San Bernardino Attack

[Hwilli1647545487]

when you are talking simply bullets into targets, I agree. But that is not the sum total of training that goes into conflict resolution, strategy, fitness, mental health...etc....If your justification for a CCW is conflict resolution in self defense situations and you don't have any of the other training pieces to the puzzle, you only have one tool out of the many you need.

 

That is not what we were discussing at all. We were specifically discussing a CCW holders ability to stop a violent encounter, specifically an active shooter situation. This would imply that at this time, the only course of action would be to "go to guns".

 

My point to that discussion is that police and military to not have a significantly higher level of training that civilians. I would also argue that the majority of our military are lacking in the support structure of conflict resolution/support ect that police have, but you put them on the same level.

 

Now concerning a ccw being your go to resolution for any conflict resolution... I will agree with you there. If a persons mindset is the gun is the only tool in the tool box, then I would wager they will not legally be able to carry a gun for long.

[wagner]

Now this bothers me

 

http://news.yahoo.com/mosque-members-on-san-bernardino-shooter---he-was-living-the-american-dream-170234658.html?nf=1

 

I saw an interview with these guys and these stupid sister fucking rednecks are calling them saying some pretty igonrant things.

 

Not every muslim is a terrorist, sort of like every gun owner is not a right wing nut job.

 

One of my wife's good friends is from the middle east and I feel bad for how some bigots speak to her, the only bad thing she's ever done to america in her life is not eat bacon.

[RyM3rC]

I heard rymer has been shot 17 times, stabbed, 11 times, hit with an iron 3 times, the ironing board only once ironically, and hit with a grapefruit a remarkable 48 times.

 

I heard he is still here too.

 

Some of those grapefruits had it coming and that ironing board is a damn liar

[Hwilli1647545487]

Good for him. However, he got exactly what he wanted: the ability to scare himself by being in a bad situation and using the threat of force to protect the change from a $50. Don't get me wrong, I really feel for your friend and I am sorry he was in that situation at all - it sucks. But it's kind of my point, most people don't realize the post situation ramifications, they think as far as possibly surviving the event and that's it. If he's that rattled post event, he should seek counseling as he now probably understands the responsibility better and may have a lot to think about.

 

Could the kid have stabbed him? yeah. Could the kid have threatened him with the knife and then shit his drawers when he was defiant? also yes. Could he have just handed over his wallet and they all went away? yes again. Could he have seen a group of questionable looking kids in a sketchy neighborhood and picked another gas station? yup. but none of these things happened. What did happen is he got lucky. He tested the kid's resolve to do him physical harm and the kid chose not to test his commitment to use the firearm. it worked out in the best possible way against the odds that it wouldn't.

 

 

That's certainly one way to spin that. One would also argue that the situation went as best it could have. His friend was able to move freely with in a public place, conduct his business, and when the kids attempted to intimidate him/force their will on him, he was able to stop that from happening. He was able to do this without he or the kid being physically harmed.

 

I am curious if he reported this to the police. If he even did I doubt it was recorded in any meaningful way to allow us to see how many times a firearm in the hands of a responsible citizen is used to stop a violent crime. That's a statistic I would be interested in seeing.

I've heard speculation that it is a very high number.

 

Now one thing I will again agree on you with. Anyone on here that carries a gun for self protection. GET MORE TRAINING. In most cases your CCW instructor was a dickbag just wanting to make a buck. He/she didnt tell you all you need to know. Even if you had a good instructor 4 hours of range time isnt sufficient.

 

 

As GTO alluded to. People arent meant to kill other people (psychologically). Have you thought about what it would be like to actually have to kill someone? I know people who have had to do this. I knew them before and after, I promise you they were not the same.

[TTQ B4U]

Good for him. However, he got exactly what he wanted: the ability to scare himself by being in a bad situation and using the threat of force to protect the change from a $50.

