TDI owners stripping their cars before turning them in...

[Trouble Maker]

Let me try to respond to Kerry in a way that he understands.

 

You mean a wall of text no one is going to read?

[Geeesammy]

Driving old Jeeps that leak oil, burn oil, and get shit fuel economy daily because it's a "project" also harms the environment.

 

I think a greater harm to the environment is the collective pile of old ass beaters that are miraculously on the road still. The leak oil into our rivers and waterways, burn excessive fuel and oil, the emissions systems are disregarded due to the owner being unable financially, or unwilling to fix it.

 

Id bet geetos rusty clunker of a jeep does far worse on an emissions test than a tdi properly calibrated to not cheat emissions.

[unfunnyryan]

re:

 

[unfunnyryan]

Also people stripping their cars out, I love it. Help out others that are victims of Volkswagens lies and deception. Yeah it might be fraud, but VW sure as hell started it.

 

I want to see video of someone turning in a bare stripped frame, nothing but seat, seatbelt, and steering wheel.

[acklac7]

Ya making movies and eating pastrami sandwiches isn't easy.

 

lul

[zeitgeist57]

 

First of all it wasn't passive aggressive, it was overt. Second, there are many who feel that way today. Travel in Jewish communities and you'll see it a lot more common than you think. I had an ex girlfriend whose parents felt I had betrayed my heritage because I drove a BMW. I found it ironic that she drove a Supra and they had no problem with it. You are making jokes about it, but for many in the Jewish community the struggle is real. I was just making the point that wanting to give your money to VW because they broke laws you don't agree with has further reaching implications beyond protest.

 

I'm not making any jokes. You are the one posting more anecdotal, non-verifiable "stories" that supposedly help your case.

 

 

 

right now I am sitting on 6 gallons of coolant in my garage because every shop and parts store in town has told me to dump it in the river near the water treatment plant and I refuse to do it.

 

There is actually a pro environmental argument that can be made for continuing to use old vehicles which we won't get into here. The basic gist is that it is a form of recycling and the environmental cost of manufacture has already been paid back. But again he openly said he didn't agree with environmental laws so is it judgemental or a statement of fact?

 

Supposition. Just because Rymer doesnt agree with environmental laws doesn't imply that he's not for a clean environment. Show me evidence of Rymer openly violating the laws and I'll agree it's a statement of fact.

 

Until then, you're still as judgmental as the CR folks you thumb your nose towards.

 

 

Clay, for someone who "hates" passive aggressive behavior you sure do post a lot of it yourself on this site. Actually this was my attempt at sarcasm and humor but I don't expect this audience to get my sense of humor.

 

Your sense of humor sucks...again, know your audience. No one expected you to deliver like Dave Attell.

 

There is no fix beyond being in test mode 100% of the time and that hasn't been approved so there is a functional loss to the owner of the vehicle. Here in Ohio we mostly enjoy no emissions checks but in other states the option is going to be either a loss of usefulness, a higher maintenance cost to keep flashing the computer to pass, of giving up the car.

 

Translation: blah blah supposition blah blah you still get to keep your car.

 

 

Products liability law is strict liability. The mfg is on the hook for the product and the harm it causes no matter what. VW also has a products liability problem here but the bigger problem is how do you prove harm? The cheating is much easier to penalize. These are two completely different areas of law, being handled by different groups (one governmental on civil). You are comparing apples to motorcycles. Don't believe me ask your lawyer wife about the difference between a civil products liability suit and government sanctions against a foreign corporation.

 

I'm not talking about how VW broke the law, I'm talking about an unreasonable level of public outcry for one instance when far greater atrocities are being committed on a daily basis from corporations across the globe far worse and ongoing for consumers and the general public. People are myopic and misguided.

 

This isn't about common sense. You can't even fathom the ways and lengths in which companies have tried to defraud the American public for a buck and still do (remember when they said oxycodone was non-addictive in the 1990's?). Whether you know it or not or like it or not you need consumer protection laws. Your are exactly as naive as I am or anybody else because those looking to pull this stuff off are actively hiding it from you.

 

Actually, I've seen the same "Big Pharma" videos as you're referencing, and I'm not suggesting that we don't need consumer protection laws. You'd be surprised at the depths I can fathom, despite the detrimental effect that has for your arguments. It's not worth my time to make roundabout references...but apparently it is a good use of yours.

 

 

For the immediate present, but there are discussions in some of the more strict states about revoking the cars emissions certificates for that state. If that happens the owner will not be able to renew registration or import a used one into the state as the state attempts to rid itself of the dirty car. We are still not settled on this and the future for TDI owners who keep their car looks more bleak than just losing resale value.

