Religious/Philosophic Discussion

[thorne]

I hate to correct you but there isn't any "HARD" Evidence for Jesus, Not a single shred of evidence other then hersay and offhand referances. During the supposed time of Jesus there where tons of Mesiahs roaming around the medateranian and all there stories where very similar. Born of a virigin / wisemen / all the standard sunday school stuff you already know.

 

For all of the "Miracles" Jesus performed why are there no historical counts of these events? If on the day of jesus's crucifixion the skys turned dark WORLD WIDE why didn't any of the great historians note this event? You would think the sky going dark in the middle of the day would tend to draw some notice.

 

Luke 23:44-45

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

[appn88]

Regardless of what I believe personally, historically I will disagree with the last part of your comment. The miracles and divine acts of Jesus cannot really be seen through historical sources. The problem is that so many actions were dramatized in historical sources from that time period. History as we know it (dry facts) didn't really exist. Even the biggest historians of that time tended to tell stories and involve gods (i.e., Asclepius's healing miracles that rival Jesus').

 

ok maybe not but their are things that hint toward it , if you look at the biblical account of the resurection, in the bible it says that women discovered the tomb empty, in the day of Jesus women were not looked highly upon and Mary Magdalen was even less of a reputable source as she was a prostitute prior, if the people who wrote the bible were going to lie about it dont you think they would have put a different source of person (people) to have found the tomb empty??

[Guest Hal]

I hate to correct you but there isn't any "HARD" Evidence for Jesus, Not a single shred of evidence other then hersay and offhand referances. During the supposed time of Jesus there where tons of Mesiahs roaming around the medateranian and all there stories where very similar. Born of a virigin / wisemen / all the standard sunday school stuff you already know.

 

For all of the "Miracles" Jesus performed why are there no historical counts of these events? If on the day of jesus's crucifixion the skys turned dark WORLD WIDE why didn't any of the great historians note this event? You would think the sky going dark in the middle of the day would tend to draw some notice.

 

Luke 23:44-45

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

 

Thorne, we have records of a Jesus. It's these records that we believe reference the Jesus of the Bible. I'd have to dig through my history books to find the sources but I'm sure they're out there on Google too. I should note that a lot of history is based on theory as "hard evidence" is generally evasive. There is so much interpretation that goes into sources, that we cannot be sure that each interpretation is entirely correct.

 

There is speculation that some of Jesus's supposed miracles were attributed to Asclepius. It's interesting to note that Asclepius was also supposedly a man turned God (this is similar to Jesus). So, primary sources that reference Jesus as the messiah apart from the Bible? There aren't any I'm aware of.

[Guest Hal]

ok maybe not but their are things that hint toward it , if you look at the biblical account of the resurection, in the bible it says that women discovered the tomb empty, in the day of Jesus women were not looked highly upon and Mary Magdalen was even less of a reputable source as she was a prostitute prior, if the people who wrote the bible were going to lie about it dont you think they would have put a different source of person (people) to have found the tomb empty??

 

In most cultures during that period, women weren't subclass citizens. The Roman influence was insanely huge and their standard of women was much higher than a lot of people realize. Want to see real power, look at Theodorah (also a prostitute per Procopios' "Secret History".

 

It's not usually a good idea to cite the Bible as a historical source. It needs to be supported by other sources to be accepted, in general.

[sol740]

I personally believe religion serves several functions, but these stick out to me.

 

1. As a comfort to the possibility of the end of one's conscious being, a thought so alien to most of us, that it alone can create a motivational fear-drive within us to maintain answers, logical or otherwise. This fear is compounded by the individual's roots in this earth.(family, purpose, power)

 

2. Religion is a self-prescribed knowledge that was perfected into a control tool, and a business, long before we as human beings were intelligent enough to thoughtfully test the natural, or seemingly unnatural occurrences around us.

 

With that I will try to answer the OP's questions to the best of my ability, within the constrains of my own fallible nature.

 

1: Does God exist? If yes, why do you think so? If no, why do you think not?

1(a): Can the existence of God be proven or disproven scientifically or logically?

God is such a subjective word, that it/he/she/them may exist in one form or another, and it would be foolish of me to say I know anything for certain. Do I personally believe in a God ? No. At least not in the way we are taught from an early age (generally dependent on what part of the world a person in born/raised in). I do not believe one can "prove" a god/deity/spirit exists as by most definitions, the entity in question is said to exist outside of our ability to test. However what I can prove over and over is mankind's ability to continuously fuck up, even the most basic of instructions(ever played 'phone' in grade school). Logically my inability to trust other men as a general whole, has subdued my likelihood of accepting an answer postulated either spiritually, or scientifically.

