and that one upper control arm mount will rip out of the floorpan in a short while. oh yeah drop the lower control arm brackets to "engineer" some more antisquat in for more bite- hello roll steer.

 

You say, mine is the cobra IRS setup so I dont have this problem- hah it is a VERY compromised design to fit within the 1979 platform design, while it is an improvement over the stock 4 link it is nowhere near a properly designed independent rear setup... There is a 1500 bushing kit from maximum motorsports that will make the IRS competitive but that compromises NVH which you dont have in a factory design.

 

If it was so wonderful ford would not have abandoned the platform finally in 05 with a true macpherson design though still not short/long arm and a 3 link rear from the factory over IRS even in the shelby cobra. Oh yeah unless you have a fox coupe with a cage the chassis stiffness is nowhere near competitive unless you take it down and seam weld it/structural foam it.

 

This is why I sold mine to get something to handle.

 

In case anyone wants to know putting the cobra IRS in a fox coupe is very doable and if you can swing the max motorsports bushing kit and shell out for the griggs SLA conversion kit you can have your cake and eat it too until you try to sell it. Tuning would be a nightmare as well as it is such a unique setup with little experience base.

 

My .10 cents on the matter.

 

the 03-04 cobra is about all ford could do with the old platform which is impressive from what they had to deal with but its not going to compete with a SLA upper lower front suspension, non-compromised independent rear, and 50/50 weight distribution with a rearward mounted engine or rear transaxle.

[Scotty2Hotty]

^^^

Kenny Brown suspension on Fox Body :nod:

[AudiOn19s]

At our last Funday in my FD I couldn't keep pace with an American Iron f-body that was there. I could not honestly believe some of the lines that he was able to take in the car and hold. Never thought a f-body would do that.

 

He was pretty quick....in a straight line

[Guest Hal]

Twistedfocus got it right.

[twistedfocus1647545489]

The ta/camaro and mustang were purpose built for a different market. Its simple, don't get "sandy", as you put it, because that's just the way it is.

 

No sand here. I was stating I'm in complete agreement.

 

Not so Ninja edit, for clarification:

The part about it making little difference what model the car is was in refference to Ogrelta asserting that a Mustang can't keep up with a 350Z on a roadcourse, simply because it's a Mustang. Again, that may not be what he meant to say, but that's how I took it.

 

I just get tired of often hearing things like "Yeah my Miata's not fast, but meet me on a road course..."

[hpfiend]

one more thing-

 

The f-body is worlds ahead of the mustang 79-04 mustang in the handling department with its SLA front suspension, 3 link rear, and wide fender openings.

 

The reason you see soo many competitive mustangs and camaros at hdpe events is that its a lot easier to drive at the limits when you are out 2-7K grand for a replacement vehicle to install everything onto. instead of 20-50K or higher. Take a guy where cost is no object in a better designed car and then you can compare cars to cars.

[Tinman]

I'd take that bet if I could use the S2000, too bad the rules say I'm too damn tall so I'll be stuck in the Subaru. Matt, I'll see you up there next weekend.

 

Have fun in the Subaru and pray for rain.

 

Be sure to stop by our paddock and check out the 30 day miracle Neon.

[sol740]

fixed.

[Tinman]

BTW, the point to this thread is to get those who have built or bought cars capable of accelerating, turning, and braking to actually drive them on course and take advantage of their car's abilities. I get tired of people on here bragging about how well their car handles but never actually experience it. It's worse than drag racing dyno numbers IMO.

 

So for those that built a high horsepower car for drag or roll racing but retained wide radials on all four corners and bolted on the latest and greatest in high dollar coilovers, it's time to put up or shut up.

[sol740]

Oh yeah, I bet you I out dyno you !

 

[MrMeanGreen]

If I had a manual, I'd be all over this. You know it, Matt

[Scotty2Hotty]

FYI, you can buy a preped mustang from the factory

http://www.fordracingparts.com/mustang/competition5.asp

I don't see Nissan or any other Japanese company doing that. Mustangs, Camaros, Challangers etc.. have been road racing longer than all the Jap junk has. Trans-Am racing for starters, cars like the AAR Cuda, the Boss 302, the Z-28 Camaro w/ 302. Just adding fuel for the anti-American crowd.