 

I agree around the $50 but the unknown is would the kid have shanked him and ran? He's as big as you and FWIW, not much but perhaps to some, all three are black. So it's not like young black guys picking on a small geeky white guy.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really feel for your friend and I am sorry he was in that situation at all - it sucks. But it's kind of my point, most people don't realize the post situation ramifications, they think as far as possibly surviving the event and that's it. If he's that rattled post event, he should seek counseling as he now probably understands the responsibility better and may have a lot to think about.

 

Agree, but he clearly did and does understand the responsibility. When I talked to him face to face I could see his face as he said he didn't want to have to shoot the kid and was glad the kid ran vs forcing him to pull the trigger.

[TTQ B4U]

I am curious if he reported this to the police. If he even did I doubt it was recorded in any meaningful way to allow us to see how many times a firearm in the hands of a responsible citizen is used to stop a violent crime. That's a statistic I would be interested in seeing. I've heard speculation that it is a very high number.

 

He did go back inside and called. The clerk saw the whole thing and already had cops in route. He said 2 cars showed up but one left shortly after. The first officer took a report but it wasn't extensive. It was a Shell off Morse Rd close to Easton. That's all I know about the location.

 

Now one thing I will again agree on you with. Anyone on here that carries a gun for self protection. GET MORE TRAINING. In most cases your CCW instructor was a dickbag just wanting to make a buck. He/she didnt tell you all you need to know. Even if you had a good instructor 4 hours of range time isnt sufficient.

[El Karacho1647545492]

Now this bothers me

 

http://news.yahoo.com/mosque-members-on-san-bernardino-shooter---he-was-living-the-american-dream-170234658.html?nf=1

 

I saw an interview with these guys and these stupid sister fucking rednecks are calling them saying some pretty igonrant things.

 

Not every muslim is a terrorist, sort of like every gun owner is not a right wing nut job.

 

One of my wife's good friends is from the middle east and I feel bad for how some bigots speak to her, the only bad thing she's ever done to america in her life is not eat bacon.

 

A college roommate and extremely good friend of mine's heritage is Pakistani, he was born in the U.S. and his parents are both doctors in Springfield OH. He's a socially liberal guy, and a practicing Muslim. He doesn't eat bacon, he doesn't drink or do drugs, but other than that he's a pretty normal guy. I went to his wedding in CA in June, his wife's family is very similar in their beliefs. During the Nikah (what we'd equate to the wedding ceremony in Western culture) the imam spoke at length about the difference between traditional Islam and modern Islam, praising the couple for being the embodiment of modern, liberal Islam that shuffles off the harsh, restrictive traditions that many associated with radical Islam. Hell, his wife doesn't wear any kind of headscarf or covering, she is an independent woman and they are both going to be doctors very soon.

 

And yet...about 5 weeks ago she was verbally assaulted/berated by one of her superiors at work because she is Muslim. Someone she respected, who is well known in his field as a surgeon, took the time out of his day to tell her what scum she is, how she has no place in America, and how she and her brethren should go back to the desert and fuck camels. This is a woman who was born in America, who has worked her ass off to become a doctor and help Americans get healthy, and who is IMO the embodiment of the argument AGAINST bigotry because she is simply a down to Earth, loving person regardless of her beliefs.

 

I don't care what you think, everyone's entitled to their own WRONG opinion, but if you feel the need to berate someone to their face for what they believe instead of trying to understand who they are as an individual, you need to reevaluate how you represent what America stands for.

[wagner]

A college roommate and extremely good friend of mine's heritage is Pakistani, he was born in the U.S. and his parents are both doctors in Springfield OH. He's a socially liberal guy, and a practicing Muslim. He doesn't eat bacon, he doesn't drink or do drugs, but other than that he's a pretty normal guy. I went to his wedding in CA in June, his wife's family is very similar in their beliefs. During the Nikah (what we'd equate to the wedding ceremony in Western culture) the imam spoke at length about the difference between traditional Islam and modern Islam, praising the couple for being the embodiment of modern, liberal Islam that shuffles off the harsh, restrictive traditions that many associated with radical Islam. Hell, his wife doesn't wear any kind of headscarf or covering, she is an independent woman and they are both going to be doctors very soon.