 

I understand the eventuality of this process to which you're inferring. Until then, it hasn't happened and "deadlines" have been passed with no action.

 

Because there is a fix. If VW had a fix that was cost effective they wouldn't be buying back either. People are treating them horribly because the buyback process is more of a hassle than a recall repair.

 

I'm sure there are numerous fixes that are possible, but apparently nothing that's worth acting upon aside from a full buyback of vehicles from current owners that want to take their offer.

 

 

 

You are right clay, you do sound like an old man screaming "get off my lawn".

 

I never suggested I was screaming.

 

But cue you incorrectly mentioning the McDonald's coffee case in 3...2...1....

 

Point is clay, we get it, you don't own a VW and you aren't affected by the thing in the slightest. that's not really an excuse for you to be a dick to those who are caught up in it and unhappy.

 

You're not affected by this "thing" either, and yet you are being a dick to everyone on Columbus Racing NOT caught up in the Dieselgate scandal firsthand. Funny, I was never unhappy to begin with and now I'm smiling at the effort you've taken to refute my comments as an opinion on the topic.

 

I chuckle even more thinking that you're getting red in the face, still waiting to mention McDonalds when that was never going to happen anyway.

 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/12/parting-out-buyback-vws/

Edited December 16, 2016 by zeitgeist57

[HotCarl]

If you just read Clay's posts its actually a lot more entertaining that way.

[Geeto67]

I'm not making any jokes.

Really? Because it's hilarious.

 

 

 

Until then, you're still as judgmental as the CR folks you thumb your nose towards.

 

Great, we are all judgemental, you, me, him....we're human.

 

 

Your sense of humor sucks...again, know your audience. No one expected you to deliver like Dave Attell.

 

Everyone's a critic.

 

 

I'm not talking about how VW broke the law, I'm talking about an unreasonable level of public outcry for one instance when far greater atrocities are being committed on a daily basis from corporations across the globe far worse and ongoing for consumers and the general public. People are myopic and misguided.

 

Unreasonable to whom? You? People who are unaffected by it at all? You know you can still be possed about is AND pissed about other things too, there isn't a pecking order and you don't have to choise what to be mad about, you can be mad about all of it. Plus it's just the circles we travel in, I'm sure there are plenty of places that are not car forums or car news sites where VW doesn't even rate, just as we aren't really talking about Aleppo here.

 

 

 

I understand the eventuality of this process to which you're inferring. Until then, it hasn't happened and "deadlines" have been passed with no action.

 

The "deadlines" belong to the EPA and the federal government, not the states. The states are waiting to see what the outcome is - of the federal govt makes them buy back all the cars, there is nothing for the states to do. So far the only deadlines that have passed are the ones for a fix and the ones to complete the buyback process to the customers. This isn't over by a long shot.

 

I'm sure there are numerous fixes that are possible, but apparently nothing that's worth acting upon aside from a full buyback of vehicles from current owners that want to take their offer.

 

No you'd be wrong here. The terms of the settlement is that the "fix" is subject to EPA approval, so no EPA approval - no fix. VW doesn't appear to be trying to even submit one anymore, settling for just buyback. Part of the settlement is that if there was no fix VW would have to buyback 100% of the cars, so those that aren't giving them up....well we are just going to see how that gets handled.

 

 

You're not affected by this "thing" either, and yet you are being a dick to everyone on Columbus Racing NOT caught up in the Dieselgate scandal firsthand. Funny, I was never unhappy to begin with and now I'm smiling at the effort you've taken to refute my comments as an opinion on the topic.

 

No argument from me here. I'm actually enjoying this back and forth. But if you weren't unhappy before, why bitch about it?

[zeitgeist57]

Really? Because it's hilarious.

 

Great, we are all judgemental, you, me, him....we're human.

 

Everyone's a critic.

 

^^^Inserted attempts at having the last word, when there is no need to respond. Typical Kerry.

 

 

Unreasonable to whom? You? People who are unaffected by it at all? You know you can still be possed about is AND pissed about other things too, there isn't a pecking order and you don't have to choise what to be mad about, you can be mad about all of it. Plus it's just the circles we travel in, I'm sure there are plenty of places that are not car forums or car news sites where VW doesn't even rate, just as we aren't really talking about Aleppo here.

 

Since I've said numerous times it's my opinion, then YES...it is unreasonable to me. I'm certain there are others who share my stance, which is why I fell comfortable sharing it amongst my car-enthusiast peers.

