Religious/Philosophic Discussion

[Guest Hal]

Ok, I'd like to keep this out of The Kitchen. If you can't debate without insulting another person or their beliefs, just stay out of this thread. Try to keep things civilized and respectful. It could be intellectually stimulating (especially with Dr. Rick's absence) to have some philosophic discussions.

 

Here are some topics to get us started:

 

1: Does God exist? If yes, why do you think so? If no, why do you think not?

1(a): Can the existence of God be proven or disproven scientifically or logically?

 

2: How do you think the universe was created? (i.e., Not just the big bang, but what cause it)

2(a): Is there a sound basis for the theory of intelligent design?

 

3: If God exists as an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being why does evil exist?

[Buck531]

No matter how you look at it, this thread will not end up well.

[smokinHawk1647545499]

1. I believe yes. Something had to be there in the beginning, if there was nothing, then nothing could exist. without an intelligent being that was there before time, you have a logic loop to a point where you keep asking yourself what created the raw materials needed for the universe etc.

1a.. scientifically i dont think we are advanced enough yet to prove scientifically. Logically see above.

2. Not sure, I dont think we are intelligent enough to understand or prove how it was created, we just have theories. Impossible to prove.

2a. intelligent design sounds logical, as random theory does not seem to fit with the universal laws that are in place. If random theory was correct the same universal laws would not apply to distinct applications.

3. We have free will to do what we please whether it is good or evil (causes harm)

[Guest Hal]

No matter how you look at it, this thread will not end up well.

 

Maybe you moderators can keep it semi-clean? I know it's always a risk trying to have intelligent conversation on here, but damnit, I think we can pull it off.

[Guest Hal]

1. I believe yes. Something had to be there in the beginning, if there was nothing, then nothing could exist. without an intelligent being that was there before time, you have a logic loop to a point where you keep asking yourself what created the raw materials needed for the universe etc.

1a.. scientifically i dont think we are advanced enough yet to prove scientifically. Logically see above.

2. Not sure, I dont think we are intelligent enough to understand or prove how it was created, we just have theories. Impossible to prove.

2a. intelligent design sounds logical, as random theory does not seem to fit with the universal laws that are in place. If random theory was correct the same universal laws would not apply to distinct applications.

3. We have free will to do what we please whether it is good or evil (causes harm)

Rebuttal/questions:

 

1. Do we not run into the same logic loop with the existence of God? Anselm argued, essentially, that God is the greatest of the great. That would mean there is no higher level, no other creator. The problem with that is the question of how God came to exist without a creator.

 

1a. I have no rebuttal here. I can't say I understand an atheists scientific argument well enough to say anything yet.

 

2. Do you believe that God created the universe?

 

2a. With intelligent design, unless you are a deist, how can you explain the natural evolution of the universe? To borrow from Carl Sagan, "we are all the stuff of stars." Wouldn't the designer have created everything at once rather than making stars convert the rest of the matter in the universe?

 

3a. In that case, is God not omnibenevolent? Why allow evil to exist, regardless of free will? Why does a Tsunami happen? Why do "evil" things happen in nature, devoid of our will?

[Orion]

No matter how you look at it, this thread will not end up well.

 

0% chance of this going sideways.

 

 

Additionally, the only (other) intelligent thing that I am going to add to this conversation is this; We live INSIDE a coffee mug. We do not have the ability, or even the wherewithal to understand or even describe what lies beyond the coffee cup. Everything that we speak of that is outside of the coffee cup is pure conjecture, regardless of our belief in it.

[Nickey4271647545519]

Ok, I'd like to keep this out of The Kitchen. If you can't debate without insulting another person or their beliefs, just stay out of this thread. Try to keep things civilized and respectful. It could be intellectually stimulating (especially with Dr. Rick's absence) to have some philosophic discussions.

 

Here are some topics to get us started:

 

1: Does God exist? If yes, why do you think so? If no, why do you think not?

1(a): Can the existence of God be proven or disproven scientifically or logically?

 

2: How do you think the universe was created? (i.e., Not just the big bang, but what cause it)

2(a): Is there a sound basis for the theory of intelligent design?

 

3: If God exists as an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being why does evil exist?

 

1. Mostly not. If theres is a god, I dont think it's what we typically think when thinking "god". Why dont I? A quote sums it up. “By simple common sense, I don’t believe in God.” -Charlie Chaplin

1a. I dont believe it can (proven or disproven), and dont think it ever will be.

