Gentle giant

[Geeesammy]

http://i.imgur.com/8v5HzhZ.jpg

[Mace1647545504]

http://i.imgur.com/8v5HzhZ.jpg

 

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

mace

[Rocky31186]

http://i.imgur.com/8v5HzhZ.jpg

 

Also add in BELTS...

[Green Bastard]

So instead of petitioning to have the case tried again in a higher court they riot for "justice"...

 

I guess taking it to a higher court wouldn't get them a bunch of free stuff.

[Diamonds]

Justice is rioting

[PRD2BDF]

This may set off some nerves but I have to ask, is this one of these scenarios where they are pulling out the race card? I'm guilty of pulling out the disability card from time to time but I always know when to own up to my actions.

[Not Brian]

This may set off some nerves but I have to ask, is this one of these scenarios where they are pulling out the race card? I'm guilty of pulling out the disability card from time to time but I always know when to own up to my actions.

 

A white cop killed an unarmed black kid. Yes, that's pretty much what the entire thing is about. They're blind to the facts though.

[Mace1647545504]

dont let a good lie get in the way of the truth

 

http://news.yahoo.com/grand-jury-documents-rife-inconsistencies-223558856.html

 

mace

[Diamonds]

Race card In a case like this????? No

[aussiek2000]

dont let a good lie get in the way of the truth

 

http://news.yahoo.com/grand-jury-documents-rife-inconsistencies-223558856.html

 

mace

 

Clicked link, saw Al Sharpton, Closed link

[Mace1647545504]

Yea but it shows how "eye witness" when confronted with the physical evidence recanted their statements.

mace

[HotCarl]

So I have only sporadically read this thread (9 pages and counting?!) but i did want to share my point of view... for whatever that's worth.

 

1. The "unarmed" narrative needs to stop. Just because someone is unarmed does not mean they aren't a deadly threat. In the state of Missouri assaulting an officer is technically a deadly threat, not to mention the "reaching for the waste band" action and and grabbing of the officers handgun (testimony that was backed up with physical evidence).

 

2. Why are so many people focused on the actions of Officer Wilson's that contributed to ending Mr Brown's death. Why not focus on Brown's actions that led up to his own death? There's a clear cause and effect here.

 

3. I actually think its somewhat entertaining to debate this topic with other people who think Darren Wilson should be prosecuted. It's simple to read all of the evidence and see that this was a justifiable use of deadly force.

 

I am the last one to give a police officer the benefit of the doubt, but in this case justice actually won.

[Green Bastard]

^ #3, totally agree. Why are people so ignorant? I guess the saying "common sense isn't so common anymore" rings very true these days. It is rather unfortunate actually. The way I see it, Darwin won this time, it needs to happen more often.

[greg1647545532]

^ #3, totally agree. Why are people so ignorant? I guess the saying "common sense isn't so common anymore" rings very true these days. It is rather unfortunate actually. The way I see it, Darwin won this time, it needs to happen more often.

 

I'm hesitant to post my thoughts on CR, but FWIW, I spent 2 days reading through every single grand jury document that was released on Monday. I don't think it's as simple as some of you make it out to be. I'm not a lawyer or nothing, but I'm pretty well versed in the evidence at this point. I've written a lot about what's in the document on another message board, but I'll just copy and paste my "final thoughts" post here. If anyone has any specific questions about what was presented, what the grand jury considered important, or why I came up with my theory and/or conclusions, please ask respectfully and I'll fill in the details.

[greg1647545532]

OK, this is going to be a long post. I'm going to write up what I think happened on August 9th in Ferguson based on the totality of the evidence presented to the grand jury. I want to point out that I went through about 3 months of testimony in 2 days. I was primarily looking for new evidence that hadn't been presented in the media, things that the grand jury seemed to think were especially important, what instructions the grand jury received, and how credible the witnesses seemed on the stand. I think I did a pretty good job, but may have missed things. My opinion is obviously not the final say, but I've approached this with an open mind and I think I'm being fair to both sides.

 

Note: this account includes my own conjecture, so please don't quote indivual sentences and say "cite!?!" like a jackass, because I might be speculating. If you're curious about where I got something, ask and I'll clarify if it's speculation or based on evidence, or both.

