Soldier complains Christian values forced upon him by the military

[Disclaimer]

There wasn't a 'religion' category to post this in...

http://www.pubrecord.org/religion/832-doj-army-soldier-who-said-he-was-forced-to-embrace-christianity-has-no-standing-to-sue.html

DOJ: No Evidence Anyone 'Affected' By Widespread Proselytizing in Military

By Jason Leopold

A U.S. Army soldier who was allegedly forced to attend fundamentalist Christian themed events and sued Secretary of Defense Robert Gates claiming his First Amendment rights were violated should not be permitted to seek relief in federal court because he failed to take his grievances to his superiors, the Justice Department said in court documents filed last week in response to the Army’s soldier’s federal lawsuit.

Moreover, the Justice Department argued that documentary evidence contained in the lawsuit that says the U.S. military engaged in a “pattern and practice of constitutionally impermissible promotions of religious beliefs within the Department of Defense and the United States Army” should be set aside because the plaintiffs failed to demonstrate that anyone was negatively “affected by the alleged” abuses.

Army Spc. Dustin Chalker and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), a civil rights watchdog organization that ensures the military upholds its religious neutrality guidelines, filed the lawsuit against Gates and the Department of Defense last year.

Chalker, who is stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas, said that on three occasions beginning in December 2007, he was directed to attend military events, one of which was a barbecue, where an Army battalion chaplain led a Christian prayer ceremony for military personnel. Chalker, who said he is an atheist, asked his superiors for permission to leave the prayer sessions and on each occasion his request to be excused was denied, according to the lawsuit.

Despite Chalker’s objections to being subjected to fundamentalist Christian prayer sessions, his Army superiors continuously forced him to attend other military events where the prayer ceremonies continued.

His lawsuit claims that being forced to “attend military functions and formations where sectarian Christian prayers are delivered is evidence of a pattern and practice of constitutionally impermissible promotions of religious beliefs within the Department of Defense and the United States Army.”

Under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution, government officials, including military personnel, are prohibited from using the machinery of the state to promote any form of religion.

Long-Standing Tradition

The Christian right has been successful in spreading its fundamentalist agenda at US military installations around the world for decades. But the movement's meteoric rise can be traced back to March 2003, the month the U.S. Invaded Iraq.

Since then, thousands of soldiers on the battlefield have told disturbing stories of being force-fed fundamentalist Christianity by highly controversial, apocalyptic "End Times" evangelists, who have infiltrated US military installations throughout the world with the blessing of high-level officials at the Pentagon.

The Justice Department doesn’t dispute the facts of the lawsuit. Rather, the Justice Department claims that the plaintiffs have no standing to sue the federal government.

Additionally, the government claims chaplain led prayer ceremonies are a tradition that dates back to the founding of the United States and a practice that has been conducted at legislative prayer sessions since the Congress’s first session more than 200 years ago. The legislative prayer prayer sessions were “not . . . an ‘establishment’ of religion,” but “a tolerable acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country.”

That alone requires the case to be dismissed, the government’s response filing says.

MRFF founder and president Mikey Weinstein, a former White House counsel in the Reagan administration, and general counsel to Texas billionaire and two-time presidential candidate H. Ross Perot, sharply criticized the Justice Department’s legal argument.

“I find the DOJ's use of the word "tolerable" to be quite transparently disingenuous,” said Weinstein, who graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy and has also served as an Air Force Judge Advocate General (JAG). “In today's U.S. military, having to endure such forced nonsecular indoctrination is about as "tolerable" as having an electric cattle prod shoved into one's body crevices. Shame on the DOJ."

Weinstein is also the author of the book With God On Our Side: One Man's War Against An Evangelical Coup in America's Military, which documents the virulent anti-Semitism he was subjected to while he attended the Air Force Academy and the proselytizing that has been rampant at the facility for years.

Revisionist History

Additionally, the Justice Department’s response says that Congress passed legislation in 1799 “providing that the 'commanders of ships of the United States, having on board chaplains, are to take care, that divine service be performed twice a day, and the sermon preached on Sundays.’”

Moreover, “in 1800, Congress directed, even more pointedly, that naval commanders 'cause all, or as many of the ships company as can be spared from duty, to attend at every performance of the worship of Almighty God.'”