 

2: How do you think the universe was created? (i.e., Not just the big bang, but what cause it)

I haven't got a fucking clue, and if more people were willing to accept, that they themselves, have about as much a fucking clue as myself, we'd all be better off. True live and let live, which is a pipe-dream in and of itself.

 

2(a): Is there a sound basis for the theory of intelligent design?

Not if one hypothesizes a scientific answer to the question. Most of the so-called "evidence" for intelligent design can be traced back to an unscientific references, bias, methods, etc. I would prefer to be told it was pure faith and one's personal belief. Any irreducible complexity argument becomes an exercise in contradiction to one's own theory.

 

3: If God exists as an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being why does evil exist?

This falls back to my "man sucks" argument, which I hate to keep beating that dead horse but ... oh well, batter up. God allows evil to exist because theology must prescribe a reason for evil existing. That sounds like a shitty answer, but I believe it comes back to a question of free will. Free will, at least as it pertains to the Christian god, is a cornerstone tenet, as to be truly saved one must willingly choose to accept god as their savior and sincerely repent their sins. This illusion of freedom(which if there is a god that knows what you're going to do no matter what, and he is infallible, then it is an illusion) has built within it an allowance for "evil", or socially amoral acts(mans inherent sinfulness, imperfectness), which serves itself by redirecting one to the implied answer.

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God ...

 

At all times please remember ... that I'm probably, totally wrong.

[appn88]

I personally believe religion serves several functions, but these stick out to me.

 

1. As a comfort to the possibility of the end of one's conscious being, a thought so alien to most of us, that it alone can create a motivational fear-drive within us to maintain answers, logical or otherwise. This fear is compounded by the individual's roots in this earth.(family, purpose, power)

 

2. Religion is a self-prescribed knowledge that was perfected into a control tool, and a business, long before we as human beings were intelligent enough to thoughtfully test the natural, or seemingly unnatural occurrences around us.

 

With that I will try to answer the OP's questions to the best of my ability, within the constrains of my own fallible nature.

 

God is such a subjective word, that it/he/she/them may exist in one form or another, and it would be foolish of me to say I know anything for certain. Do I personally believe in a God ? No. At least not in the way we are taught from an early age (generally dependent on what part of the world a person in born/raised in). I do not believe one can "prove" a god/deity/spirit exists as by most definitions, the entity in question is said to exist outside of our ability to test. However what I can prove over and over is mankind's ability to continuously fuck up, even the most basic of instructions(ever played 'phone' in grade school). Logically my inability to trust other men as a general whole, has subdued my likelihood of accepting an answer postulated either spiritually, or scientifically.

 

I haven't got a fucking clue, and if more people were willing to accept, that they themselves, have about as much a fucking clue as myself, we'd all be better off. True live and let live, which is a pipe-dream in and of itself.

 

Not if one hypothesizes a scientific answer to the question. Most of the so-called "evidence" for intelligent design can be traced back to an unscientific references, bias, methods, etc. I would prefer to be told it was pure faith and one's personal belief. Any irreducible complexity argument becomes an exercise in contradiction to one's own theory.

 

This falls back to my "man sucks" argument, which I hate to keep beating that dead horse but ... oh well, batter up. God allows evil to exist because theology must prescribe a reason for evil existing. That sounds like a shitty answer, but I believe it comes back to a question of free will. Free will, at least as it pertains to the Christian god, is a cornerstone tenet, as to be truly saved one must willingly choose to accept god as their savior and sincerely repent their sins. This illusion of freedom(which if there is a god that knows what you're going to do no matter what, and he is infallible, then it is an illusion) has built within it an allowance for "evil", or socially amoral acts(mans inherent sinfulness, imperfectness), which serves itself by redirecting one to the implied answer.

 

 

 

At all times please remember ... that I'm probably, totally wrong.

 

if the God of the bible wants us to come to him by faith.. which the bible states then why would he make it possible to absolutely prove his existance?? it would not require faith by that point and most of what the bible states (new testament wise) would be worthless

[thorne]

Thorne, we have records of a Jesus. It's these records that we believe reference the Jesus of the Bible. I'd have to dig through my history books to find the sources but I'm sure they're out there on Google too. I should note that a lot of history is based on theory as "hard evidence" is generally evasive. There is so much interpretation that goes into sources, that we cannot be sure that each interpretation is entirely correct.

 

There is speculation that some of Jesus's supposed miracles were attributed to Asclepius. It's interesting to note that Asclepius was also supposedly a man turned God (this is similar to Jesus). So, primary sources that reference Jesus as the messiah apart from the Bible? There aren't any I'm aware of.