 

 

The Robbery

 

Michael Brown stole a carton of Swishers from the QuikTrip at the corner of Canfield Dr. and W. FLorissant Ave. Shortly following the theft, someone called 911 and reported a description of Brown, Johnson, and what was stolen. Brown and Johnson began walking down Canfield Dr. Their destination was either to Johnson or Brown's apartment, they hadn't yet decided. The two divied up the boxes of cigarillos. Johnson put his boxes in his pockets in order to conceal them; Brown did not. They could have stayed out of public view; if you look at the satellite view of the street, you'll see that there are houses and a field they could have chosen to walk through, and once they hit Coppercreek Rd. they could have gotten off the main road altogether. Johnson would have preferred this, but he followed Brown's lead in walking down the middle of the street in a manner which Johnson described as "bold."

 

Brown's attitude here is important. The QT is the closest convenience store to his apartment, it was broad daylight on a Saturday, and yet he made no effort to conceal his crime, even when he saw the police.

 

 

The Police Respond

 

Darren Wilson was finishing up a call further down Canfield Ct. when he offered his assistance on the robbery call. Nobody responded, but he heard the description over the radio. Nevertheless, when he saw Brown and Johnson walking down the middle of the street, he did not immediately peg them as suspects, perhaps because their behavior was too nonchalant. He stopped to order them onto the sidewalk, either politely or rudely depending on who you believe. Not interested in diverting his attention to further harass jaywalkers, Wilson began driving away when he noticed the Swisher cigarillos Brown was holding. He put the Tahoe in reverse and backed up alongside Brown and Johnson, stopping at an angle in the street, close enough to the pair that they had to step out of the way. Brown ended up closest to the driver's door. Wilson instructed Brown to approach, and Brown stepped forward a step or two until he was standing right by the door.

 

 

The Altercation

 

Wilson attempted to open the door, but Brown's body was too close and it latched closed again. It's unclear what happened next so this is going to be extremely heavy on the speculation. Brown put his hand on the exterior window sill. Perhaps Brown found it humorous that the police officer put his car in a position that he couldn't open the door, and then put his hand to block the door as if to say, "It's your dumb ass fault that you can't get out of the car, so let's talk here like this." Wilson reached up to push Brown's arm out of the way, and Brown pushed back to keep his hand or arm on the door. Wilson, not expecting any resistance over a simple stop for $48 worth of stolen property, was jolted into action by adrenaline. With Brown's hand now entering the vehicle and making contact with his body, Wilson grabs Brown's right arm and pins it to the inside of the door.

 

Brown, still not viewing his own actions as "resisting arrest," upset that his arm is being pinned, and possibly in pain, hands his cigarillos to his friend to free up his left hand. He moves his head and shoulders into the police cruiser and punches Wilson with his left hand in the right side of the face. The punch was hard, because Brown is a big dude, but not that hard, because it's hard to swing when you're leaning into a car like that. Nevertheless, Wilson, feeling trapped in the car and dazed due to the assault, makes the determination to draw his weapon. Rather than prompting Brown to cease resisting, the sight of the gun causes Brown to go on the defensive. Brown pulls his right hand up to block the gun's trajectory upward. Wilson doesn't know what Brown is doing reaching out with his hand on his gun, so he tries to fire. It does not. He tries again and it does not. Finally, he pushes back from the door to free the gun from Brown's hand, and as soon as he does it goes off. Brown is shot in the hand from 6-9 inches away. The window shatters when the projectile enters the door.

 

Both Brown and Wilson are stunned by this. Brown's hand is still in the car, bleeding, and too close to the gun for Wilson's comfort, so he pulls the trigger again, hitting nothing. Brown runs.

 

 

The Chase

 

Brown runs east down Canfield Rd. Wilson opens the door, then pauses to call into his radio that shots were fired and/or backup was needed. He takes off after Brown with his gun at his side. Brown is maybe 75 feet from the police cruiser; one of his sandals had fallen off a few yards from the police cruiser, and the second falls off further down. Wilson shouts at him to "Stop! Stop! Stop!" Brown continues to run, in socks, for another 30 yards. He steps on a rock, flinches from the pain, and decides that he's not going to outrun the cop, not with his physical (weight) condition, lack of shoes, and gunshot wound. He is approximately 45-50 feet away from Wilson at this point.

 

 

The Critical Moments

 

Brown executes his next series of moves quickly. He stops and whips around. Dorian Johnson testifies that he says "I don't have a gun" in an angry manner. Based on other witness testimony, I believe he instead said "Okay, okay, okay," but still in an angry manner. He begins walking back towards Wilson while putting his hands up, palms out, at a shoulder level but with his arms at a 45 degree angle as if to say both "Look, I don't have a gun" and "calm down" in the universal "simmer down now" hand motion. He is trying to surrender, but he's not hiding his mood and he's moving too quickly. He lowers his hands thinking that he's already made his intentions clear.