 

2. I'm not sure to be honest. I do like the big bang theory though, it makes more sense to me than a god like being.

2a. Not so much, at least not they way its presented from Christianity.

 

This sums up alot haha. If you somehow find this udderly offensive, tell me and I'll edit my post and take it out.

 

I have some quotes that I'll post later, that really do make some sense if you take the time to think about them.

[Not Brian]

0% chance of this going sideways.

 

 

Additionally, the only (other) intelligent thing that I am going to add to this conversation is this; We live INSIDE a coffee mug. We do not have the ability, or even the wherewithal to understand or even describe what lies beyond the coffee cup. Everything that we speak of that is outside of the coffee cup is pure conjecture, regardless of our belief in it.

 

Is it a mug or a cup? I'm already confused.

[2pointslow]

0% chance of this going sideways.

 

 

Additionally, the only (other) intelligent thing that I am going to add to this conversation is this; We live INSIDE a coffee mug. We do not have the ability, or even the wherewithal to understand or even describe what lies beyond the coffee cup. Everything that we speak of that is outside of the coffee cup is pure conjecture, regardless of our belief in it.

 

I agree.....

 

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

 

 

 

im

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

out!

[Guest Hal]

0% chance of this going sideways.

 

 

Additionally, the only (other) intelligent thing that I am going to add to this conversation is this; We live INSIDE a coffee mug. We do not have the ability, or even the wherewithal to understand or even describe what lies beyond the coffee cup. Everything that we speak of that is outside of the coffee cup is pure conjecture, regardless of our belief in it.

That's where the philosophy/logic side comes into play.

1. Mostly not. If theres is a god, I dont think it's what we typically think when thinking "god". Why dont I? A quote sums it up. “By simple common sense, I don’t believe in God.” -Charlie Chaplin

1a. I dont believe it can (proven or disproven), and dont think it ever will be.

 

2. I'm not sure to be honest. I do like the big bang theory though, it makes more sense to me than a god like being.

2a. Not so much, at least not they way its presented from Christianity.

 

This sums up alot haha. If you somehow find this udderly offensive, tell me and I'll edit my post and take it out.

 

I have some quotes that I'll post later, that really do make some sense if you take the time to think about them.

 

1. Chaplin's quote doesn't give any argument against the existence of God. What I've gathered is that you don't believe yet you have no logical argument about why not. If I'm wrong, please expand on your statements.

1a. Fair enough opinion for the scientific side. Why can't be "prove" anything with logic?

 

2. What caused the big bang? If a closed universe (i.e., everything condenses back into the center causing another bang), where did it come from?

2a. Intelligent design has been presented multiple ways by major theologians and philosophers. I'm not speaking in strict terms of Christianity (Earth is 6k years old!). Why is it wrong? What are the flaws in the argument?

 

I'll watch the Carlin bit, I haven't seen it before.

 

Edit: It's basically an attack on mainstream Christianity (more specifically Catholicism). His arguments do align with some of the arguments against the existence of God made by Philosophers in relation to evil. There are a lot of flaws with his arguments though, mostly that they're incomplete.

[verse]

Meh, my whole view on religious is that it's pretty far fetched. It's extremely hard to believe that a book, written ~2000 years ago, in a language no one understands is supposed to be something a "higher calling" basically had others put into words. If you tell one story to a person and hear the same story 2 years later, most of the time it's completely off what originally was said.

 

It's also hard to believe there weren't crazy people 2000 years ago. There are people around in the current age who say voices told them things. No one believes those people, why would I believe a book that has been translated more times than imaginable?

 

Ever seen the movie "The Invention of Lying"? Go watch it, it's a funny spin on religion, IMO.

 

 

Just for clarification I was a super Jesus freak from growing up until I was about 19-20. I've read much, if not the entire bible.

[Guest Hal]

Ok guys, you're focusing really heavily on Christianity as it has evolved throughout history. Try looking at the bigger picture of God as related to most major monotheistic religions. I should have set a more specific guide of what God is (conventionally).

[verse]

Ok guys, you're focusing really heavily on Christianity as it has evolved throughout history. Try looking at the bigger picture of God as related to most major monotheistic religions. I should have set a more specific guide of what God is (conventionally).