 

Focus on the content of your counterpoints, and don't rush to misspell them just because you're trying to beat a clock somewhere AND respond.

 

 

 

 

The "deadlines" belong to the EPA and the federal government, not the states. The states are waiting to see what the outcome is - of the federal govt makes them buy back all the cars, there is nothing for the states to do. So far the only deadlines that have passed are the ones for a fix and the ones to complete the buyback process to the customers. This isn't over by a long shot.

 

Great. You still blah blah blah'd your way to NOT be able to prove people are being forced out of their cars. No one has taken their cars, which you stated before. Get your facts straight.

 

No you'd be wrong here. The terms of the settlement is that the "fix" is subject to EPA approval, so no EPA approval - no fix. VW doesn't appear to be trying to even submit one anymore, settling for just buyback. Part of the settlement is that if there was no fix VW would have to buyback 100% of the cars, so those that aren't giving them up....well we are just going to see how that gets handled.

 

That's a lot of talky-talky to not disprove that VW offering a buyback is a partial solution. By your logic, VW is buying back these cars out of the goodness of it's corporate heart, as recompense to it's valued clients OR the hopes that this goodwill gesture will go towards - or soften - an EPA "fix" to be decided.

 

No argument from me here. I'm actually enjoying this back and forth. But if you weren't unhappy before, why bitch about it?

 

I'll give you a mirror, as you're a self-proclaimed troll on this board that provides counterpoints when you feel one is needed. As a liberal, you should appreciate the openness to share an opinion. This is me sharing my thoughts. Still...yup...not unhappy.

[Geeto67]

^^^Inserted attempts at having the last word, when there is no need to respond. Typical Kerry.

And yet you are responding as well...so...?

 

 

Since I've said numerous times it's my opinion, then YES...it is unreasonable to me. I'm certain there are others who share my stance, which is why I fell comfortable sharing it amongst my car-enthusiast peers.

 

yes but you haven't said why it's unreasonable or whom you are actually mad at.

 

- Are you mad that those affected are making a fuss? Why? Is it so unreasonable that they would be mad for being put through this hassle? You seem to be mad at these people because they are making a fuss over it and not other things, well how do you know they aren't making a fuss over other things? is that a reasonable assumption?

 

- Are you mad at the media for covering it over other things like the takata airbags? why? The VW story is way more interesting because of it's complexity. Takata made a bad product and it's fixing it. Their bad product affects only a small part of the population of cars so even if you have a takata airbag you still have to win the worlds shittitiest lottery to be killed by one. VW's problem affects 100% of their small TDI products and pulls in complex issues with the environment, government, and consumer rights. It's interesting, is it so unreasonable for the media to cover interesting things?

 

- Are you mad people on car forums are talking about it? why? that's exactly why car forums exist. is that reasonable?

 

- Are you mad at citizens of the US who feel a foreign entity took advantage of the bureaucracy of the US government to profit and were partially hurt by the companies actions even though they didn't buy the product? how is that unreasonable?

 

So who exactly is being unreasonable?

 

Focus on the content of your counterpoints, and don't rush to misspell them just because you're trying to beat a clock somewhere AND respond.

Sorry, I was on an Ipad dropping a deuce, didn't have time to proof read and spell check.

 

 

That's a lot of talky-talky to not disprove that VW offering a buyback is a partial solution. By your logic, VW is buying back these cars out of the goodness of it's corporate heart, as recompense to it's valued clients OR the hopes that this goodwill gesture will go towards - or soften - an EPA "fix" to be decided.

 

VW offering a buyback isn't a partial solution - it's currently the only solution. VW is not buying these back out of the goodness of it's heart at all and how you extracted that out of anything I said is unreasonable. VW is buying back the cars because they have to. At this point they are sweeping up the cars that people want to give up and are paying a high price to incentivize that behavior. After all the cars voluntarily given up it's going to look to the federal government to help with the cars people don't want to give up....and the federal government has several choices:

 

- they could try and take the cars by mandatory export (which will be interesting if they decide to try because of the 5th amendment to the constitution)

 

- they can void the DOT certification thus making them unusable by their owners

 

- they can make VW fix the cars regardless of the cost

 

- they can do nothing and let time, mileage, and the states take care of it.

 

Another interesting thing also is how is VW going to handle the parts problem. Now that they are considered non-emissions vehicles how can VW honor warranties on them. For now there is a pretty good parts cache, but what's going to happen when the EPA starts preventing VW from importing diesel parts, thus making it impossible for dealers to honor warranties due to parts unavailability. And how does that conflict with existing laws that require VW to honor warranties?