 

After moving toward Wilson about 10 feet, or a few steps, Wilson makes a choice. Michael Brown has already resisted arrest, assaulted him, and put his hand on his weapon, and now he's walking towards him, looking angry, with his hands at his sides. He opens fire, 6 times, hitting Brown critically in his chest, puncturing his lung and causing his chest cavity to fill with blood. Brown is now 30 feet from Wilson. Blood splatters on the ground from an arm wound. Brown feels like he's been kicked in the chest by a horse, he bends over at the waist and begins moving his hand up to his belly. This puts him off balance, and he instinctively begins moving faster as his legs move out to try to catch his balance. He picks up speed and his head drops, pointing directly at Wilson. He is 15 feet away. Wilson takes a few steps backward and fires 4 more times, hitting Brown in the forehead and blowing out his right eye, then fatally hitting him in the top of the head. Brown takes 2 or 3 more steps during this final volley, and at the final head shot goes limp and drops to the pavement like a rock. A large quantity of blood flies about 3 or 4 feet forward, like a balloon popping. Wilson is left standing about 6-8 feet from the body.

 

 

The Aftermath

 

Once Brown turned around, he and Wilson were facing each other. From Wilson's perspective, Brown slowly picked up speed and lowered his head over the course of a 40-45 foot "charge." I think Wilson saw what he saw, but I don't think he appreciates that the wounds inflicted by his first six shots were directly responsible for his own perception that he was being charged. Other witnesses saw Brown with his hands up or at his side or at his belly, depending on where they were looking, when they were looking there, and just by chance, what visual was seared into their memory. Watching Brown's eyeball and head essentially explode must have been extremely traumatic. I believe this visual trauma accounts for the varying details of Brown's hand and body position, as well as the many incorrect accounts of how far Brown and Wilson ran from the police cruiser. A 20 second foot chase suddenly doesn't seem very important when you just saw someone die in an incredibly graphic manner.

 

I believe the vast majority of the witnesses gave truthful statements, although many of them did not see crucial parts of the encounter and therefore their statements were less compelling. The few witnesses who lied were exposed on the stand.

 

 

The Grand Jury

 

What I've struggled the most with is whether or not the grand jury came to the right decision. To say that the grand jury was forced into an unusual situation is to put it mildly. They were given a lot of evidence, some of it solid, some of it garbage, and they had to sort out what was important on their own. There were no opening statements, no closing statements. No cross examination of any experts or witnesses. They weren't given instructions until the day before their deliberations started.

 

I think that Darren Wilson acted hastily when he opened fire on Michael Brown in the street, considering Brown was unarmed and roughly 40-45 feet away. I don't think he gave Brown clear instructions, such as "Get on the ground or I will shoot you right now." Legally, I don't know that he needed to if he felt his life was in danger. I don't know if Brown would have complied.

 

I don't think Wilson would have been convicted at a trial. I think I would feel better if he'd had one, but I'm going to stop short of saying that the grand jury made the wrong call. My opinion is that this shooting exists in a much debated legal gray area, where I think someone died unecessarily but at the same time I don't think, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a law was broken. Do I think a law was probably broken? Sometimes I think yes, and sometimes I think no. I really don't know what I'd do if I were sitting on the grand jury. I don't think I'd want to.

[Green Bastard]

So it is a fact that he would not allow the officer to exit the car and started a confrontation with him there? If so, he kind of set the tone for the entire incident (imo). I can see where officer Wilson could see him as a threat from that point on. Weather or not he handled things properly from that point on is unclear because only 2 people know exactly what happened, and one of them is not able to talk about it now. Just to be clear, all of this is my opinion, and I don't think he was too bright to be fucking with a police officer like that in the first place.

[Littleguy]

Great post greg. Very very reasonable way to look at all of the evidence and I've got to say that I agree.

[Mace1647545504]

Long story short

If he doesn't rob the store and walks on the side walk none of this happens.

mace

[greg1647545532]

So it is a fact that he would not allow the officer to exit the car and started a confrontation with him there?

 

Not a fact. Unfortunately, most of the witnesses didn't start paying attention until the first gunshot, so we only have a few stories of what happened at the car, and only 2 stories of what happened prior to any punches being thrown -- Wilson's and that of Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson. The way Johnson tells it, Wilson couldn't get out of the car because he foolishly opened the door into Brown, and then got mad and tried to pull Brown into the car. The way Wilson tells it, Brown slammed the door shut with his body and then started swinging.