 

I understand, just what most people know and believe is Christianity. I think it's far beyond what we can really comprehend or understand. If the big bang created our universe, what created the matter that created the big bang? It's an ongoing theme in my mind b/c you'll keep asking what created that, what created that, etc. I really don't think anyone will ever know.

[2pointslow]

lol @ people thinking god creates natural disasters. Natural disasters are caused from one thing reacting onto or from another.

 

Everything that ever goes on in a religious battle can be argued both ways. There are always valid points to be made. This is and will be an ongoing thing because there is no hard evidence. All there is at this point is speculation.

[Mr. Jones]

I follow the FSM.

 

Have you been touched by his noodely appendage ?

 

Seriously:

 

 

I would consider myself an "atheist", yes I know it's a bad word in some circles, but hear me out.

I harbor no ill will towards those who wish to practice religion, and even encourage it.

 

The world would be an horrendous place without mass religion. Hell, it's all that keeps some people from raping children, and killing people every day.

Can't be all bad.

 

 

peace!

[wagner]

No matter how you look at it, this thread will not end up well.

 

Just another way to take out some of the trash...

[Nickey4271647545519]

That's where the philosophy/logic side comes into play.

 

 

1. Chaplin's quote doesn't give any argument against the existence of God. What I've gathered is that you don't believe yet you have no logical argument about why not. If I'm wrong, please expand on your statements.

1a. Fair enough opinion for the scientific side. Why can't be "prove" anything with logic?

 

2. What caused the big bang? If a closed universe (i.e., everything condenses back into the center causing another bang), where did it come from?

2a. Intelligent design has been presented multiple ways by major theologians and philosophers. I'm not speaking in strict terms of Christianity (Earth is 6k years old!). Why is it wrong? What are the flaws in the argument?

 

I'll watch the Carlin bit, I haven't seen it before.

 

Edit: It's basically an attack on mainstream Christianity (more specifically Catholicism). His arguments do align with som0e of the arguments against the existence of God made by Philosophers in relation to evil. There are a lot of flaws with his arguments though, mostly that they're incomplete.

 

1. I used the quote as an example for what I think/believe. Why must I have an argument? Most believers of monotheism have no more argument than I do.

1a. Logic does not involve rational thinking, there for it cannot be proved through logic.

 

2. Our universe was caused by a rip in another dimension- just pulled that out of my ass, but it sounds good right? Whos to say, we arent just an awesome game of SIMS on somebodies computer?

2a. Earth is 6k years old? What chu been smokin bruh? Anyways, I never said intelligent design wasnt possible. I enjoy mythology (“Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion” -Joseph Campbell). Most mythology is polytheistic, yes?. Yes most of it sounds rather funny and made up, but for some reason, its much more easier for me to believe in that than it is any modern monotheistic religion.

 

p.s. Have you watched Religulous with Bill Maher? He pokes fun at most modern polytheistic religions, and makes some good points while doing so. Also makes for some good laughs.

[Guest Hal]

1. I used the quote as an example for what I think/believe. Why must I have an argument? Most believers of monotheism have no more argument than I do.

1a. Logic does not involve rational thinking, there for it cannot be proved through logic.

 

2. Our universe was caused by a rip in another dimension- just pulled that out of my ass, but it sounds good right? Whos to say, we arent just an awesome game of SIMS on somebodies computer?

2a. Earth is 6k years old? What chu been smokin bruh? Anyways, I never said intelligent design wasnt possible. I enjoy mythology (“Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion” -Joseph Campbell). Most mythology is polytheistic, yes?. Yes most of it sounds rather funny and made up, but for some reason, its much more easier for me to believe in that than it is any modern monotheistic religion.

 

p.s. Have you watched Religulous with Bill Maher? He pokes fun at most modern polytheistic religions, and makes some good points while doing so. Also makes for some good laughs.

 

Not sure if serious. You're pretty much going in the direction I did not want this thread to go. The point is to be able to argue your belief without stooping to the level of basic insults (e.g., your comment about believers of monotheistic religions).

 

1. I don't care what you believe. I want to know why.

1a. I don't think you know what actual logic is. That's why colleges have entire classes dedicated to logic.

 

2. Seriously? That's what you've got?

2a. So you're a pagan?

 

I would appreciate it if you don't clog this thread up with nonsense.

[Guest Hal]

I follow the FSM.