 

And yet...about 5 weeks ago she was verbally assaulted/berated by one of her superiors at work because she is Muslim. Someone she respected, who is well known in his field as a surgeon, took the time out of his day to tell her what scum she is, how she has no place in America, and how she and her brethren should go back to the desert and fuck camels. This is a woman who was born in America, who has worked her ass off to become a doctor and help Americans get healthy, and who is IMO the embodiment of the argument AGAINST bigotry because she is simply a down to Earth, loving person regardless of her beliefs.

 

I don't care what you think, everyone's entitled to their own WRONG opinion, but if you feel the need to berate someone to their face for what they believe instead of trying to understand who they are as an individual, you need to reevaluate how you represent what America stands for.

 

I agree 100%, sort of like those who want to beat me with their bible, or tell gay's they are not human.

 

I also was 100% joking about the bacon comment, its an inside joke between her and us. We asked her if she would be our DD to Baconfest this year.

 

I also told her the next time the door to door jesus salespeople showed up she should troll them hard with questions like "if I convert to your system can I get white girl wated and eat ham?"

[zeitgeist57]

In most cases your CCW instructor was a dickbag just wanting to make a buck. He/she didnt tell you all you need to know. Even if you had a good instructor 4 hours of range time isnt sufficient.

 

My guy was the wurst.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:gabe:

[Adam]

Military/Police having super training with firearms and conflict is a fallacy of people who are afraid of gun owners. Just the Army's lack of training, and lack of funding leads me to look to civilian training to come up with my platoon's own training plan outside of what the Army gives us. Most of your CCW holders shoot way more than your average soldier in the Army. There have been months that led to years that whole units have not shot their weapons while in active duty infantry positions. I fight tooth and nail to get my platoon to the range once a month but more like once a quarter. I spend a lot of my own money to get people to civilian ranges to become more proficient with any firearm. The only reason I am proficient is because I shoot on my personal time outside of the Army. If you can make someone believe that there is some kind of seperation between a civilian and a soldier when it comes to firearms then you can start stripping rights away from the private sector and consolidate that power to smaller and smaller groups.

[El Karacho1647545492]

Military/Police having super training with firearms and conflict is a fallacy of people who are afraid of gun owners. Just the Army's lack of training, and lack of funding leads me to look to civilian training to come up with my platoon's own training plan outside of what the Army gives us. Most of your CCW holders shoot way more than your average soldier in the Army. There have been months that led to years that whole units have not shot their weapons while in active duty infantry positions. I fight tooth and nail to get my platoon to the range once a month but more like once a quarter. I spend a lot of my own money to get people to civilian ranges to become more proficient with any firearm. The only reason I am proficient is because I shoot on my personal time outside of the Army. If you can make someone believe that there is some kind of seperation between a civilian and a soldier when it comes to firearms then you can start stripping rights away from the private sector and consolidate that power to smaller and smaller groups.

 

The so called "fallacy" in your example is based purely on accuracy training. Are you suggesting that a civilian is just as well trained as a member of our military or police to make split second decisions with a gun in hand when they're in the heat of battle?

 

I'll use the example of a street fighter versus a professional fighter. There are PLENTY of civilians with no training whatsoever who are punch harder and faster than a trained MMA fighter. But that's not what makes a good fighter; what makes a good fighter is situation awareness, knowledge of how to handle disadvantageous situations, and the ability to train one's body in times of stress. You've been punched in the face, right? You know that sudden rush of adrenaline? That's what hurts a majority of normal people in a fight. They don't control that adrenaline, they just feed off it and allows them to punch super hard and super quick, but any professional fighter worth his salt can duck those punches because they have trained their mind and body to control their adrenaline. They can let an untrained fighter burn off that adrenaline energy quickly, and they can temper their own body's adrenaline production to see the smaller gaps in their opponent's defense and exploit them AS THEIR TRAINING HAS MADE THEM ABLE TO DO.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting police and military are better in these situations because they are more accurate or have more range time. I think police and military are better in these situations because they've been through things like basic training, which teach you how to operate intelligently and decisively under extremely stressful conditions, and they teach you the muscle memory reactions in split-second decision making that can be the difference between identifying someone as a threat or a bystander and shooting accordingly.