 

For the most part, laws in the automotive arena once they are set don't change much. You make a bad part it's straightforward products liability. Cases in this area that violate multiple areas of law don't come along too often at all and that is what makes this so fascinating. It's worth talking about...and furthermore considering the areas of law this has violated and how blatant and large it was completely justifiable for people to be mad about it.

 

But to you it's unreasonable. Ok. You think it's unreasonable and I think you opinion is short sighted. Glad we had this chat.

[zeitgeist57]

And yet you are responding as well...so...?

 

So...I was making the point that not every response needs a "gotcha" comment. Look! I made the point again! Do you understand now?

 

Here's a hint...a response from THIS comment means you DON'T understand.

 

 

yes but you haven't said why it's unreasonable or whom you are actually mad at.

 

- Are you mad that those affected are making a fuss? Why? Is it so unreasonable that they would be mad for being put through this hassle? You seem to be mad at these people because they are making a fuss over it and not other things, well how do you know they aren't making a fuss over other things? is that a reasonable assumption?

 

- Are you mad at the media for covering it over other things like the takata airbags? why? The VW story is way more interesting because of it's complexity. Takata made a bad product and it's fixing it. Their bad product affects only a small part of the population of cars so even if you have a takata airbag you still have to win the worlds shittitiest lottery to be killed by one. VW's problem affects 100% of their small TDI products and pulls in complex issues with the environment, government, and consumer rights. It's interesting, is it so unreasonable for the media to cover interesting things?

 

- Are you mad people on car forums are talking about it? why? that's exactly why car forums exist. is that reasonable?

 

- Are you mad at citizens of the US who feel a foreign entity took advantage of the bureaucracy of the US government to profit and were partially hurt by the companies actions even though they didn't buy the product? how is that unreasonable?

 

So who exactly is being unreasonable?

 

I am not mad, so all your above points are irrelevant. Why don't you re-read my original post so you can understand - like you should've done the first time - who I feel is being unreasonable.

 

Not every comment needs to be dissected by you, Kerry. When you choose to break apart someone's comment as you do above, not any one - or combination of - your interpretations has to be correct.

 

If anyone is mad, I'm guessing it's someone feverishly commenting to an internet forum post using an iPad whilst on the toilet.

 

Sorry, I was on an Ipad dropping a deuce, didn't have time to proof read and spell check.

 

Work on your time management and task prioritization. "TMI" responses win you points towards your argument.

 

 

VW offering a buyback isn't a partial solution - it's currently the only solution. VW is not buying these back out of the goodness of it's heart at all and how you extracted that out of anything I said is unreasonable. VW is buying back the cars because they have to. At this point they are sweeping up the cars that people want to give up and are paying a high price to incentivize that behavior. After all the cars voluntarily given up it's going to look to the federal government to help with the cars people don't want to give up....and the federal government has several choices:

 

- they could try and take the cars by mandatory export (which will be interesting if they decide to try because of the 5th amendment to the constitution)

 

- they can void the DOT certification thus making them unusable by their owners

 

- they can make VW fix the cars regardless of the cost

 

- they can do nothing and let time, mileage, and the states take care of it.

 

Another interesting thing also is how is VW going to handle the parts problem. Now that they are considered non-emissions vehicles how can VW honor warranties on them. For now there is a pretty good parts cache, but what's going to happen when the EPA starts preventing VW from importing diesel parts, thus making it impossible for dealers to honor warranties due to parts unavailability. And how does that conflict with existing laws that require VW to honor warranties?

 

For the most part, laws in the automotive arena once they are set don't change much. You make a bad part it's straightforward products liability. Cases in this area that violate multiple areas of law don't come along too often at all and that is what makes this so fascinating. It's worth talking about...and furthermore considering the areas of law this has violated and how blatant and large it was completely justifiable for people to be mad about it.

 

But to you it's unreasonable. Ok. You think it's unreasonable and I think you opinion is short sighted. Glad we had this chat.

 

You don't sound glad, and this wasn't a chat so much as you running around metaphorically-speaking, referencing case law and anything else that came to your mind, when all I was suggesting - as you clearly forgot in your unnecessary coverage of every other consumer protection tenant AROUND Dieselgate since there is no "fix" yet - is that people offered a buyout are still expecting more blood when there are greater corporate atrocities abound. It's a larger view I have the luxury of exploring since I'm not directly affected as a consumer of VW's decisions.