 

In my narrative, I've kinda split the difference. I don't know that Brown was trying to slam the door on Wilson and start a fight, but his actions that day make it plausible to my mind that he took advantage of the situation that presented itself to act tough in front of a cop.

 

Believe it or not, the testimony that most impeaches Brown's behavior that day is Dorian's. He describes Brown's behavior as inexplicably bold. Canfield is not a side street, there was ample traffic and they were walking right in the middle of it carrying stolen goods in plain sight, forcing cars around them, minutes after committing a robbery. Nearest I can tell, Brown did this intentionally. Why, I don't know. Previously to reviewing Johnson's testimony I was skeptical that any sane person would behave like this, but for whatever reason, that's what he was doing.

 

If so, he kind of set the tone for the entire incident (imo). I can see where officer Wilson could see him as a threat from that point on.

 

No doubt. Regardless of what happened at the door, Wilson was affecting a lawful arrest and Brown had no right to defend himself or escape, as Dorian characterized it. Even if all he did was try to get away, that means he resisted arrest, and yes, that sets the tone for the encounter.

 

Weather or not he handled things properly from that point on is unclear because only 2 people know exactly what happened, and one of them is not able to talk about it now. Just to be clear, all of this is my opinion, and I don't think he was too bright to be fucking with a police officer like that in the first place.

 

Right, and here's where things get less clear. Cops deal with unruly people all the time without shooting them in the head, even people who are resisting arrest. You'll get no argument from me that Brown did a number of not just stupid, but criminal things that day. I'll make some allowance for shoplifting given his age and the small amount that was stolen. I'm less inclined to chalk up roughing up the store clerk and then boldly walking down the street immediately afterwards as normal hooliganish behavior. And I certainly won't excuse resisting arrest.

 

Side note, it was amazing how many of the witnesses described to either the police or the FBI during their statements that they new what it was like to be shot. Seriously, it felt like half a dozen of the witnesses, including Dorian Johnson, had been shot at some point in their lives. I really can't imagine living in that neighborhood. I'm far too soft.

 

Anyway, the point is that the grand jury wasn't there to decide whether Brown resisted arrest, they were there to decide if they believed Wilson's claim of self defense was probably true. And that's much trickier.

[Green Bastard]

Has there been an autopsy report released (publically)? It would be interesting to see if he may have been on something (referring to something mind altering such as lsd, shrooms, ect.) being as his friend described him as unusually bold that day.

[greg1647545532]

Has there been an autopsy report released (publically)? It would be interesting to see if he may have been on something (referring to something mind altering such as lsd or something) being as his friend described him as unusually bold that day.

 

Yes, and the toxicologist testified for the grand jury. He'd most likely gotten baked that morning. Nothing else in his system. The grand jury asked if the weed might have made him aggressive, and he was basically like, "Ah, no. Lazy maybe, but not aggressive," with the caveat that you can never know exactly how a dose of weed is going to affect someone.

[V8 Beast]

My 2 cents:

 

-The media has a story guaranteed to bring in ratings. Can I tell you, I was so fucking happy when more things were set on fire. I was tired of watching the same news clips for 45 minutes. I felt like I was on the Edge of Tomorrow until they finally got a new video. I guess that teaches me for being too lazy to find the remote.

 

-Racist people on both sides have all the ammo they need to show everyone just how racist they are

"It's ok because there are black people robbing a liquor store.. Hell, they are being racist for me!"

"Why didn't they use a stun gun??? If he was white they would have used a stun gun! That's why I cant stand white people!".

 

-Instigators get to stir the pot purely for their own amusement (This is half of the clowns in this thread).

 

-I'm so tired of looters thinking they are protesting. Justice is not inside of the window you broke or the TV you stole!!! Fucking dumb ass! Every time I get pulled over or some old white lady gets scared of me it's because of you!

 

-Why do people think they are making a difference by escalating the situation further? At this point he's not going to be indicted. If you trying to teach them a lesson for the next time think about this... You may put pressure on the legal system to indict an innocent person to avoid going through this again. Is that really fair to the next guy? Now go recycle the sign you made and foster a troubled kid. If a few thousand people did that you would see a real difference.

 

-If you think shooting people or other forms of violence is the answer, you might be part of the problem. Too many people see this mentality and immediately think there has to be malicious intent with every shooting. When you are raised feeling like you are expendable, and it's confirmed by people at every turn, it makes you wonder. That doubt is enough to start a shit storm

every time! Don't fuel the fire, let it die out.