 

Going back to my fighter example for a second; a typical untrained fighter who gets punched in the face is immediately going to experience a rush of adrenaline and a fight/flight response. Assuming they've never been in a fight before, they're going to be throwing wide haymakers and be 100% offense rather than assessing the situation and finding their advantage. Now imagine the person having that reaction has a gun. Is that someone you want "protecting" you?

 

 

EDIT: Words

[bahd-ler]

My instructor made us go out into the backyard and yell "yee haw" while shooting our guns into the air! Thats the day I quit being a pussy....

[Geeesammy]

I mean all day I've seen media talking about it as an act of terror. Idk where you guys have been getting info from.

 

But then again I'm not sitting on a computer all day hitting F5 on CNN's front page...

[Spidey2721]

you do realise that alot of the same people that offer course for civs are the same people that are paid to train officers? also ask a officer how often they are required to spend with their firearm and how often they are required to re-qual. in the end i would MUCH rather have a chance or some ability to defend myself then stand like like a sheep with no way to defend myself.

[Adam]

The so called "fallacy" in your example is based purely on accuracy training. Are you suggesting that a civilian is just as well trained as a member of our military or police to make split second decisions with a gun in hand when they're in the heat of battle?

 

I'll use the example of a street fighter versus a professional fighter. There are PLENTY of civilians with no training whatsoever who are punch harder and faster than a trained MMA fighter. But that's not what makes a good fighter; what makes a good fighter is situation awareness, knowledge of how to handle disadvantageous situations, and the ability to train one's body in times of stress. You've been punched in the face, right? You know that sudden rush of adrenaline? That's what hurts a majority of normal people in a fight. They don't control that adrenaline, they just feed off it and allows them to punch super hard and super quick, but any professional fighter worth his salt can duck those punches because they have trained their mind and body to control their adrenaline. They can let an untrained fighter burn off that adrenaline energy quickly, and they can temper their own body's adrenaline production to see the smaller gaps in their opponent's defense and exploit them AS THEIR TRAINING HAS MADE THEM ABLE TO DO.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting police and military are better in these situations because they are more accurate or have more range time. I think police and military are better in these situations because they've been through things like basic training, which teach you how to operate intelligently and decisively under extremely stressful conditions, and they teach you the muscle memory reactions in split-second decision making that can be the difference between identifying someone as a threat or a bystander and shooting accordingly.

 

Going back to my fighter example for a second; a typical untrained fighter who gets punched in the face is immediately going to experience a rush of adrenaline and a fight/flight response. Assuming they've never been in a fight before, they're going to be throwing wide haymakers and be 100% offense rather than assessing the situation and finding their advantage. Now imagine the person having that reaction has a gun. Is that someone you want "protecting" you?

 

 

EDIT: Words

 

No it is based on being in the Army. Your idea of what the Army does is not based on anything credible. I am not saying that a civilian is as good as anything. I am saying your idea that the military is trained is not accurate and the only reason that people like Howard does not call the Army out for being poorly trained is because they do not want to speak out about something that some keyboard warrior will say they can not know anything about. Hell when I talk to Clark about being a cop I am pretty envious of the training he gets as a cop on room clearing and training. Heck even some courses that civilians take are more than I get.

 

Your example of fighters is like comparing civilians with CAG, the regular Army does not get the training you think they do. If the country knew how incompetent the military as a whole is you would be pouring more money into the Airforce fighter aircrafts and the Navy to keep any threat away from the country, or we start making sure our soldiers could defend against other countries ground forces

[Adam]

I don't think anyone is suggesting police and military are better in these situations because they are more accurate or have more range time. I think police and military are better in these situations because they've been through things like basic training, which teach you how to operate intelligently and decisively under extremely stressful conditions, and they teach you the muscle memory reactions in split-second decision making that can be the difference between identifying someone as a threat or a bystander and shooting accordingly.