“Thus, as with legislative prayer and inaugural prayer, it is simply inconceivable that the members of the First Congress, who drafted the Establishment Clause, thought it to prohibit chaplain-led prayer at military ceremonies, having passed legislation not only approving that practice, but indeed requiring service members to attend divine services,” Justice Department attorneys wrote in their response.

But according to Chris Rodda, the senior research director at MRFF and the author of the book Liars for Jesus, that’s revisionist history.

“What the DoJ fails to mention is that it, in 1858, these acts were protested by a group of naval officers, who petitioned Congress to amend the act of 1800 to make religious services optional,” Rodda said. “The petition of these naval officers was part of a widespread campaign to completely abolish both the military and congressional chaplaincies.

“Beginning in 1849, and continuing for the next two decades, Congress received hundreds of petitions signed by thousands of Americans, many from churches and religious organizations, calling for the complete abolition of all government chaplaincy establishments. In the military, a particular complaint was the takeover of the chaplaincy by the Episcopalians, and the resulting coercion and mandatory adherence to Episcopalian worship by non-Episcopalian military members and chaplains.”

“This is not an issue of Christians verses non-Christians,” Rodda added. “The overwhelming majority of petitions received by the Congresses of the 1850s and 1860s were written and signed by Christians and Christian religious organizations, just as the majority of complaints received by MRFF — 96 percent of them -- are from self-identified Christians, both Protestant and Catholic, who are being coerced and harassed by the fundamentalist Protestants, who don't consider them to be "real" Christians.”

[omitted for length - click link for omitted section]

So what do you all think? If he's willing to fight for us, does it matter what faith he has, or if he has any at all?

[RC51 John]

I don't care if he's a satanist as long as he does his job.

[Harb67]

I don't care if he's a satanist as long as he does his job.

Eh, a true Satanist would make a really bad soldier, what with the intense selfishness that Satanism emphasizes and all. One of the Hollywood movie satanists would be a cool soldier...summoning demons and everything.

[jermattak]

if i open my mouth, im gonna piss alot of people off, and maybe offend some people, so im gonna stay away from this thread

[RC51 John]

Okay mayme not a Satanist, how about an average Pagen type person.

[RC51 John]

if i open my mouth, im gonna piss alot of people off, and maybe offend some people, so im gonna stay away from this thread

That never stopped you before.

[Disclaimer]

if i open my mouth, im gonna piss alot of people off, and maybe offend some people, so im gonna stay away from this thread

Here fishy fishy fishy...

[magley64]

I happen to know a couple of laveyan satanists who ARE soldiers. They do their job well.

Satanism is severely misunderstood BTW. It's just a specific type of Atheism.

Soldiers should be free to subscribe to whatever religion/life philosophy they choose without pressure from the military.

[DollFace]

I had a good friend who was a wiccan. He used to make fun of me and call me a Jesus freak. I was cool. Then one day I said "Turn from me Satan, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus" and he almost crapped his pants.

The government can't decide was practices or religion people have. But, at the same time, people just need to learn to ignore things. Then on another, coming from a Christian, a lot of so called "Christians" have a tendency to push it. I am pretty sure God doesn't want us to force our way into people's lives. It is a matter of planting a seed, watching curiosity grow, and moving on from there if the other person is willing.

[RC51 John]

[that dude]

if i open my mouth, im gonna piss alot of people off, and maybe offend some people, so im gonna stay away from this thread

+1

[magley64]

I had a good friend who was a wiccan. He used to make fun of me and call me a Jesus freak. I was cool. Then one day I said "Turn from me Satan, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus" and he almost crapped his pants.

The government can't decide was practices or religion people have. But, at the same time, people just need to learn to ignore things. Then on another, coming from a Christian, a lot of so called "Christians" have a tendency to push it. I am pretty sure God doesn't want us to force our way into people's lives. It is a matter of planting a seed, watching curiosity grow, and moving on from there if the other person is willing.

If it were any other occupation, the company would DEFINITELY be sued..why should the military get special priveledges to pressure religious dogma onto their employees?

[RC51 John]

I think they are taking the "Onward Christian Solders" a bit to far.

[DollFace]

If it were any other occupation, the company would DEFINITELY be sued..why should the military get special priveledges to pressure religious dogma onto their employees?