 

-Forums and social media are racially divided with the majority of people not knowing half the facts. People love to belong so they tend to surround themselves with familiar people. It would be nice if more people learned how to use their brains and stopped being followers. Why be educated when you can go with the majority. This is very apparent on both sides of the fence.

 

-Finally, Why take the time to make up what-if scenarios to justify your beliefs? It's still a what if. At the end of the day it's a guy we don't know who was shot by another guy we don't know. Happens everyday.

 

 

 

P.S. If you want to join in and voice your opinion feel free. Just remember to be mindful of posting things that could be considered hurtful or racially insensitive. This forum has many people from many walks of life and we need to respect that.

[spectragod]

My 2 cents:

 

-The media has a story guaranteed to bring in ratings. Can I tell you, I was so fucking happy when more things were set on fire. I was tired of watching the same news clips for 45 minutes. I felt like I was on the Edge of Tomorrow until they finally got a new video. I guess that teaches me for being too lazy to find the remote.

 

-Racist people on both sides have all the ammo they need to show everyone just how racist they are

"It's ok because there are black people robbing a liquor store.. Hell, they are being racist for me!"

"Why didn't they use a stun gun??? If he was white they would have used a stun gun! That's why I cant stand white people!".

 

-Instigators get to stir the pot purely for their own amusement (This is half of the clowns in this thread).

 

-I'm so tired of looters thinking they are protesting. Justice is not inside of the window you broke or the TV you stole!!! Fucking dumb ass! Every time I get pulled over or some old white lady gets scared of me it's because of you!

 

-Why do people think they are making a difference by escalating the situation further? At this point he's not going to be indicted. If you trying to teach them a lesson for the next time think about this... You may put pressure on the legal system to indict an innocent person to avoid going through this again. Is that really fair to the next guy? Now go recycle the sign you made and foster a troubled kid. If a few thousand people did that you would see a real difference.

 

-If you think shooting people or other forms of violence is the answer, you might be part of the problem. Too many people see this mentality and immediately think there has to be malicious intent with every shooting. When you are raised feeling like you are expendable, and it's confirmed by people at every turn, it makes you wonder. That doubt is enough to start a shit storm

every time! Don't fuel the fire, let it die out.

 

-Forums and social media are racially divided with the majority of people not knowing half the facts. People love to belong so they tend to surround themselves with familiar people. It would be nice if more people learned how to use their brains and stopped being followers. Why be educated when you can go with the majority. This is very apparent on both sides of the fence.

 

-Finally, Why take the time to make up what-if scenarios to justify your beliefs? It's still a what if. At the end of the day it's a guy we don't know who was shot by another guy we don't know. Happens everyday.

 

 

 

P.S. If you want to join in and voice your opinion feel free. Just remember to be mindful of posting things that could be considered hurtful or racially insensitive. This forum has many people from many walks of life and we need to respect that.

 

^^^^THIS^^^^ , so very true, every bit of it. I could only wish I could have said it as eloquently.

[Ben]

Here's my two problems with the Ferguson situation:

 

1.) Wilson and the prosecutor in this case seem to have presented Wilson's defenses to the grand jury. I have NEVER seen a prosecutor allow a defendant to present his defenses to a grand jury to avoid an indictment. Thus, I am forced to ask, why did this case merit an exception?

 

2.) Police officers aren't entitled to shoot a suspect to arrest him or merely because they see him commit a crime. In fact, at least in Ohio, a police officer's right to use deadly force in self-defense is more or less identical to any other citizen. So, ask yourself this question - if two men get in a fist fight with each other and one of them (who is later found not to have been significantly injured in the fracas) pulls a gun and shoots the unarmed man, is this not a problem?

[oh8sti]

Here's my two problems with the Ferguson situation:

 

1.) Wilson and the prosecutor in this case seem to have presented Wilson's defenses to the grand jury. I have NEVER seen a prosecutor allow a defendant to present his defenses to a grand jury to avoid an indictment. Thus, I am forced to ask, why did this case merit an exception?

 

2.) Police officers aren't entitled to shoot a suspect to arrest him or merely because they see him commit a crime. In fact, at least in Ohio, a police officer's right to use deadly force in self-defense is more or less identical to any other citizen. So, ask yourself this question - if two men get in a fist fight with each other and one of them (who is later found not to have been significantly injured in the fracas) pulls a gun and shoots the unarmed man, is this not a problem?

 

Curse, yell, scream and call people whatever you want, but don't touch people, don't throw anything at anyone and don't threaten someones life.

 

It just might get you killed if you go after the wrong person that has a gun and wants to defend themselves.

 

and for the love of fuck, do not....DO NOT punch a cop. Ever.