 

Have you been touched by his noodely appendage ?

 

Seriously:

 

 

I would consider myself an "atheist", yes I know it's a bad word in some circles, but hear me out.

I harbor no ill will towards those who wish to practice religion, and even encourage it.

 

The world would be an horrendous place without mass religion. Hell, it's all that keeps some people from raping children, and killing people every day.

Can't be all bad.

 

 

peace!

 

Ok, why? What makes you believe what you do? Do you have arguments against the existence of God?

[V8 Beast]

Deep down inside I want to believe there is a god. My problem is that god may be an alien kid who made us as a science project and dooms day is a day after the due date.

[Guest Hal]

Deep down inside I want to believe there is a god. My problem is that god may be an alien kid who made us as a science project and dooms day is a day after the due date.

 

That's actually a really good point. There have been arguments that there are more "Creators" within intelligent design. It's been argued that our universe might have been a mistake (this lends credence to deism again). Pretty good point, Brian.

[airwg2189]

1: I personally believe God (or a God, not necessarily what the common example of God is) exists, simply because we have emotions. While I understand there is a scientific explanation for emotions, I don't see what scientific purpose they serve. Me feeling jealous because someone has a faster car than me does not help the human race survive, for example.

1(a): I don't believe God can be proven nor disproven, scientifically or logically.

 

2: God wanted to something to do, something to exist, and our universe was intelligently created, but with plenty of room and resources for humans (or possibly other intelligent life on other planets) to expand on their own. Life just seems to work too well, and there seems like there have been an awful lot of coincidences in the path that humans have had over the last millions of years to get to where we are today.

2(a): I don't believe there's a sound basis though. It's all too much for anyone to grasp or understand, scientifically or religiously. There are HUGE logic flaws and gaps in either case, I think.

 

3: I believe it is because God created the universe, but did not give it restraints. God allowed his creations to do as they please. Evil, as we think of it, is only natural. Similarly, is there much fun in keeping a puppy in a cage for it's entire life?

[Buck531]

Maybe you moderators can keep it semi-clean? I know it's always a risk trying to have intelligent conversation on here, but damnit, I think we can pull it off.

 

It's not so much about keeping a thread clean, it's more the fact that everyone has their own views and especially when a Religion or Politics come up, it never ends well.

[El Karacho1647545492]

I consider myself an agnostic. I came to the conclusion long ago that there are 3 possible ways for there to be a universal truth regarding these questions.

 

First case: There is no god, gods, or extranatural beings. This is not my personal belief, but its one of the possible truths. It does nothing to explain the greater mysteries of why we are here and how we got here.

 

Second case: There is a God, gods, or extranatural beings that may or may not interfere with us. This is also not my personal belief. I believe it is arrogant to assume that, if the truth is that there exist things that have power over us, that we are so special that it/they would care enough to interfere. However, this is a very good method to explain the mysteries of life and allows people to make sense of an otherwise confusing existence.

 

Third case: There is no being, but the deity/deities we worship are actually ourselves. This is my personal belief. I believe that there exists a possibility of some extranatural being that has a hand in our lives, but that it only exists because we caused it to exist by acting in a way as if it existed. I believe this because it is immeasurable, like so much of the universe. It presumes a certain amount of arrogance, but also an amount of humility.

 

My overarching belief is that, whatever the truth is, that in our physical state, we are not meant to know it. If we were, humans collectively would have figured out the truth and come to the same conclusion. Thats why I don't worry about it. If I'm meant to know it, it will happen. Maybe I need to die to know it. I don't know. I think, most importantly, that if we were blessed with the gift of life by an omnipotent being, we were not meant to squander that gift spending any time trying to figure out why or fighting with others over the hypothetical answers to questions no one has the unarguable answers to.

[V8 Beast]

That's actually a really good point. There have been arguments that there are more "Creators" within intelligent design. It's been argued that our universe might have been a mistake (this lends credence to deism again). Pretty good point, Brian.

 

When I pray I pray to myself because I know for a fact that Im listening. I know I have the power to make my life and the ones I love better. I pray to give myself power. I also hope that someone out there can here me. I hope they can lend me a hand if needed. I hope and believe but in reality who am I hoping hears me? What proof is there that a higher being has wire tapped my bedroom to grant my wishes? For that reason I am very spiritual but not religious. No crowds that share my beleifs.. Just me and my own thoughts.