 

Actually before i posted my response i went to google and searched for.

historical proof of jesus

 

basically after reading for about 30 minutes I was even more sure of my stance on this topic. The most commonly cited historical proof is josephus which most scholars agree was forged.

[thorne]

if the God of the bible wants us to come to him by faith.. which the bible states then why would he make it possible to absolutely prove his existance?? it would not require faith by that point and most of what the bible states (new testament wise) would be worthless

 

Does it bother you that you follow a religion that stole its story from other religions ?

 

 

I for one welcome the day when Jesus goes the way of Zeus and Hercules. They where once though to be real gods also.

[Guest Hal]

Actually before i posted my response i went to google and searched for.

historical proof of jesus

 

basically after reading for about 30 minutes I was even more sure of my stance on this topic. The most commonly cited historical proof is josephus which most scholars agree was forged.

 

Like I said, I'll have to remember to look for the source(s). It's not the easiest thing in the world to find primary sources just based on a simple question as the answer is usually tangled inside another history or piece of literature. There aren't mountains of evidence, but that's rarely the case with ancient history.

 

If I can find what book it was in (it's been a couple years since I've read anything about Jesus) I'll be sure to let you know. If I can't remember or sold the book, it'll be a bit longer. If I didn't believe the information to be historically accurate, I wouldn't suggest it.

[appn88]

Does it bother you that you follow a religion that stole its story from other religions ?

 

 

I for one welcome the day when Jesus goes the way of Zeus and Hercules. They where once though to be real gods also.

 

does it bother you that your actually insulting me for my beliefs??? which was not the purpose of this discussion as said in the beggining???

[sol740]

if the God of the bible wants us to come to him by faith.. which the bible states then why would he make it possible to absolutely prove his existance?? it would not require faith by that point and most of what the bible states (new testament wise) would be worthless

 

 

If having faith is what you choose to do, then I wish you well(as we are in a weird way, actually in agreement). The problems begin when the "faithful" subject the "faithless" to persecutions based on nothing but their cosmic intuitions. The victims of 9/11 come to mind.

[Nickey4271647545519]

... most of what the bible states (new testament wise) is worthless

 

Fixed. The bible.... a great topic all by itself.

 

I believe that the moral teachings of the bible are a great thing. But the bible itself should not be taken seriously.

Why?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original texts were written in hebrew. Over the years there has been many of translations of the bible. Just in translation alone there is room for error. Lets say something doesnt have a direct translation from one language to another, well at that point it up to the translator to put it in his own words, there for creating a place to put a new twist on words.

 

I have another issue with the bible, they were writings by man. Whos to say that the bible is not just another great broadway show?

 

“How do you choose between believing in Jesus, Bigfoot, leprechauns, witchcraft, Island, alien abductions, the Tooth Fairy, gold at the end of the rainbow or the myriad other assertions that people have made over the course of human history? [Faith is] like rolling the dice and hoping you have placed your faith in a true proposition…However, if you are still inclined to place faith in an un-provable assertion, I am God, send me money.”

[Guest Hal]

if the God of the bible wants us to come to him by faith.. which the bible states then why would he make it possible to absolutely prove his existance?? it would not require faith by that point and most of what the bible states (new testament wise) would be worthless

 

If having faith is what you choose to do, then I wish you well(as we are in a weird way, actually in agreement). The problems begin when the "faithful" subject the "faithless" to persecutions based on nothing but their cosmic intuitions. The victims of 9/11 come to mind.

 

I actually really like this argument. Would the faith requirement really keep us from reaching a real answer? I like that thought a lot.

 

P.S. Pretty much every religion (i.e., the christian persecutions by the pagans) can be twisted into a motive for violent extremism. Let us not forget that the tafkir doctrine was invented to allow Muslims to kill other Muslim. This was based entirely on an opinion that was the result of the a Mongol occupation not a religious persecution.

[sol740]

I actually really like this argument. Would the faith requirement really keep us from reaching a real answer? I like that thought a lot.

 

P.S. Pretty much every religion (i.e., the christian persecutions by the pagans) can be twisted into a motive for violent extremism. Let us not forget that the tafkir doctrine was invented to allow Muslims to kill other Muslim. This was based entirely on an opinion that was the result of the a Mongol occupation not a religious persecution.

 

Yes, it is the "untrumpable" card.

 

Oh, and I completely agree. Just an example.

[Nickey4271647545519]

Does it bother you that you follow a religion that stole its story from other religions ?

 

 

I for one welcome the day when Jesus goes the way of Zeus and Hercules. They where once though to be real gods also.