I can't answer that question. The government is definately twisted. I won't deny that. But, there are strict rules against things like forcing religion on others in the workplace, right along with the "don't ask don't tell" policy. But, there is also strict policy about going through your chain of command. That dude jumped his chain of command like hot cakes, and the judge used that to his benefit. The soldier probably could have gone somewhere with it had he gone through is chain of commad first.

[Harb67]

Satanism is severely misunderstood BTW. It's just a specific type of Atheism.

Hence my post It's more self-focused and indulgent than anything.

[SAMBUSA]

"more fear"

[jagr]

I never heard anything like this during my military days. Those who wanted to pray, did and vise versa. I know some of you will flip, but I think the kids ok da being a birch about it. Just my opinion.

But then again I wasn't Army and wasn't in Kansas.

[jermattak]

That never stopped you before.

this is serious bitness! ill wait til people are already pissed at eachother, then ill slide in and state my argument

[busarider36]

Fellow soldier here as long as he can cover my back and do his job who cares what his beliefs are

[mrmako777]

this is serious bitness! ill wait til people are already pissed at eachother, then ill slide in and state my argument

why wait? im curious as to what you have to say dear friend

[jermattak]

why wait? im curious as to what you have to say dear friend

weve had this conversation before, about christianity and war, in one of our calvinism/armenianism debates

[mrmako777]

weve had this conversation before, about christianity and war, in one of our calvinism/armenianism debates

lol yes yes, you did lose that debate if i remember right?

[magley64]

...he needs to shut his trap and start soldering....

what, is he a circuit board builder?

I like soldering

[2wheels>4]

I don't care if he's a satanist as long as he does his job.

Amen, Brother... Or, Nema Natas.... LOL

Eh, a true Satanist would make a really bad soldier, what with the intense selfishness that Satanism emphasizes and all. One of the Hollywood movie satanists would be a cool soldier...summoning demons and everything.

You, as many others, misunderstand the nature of selfishness, also you are full of shit. We kill just fine, and there is nothing more selfish than killing others so you can have a better life in your own country. (Ok, so that isn't completely accurate, but you get the point...)

I happen to know a couple of laveyan satanists who ARE soldiers. They do their job well.

Satanism is severely misunderstood BTW. It's just a specific type of Atheism.

Soldiers should be free to subscribe to whatever religion/life philosophy they choose without pressure from the military.

Now, someone with a clue, or a library card, either or... Satanists are just Atheists making a joke on Christians.... No one who believes in the Christian mythology is really going to side with Satan, he has no chance... Ironically, this exact reaction from the religious is one of the primary reasons why we like to poke fun at them. Sadly, they rarely get the joke. (Ok, so you get the occasional teenage angst type that doesn't really understand what they are doing, but know they hate Christianity... these are just closet Atheists posing as Goths, like acne and black makeup, they will grow out of it....)

Even Anton LaVey stated that Satanism was just Atheism (Ayn Rand Objectivism, if you really want to get down to it) with ceremony. It's a joke on the close-minded by the free-thinking. (or so we see it that way) Atheists/Satanists make BETTER soldiers in my opinion. We fight for reasons we understand and aren't scared by magic men in the sky or "evil" satanists in our foxholes.... leaves us clear headed and ready to do the necessary. I would rather fight with someone who understands their mortality and the reality of the situation than someone who has "faith" in anything which can be shaken at a crucial time. Sure, religion has been used for eons to motivate soldiers and control the populations, but that is yet another reason to hate the lies and the liars who spread them.

And Christianity was DEFINATELY forced on us in the Army. The UCMJ says one thing about religious freedom, but I experienced a very different story... Persons not of Christian faith are openly mocked, singled out for hazing and punishment, selected for distasteful duties on Sunday because "if you ain't goin' to church, you might as well work your sins off...." Total bullshit just because I choose not to put my head in the same pile of sand as these ignorant hillbillies!?!?! There is a good group out there, Atheists in the Foxholes. They are exactly as the title suggests, look them up if you wish.

See, see what happens when you get me started on religion... I rant and then nobody likes me anymore.. Maybe if I pray about it... Damnit, gotta go do my taxes...

[DollFace]

The questioning begins with 'was he forced to join the military?' and 'is the SOP for the military?'

If he wasn't forced to join and this is SOP then he needs to shut his trap and start soldering. Other than that... I got nothing. It's late and I'm too tired to discuss the obsessiveness of Christianity and the bitching from 'the New Army.'

+1...woo woo!