 

Basic training, lol. Bruh if you only knew

 

Operate intelligently and decisively! What bizarro world are you getting that from?

[Tractor]

Lately it looks like our police haven't been doing very good at making split second decisions;-)

[nurkvinny]

Vince Adams

 

2 hrs^·^

 

An Islamist travels to the middle east for a month, grows out his beard, had a wife who pledges allegiance to ISIS, makes pipe bombs in the garage, voiced their views to many (but people did not report the lunatic for fear of being labeled racist - although Islam is not a race), a building full of innocent people within a gun free zone is fired upon, nobody was allowed to defend themselves. Evil people skirted all "common sense" gun control laws in place in California to acquire guns. Same people broke dozens of laws including "don't flipping kill people" ... and some idiots are taking the microphone today to declare more gun control would have saved lives.

 

If you agree with that, well... you're a dumbass.

[AngryBMW]

The only reason I am proficient is because I shoot on my personal time outside of the Army.

 

It still scares me that you are considered a marksman...

 

-Marc

[RyM3rC]

I think police and military are better in these situations because they've been through things like basic training, which teach you how to operate intelligently and decisively under extremely stressful conditions, and they teach you the muscle memory reactions in split-second decision making that can be the difference between identifying someone as a threat or a bystander and shooting accordingly.

 

Haha, I sure don't remember anything like that from infantry basic/AIT, and that's for people that will actually be carrying blasters and kicking in doors and doing army guy shit. Maybe we've all repressed all that ninja-commando training, and we're just waiting for the activation words

 

SGT SHAW. SGT RAYMOND SHAW.

[RyM3rC]

Holy shit, what if the turrists get better training than our elite armed forced do? I mean, don't they kill captives and chop off heads and shit? Damn, those are some hard mofos. Don't even have a nice climate controlled barracks to come back to with a lukwarm shower and someone cooking your chow and shit.

[KillJoy]

Vince Adams

 

2 hrs^·^

 

An Islamist travels to the middle east for a month, grows out his beard, had a wife who pledges allegiance to ISIS, makes pipe bombs in the garage, voiced their views to many (but people did not report the lunatic for fear of being labeled racist - although Islam is not a race), a building full of innocent people within a gun free zone is fired upon, nobody was allowed to defend themselves. Evil people skirted all "common sense" gun control laws in place in California to acquire guns. Same people broke dozens of laws including "don't flipping kill people" ... and some idiots are taking the microphone today to declare more gun control would have saved lives.

 

If you agree with that, well... you're a dumbass.

 

:megusta:

 

KillJoy

[unfunnyryan]

Vince Adams

 

2 hrs^·^

 

An Islamist travels to the middle east for a month, grows out his beard, had a wife who pledges allegiance to ISIS, makes pipe bombs in the garage, voiced their views to many (but people did not report the lunatic for fear of being labeled racist - although Islam is not a race), a building full of innocent people within a gun free zone is fired upon, nobody was allowed to defend themselves. Evil people skirted all "common sense" gun control laws in place in California to acquire guns. Same people broke dozens of laws including "don't flipping kill people" ... and some idiots are taking the microphone today to declare more gun control would have saved lives.

 

If you agree with that, well... you're a dumbass.

 

[TTQ B4U]

My guy was the wurst.

 

Did you quote me as having said that? That's not my quote you replied to.

[Not Brian]

Vince Adams

 

2 hrs^·^

 

An Islamist travels to the middle east for a month, grows out his beard, had a wife who pledges allegiance to ISIS, makes pipe bombs in the garage, voiced their views to many (but people did not report the lunatic for fear of being labeled racist - although Islam is not a race), a building full of innocent people within a gun free zone is fired upon, nobody was allowed to defend themselves. Evil people skirted all "common sense" gun control laws in place in California to acquire guns. Same people broke dozens of laws including "don't flipping kill people" ... and some idiots are taking the microphone today to declare more gun control would have saved lives.

 

If you agree with that, well... you're a dumbass.

You just called my entire family a dumbass.

 

(I srsly want to delete facebook)