 

does it bother you that your actually insulting me for my beliefs??? which was not the purpose of this discussion as said in the beggining???

 

“Mythology is what we call someone else’s religion”

-Joseph Campbell

[thorne]

Like I said, I'll have to remember to look for the source(s). It's not the easiest thing in the world to find primary sources just based on a simple question as the answer is usually tangled inside another history or piece of literature. There aren't mountains of evidence, but that's rarely the case with ancient history.

 

If I can find what book it was in (it's been a couple years since I've read anything about Jesus) I'll be sure to let you know. If I can't remember or sold the book, it'll be a bit longer. If I didn't believe the information to be historically accurate, I wouldn't suggest it.

 

Fair enough,

 

I used to actually go to church and read the bible, Being a nerd as a child I always tried to arm myself with the strongest arguments for christ. I had my own twisted version of how genesis and evolution worked out since a day to god is what ever the fuck he ants amiright???

 

One of my first topics was historical proof for jesus or lack there of.. Then I did the same for Muhammad and there is WAY MORE PROOF for him.

[appn88]

Fixed. The bible.... a great topic all by itself.

 

I believe that the moral teachings of the bible are a great thing. But the bible itself should not be taken seriously.

Why?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original texts were written in hebrew. Over the years there has been many of translations of the bible. Just in translation alone there is room for error. Lets say something doesnt have a direct translation from one language to another, well at that point it up to the translator to put it in his own words, there for creating a place to put a new twist on words.

 

I have another issue with the bible, they were writings by man. Whos to say that the bible is not just another great broadway show?

 

for one thing their are over 5000 ancient manuscripts for the new testament to go by, in greek and hebrew so the accuracy of the bible is not too questioned

[thorne]

does it bother you that your actually insulting me for my beliefs??? which was not the purpose of this discussion as said in the beggining???

 

 

My lil cousin still believes in the tooth fairy does that mean I should never publically state that the tooth fairy not real?

[appn88]

Fair enough,

 

I used to actually go to church and read the bible, Being a nerd as a child I always tried to arm myself with the strongest arguments for christ. I had my own twisted version of how genesis and evolution worked out since a day to god is what ever the fuck he ants amiright???

 

One of my first topics was historical proof for jesus or lack there of.. Then I did the same for Muhammad and there is WAY MORE PROOF for him.

 

i dont believe evolution works with the bible at all i believe it works perfectly fine all by itself (the bible)

[appn88]

My lil cousin still believes in the tooth fairy does that mean I should never publically state that the tooth fairy not real?

 

no but you were insulting my beliefs the tooth fairy is something for little kids their are BILLIONS of people who believe what i believe as adults

[thorne]

So instead of some long complicated answer to how something evolved you prefer the follow answer:

 

God did it ?

[sol740]

for one thing their are over 5000 ancient manuscripts for the new testament to go by, in greek and hebrew so the accuracy of the bible is not too questioned

 

It is completely, and totally questioned. Just not by believers. For instance the Bible speaks of the Jews being slaves to the Egyptians. The Exodus, is a major showcase for gods power, and goodness to his followers. However in Egyptian history, there is no mention of the Exodus, or plagues, or anything else in the bible. Believe what you will, but please don't say it goes unquestioned.

 

no but you were insulting my beliefs the tooth fairy is something for little kids their are BILLIONS of people who believe what i believe as adults

 

Lots of people believing something does not make it true. Lots of people believe in Islam, and Buddhism.

[thorne]

no but you were insulting my beliefs the tooth fairy is something for little kids their are BILLIONS of people who believe what i believe as adults

 

2.1 billion christians that's not the BILLIONS you so declare.

1.5 billion muslims

 

 

Here's the awesome part about my stance, It's based on science. It doesn't require anyone to believe . It requires you to understand .

 

 

if 100 people believe that slavery is ok does that make it ok?

what about 1000

what about 1million?

 

How many people have to believe in something for it to be true?

[appn88]

It is completely, and totally questioned. Just not by believers. For instance the Bible speaks of the Jews being slaves to the Egyptians. The Exodus, a major showcase for gods power, and goodness to his followers. However in Egyptian history, there is no mention of the Exodus, or plagues, or anything else in the bible. Believe what you will, but please don't say it goes unquestioned.

 

i never said it wasnt question i said it wasnt TOO questioned

[appn88]

2.1 billion christians that's not the BILLIONS you so declare.

 

Here's the awesome apart about my stance, It's based on science. It doesn't require anyone to believe . It requires you to understand .

 

 

science is a belief just as much as religion their are few if any absolutes

 

billions(meaning more than one)