[Geeto67]

Ugh. I know this sounds all "Get Off My Lawn"ish...but are people REALLY that spineless that they hear about DieselGate and are that bitter about VW?

 

I'll make this easy for you: who are these "people" you speak of exactly? Who exactly is spineless?

[RyM3rC]

I actually love the environment, just not the wanna-be feel-good bullshit that makes a very fuel-efficient vehicle "wrong" while shitbox china, those asshole volcanoes, or farting cows keep polluting in much greater scales.

 

It's shenanigans

[zeitgeist57]

I'll make this easy for you: who are these "people" you speak of exactly? Who exactly is spineless?

 

Are you still on the shitter? Calm down, finish your business, and you'll feel better.

 

The "People" I'm speaking of could be anyone....not referencing any person or group specifically because I was sharing a thought.

 

Again, Kerry...not every response needs to be dissected by you, and when you pry for more information, I can happily choose not to indulge you.

[Geeto67]

So...I was making the point that not every response needs a "gotcha" comment. Look! I made the point again! Do you understand now?

 

This is CR, where is the fun in that? I understand it fine clay, It's just more fun for me this way.

 

I am not mad, so all your above points are irrelevant. Why don't you re-read my original post so you can understand - like you should've done the first time - who I feel is being unreasonable.

 

see post above.

 

I'm guessing it's someone commenting to an internet forum post using an iPad whilst on the toilet.

Nah...I just read all the magazines already. You realize we are just arguing about who is mad vs who is mad and it's a race to who can care less. Can we just drop this part of it and agree that we are both having a conversation that we are mildly interested in and leave it at that? It's dumb.

 

 

when all I was suggesting - as you clearly forgot in your unnecessary coverage of every other consumer protection tenant AROUND Dieselgate since there is no "fix" yet - is that people offered a buyout are still expecting more blood

(oh that break mid sentence is really gonna piss you off). And there is more blood to be spilled so to speak. This only covered 2.0 liter diesels which were some of the total number of Diesel Cars that VAG made. The stuff ongoing with the 3.0L diesels hasn't even gotten to the proposal stages yet. $$ states have suits against the automaker that is just starting to be heard and probably won't be resolved for another year. A lot of people reported at the beginning of this that it might mark the end of VAG not just in the US but as an automaker on the whole, and it is interesting to watch it unwind in slow motion. To be honest I actually love VW's products despite being an absolute kick in the nards to home service, I would be sad if they had to leave the market place.

 

I don't advocate people stripping their cars before turn in - but I understand why they would be angry enough to do it and don't think it's unreasonable.

 

 

when there are greater corporate atrocities abound. It's a larger view I have the luxury of exploring since I'm not directly affected as a consumer of VW's decisions.

Again, who is to say those people aren't worried about those atrocities as well? I think you are just making an assumption that because the other things are boring and have easier non-complex remedies that people don't care and it's not true.

[zeitgeist57]

Where are you trying to take this conversation?

[Geeto67]

Where are you trying to add to this conversation?

 

My Opinion. Same as you or anyone else.

 

 

Where are you trying to take away from this conversation?

 

A new perspective at looking at the issue that maybe I hadn't considered. So far it's just been the usual shitting on nameless, faceless, abstract people because people are sick of hearing about it in the news.

[zeitgeist57]

A new perspective at looking at the issue that maybe I hadn't considered. So far it's just been the usual shitting on nameless, faceless, abstract people because people are sick of hearing about it in the news.

 

Wow. You chose to not answer my question (normally a good part of having a chat or conversation), but rephrase it into two seperate questions of your choosing and answer at least one of them with a sad, unproductive comment.

 

You sucked all the air out of a conversation that didn't need to happen in the first place, and now you're disappointed enough that you have to converse with yourself.

[Hwilli1647545487]

Wow. You chose to not answer my question (normally a good part of having a chat or conversation), but rephrase it into two seperate questions of your choosing and answer at least one of them with a sad, unproductive comment.

 

 

Welcome to Kerry SOP.

[Geeto67]

Wow. You chose to not answer my question (normally a good part of having a chat or conversation), but rephrase it into two seperate questions of your choosing and answer at least one of them with a sad, unproductive comment.

 

Your question was inaccurate so I took my best guess at what you were asking. Not a mind reader. If you want a better answer, ask a better question. I don't own this forum nor the conversation. I kinda just do what the rest of you do - throw my opinion in and wait for people to respond.

[zeitgeist57]

Your question was inaccurate so I took my best guess at what you were asking. Not a mind reader. If you want a better answer, ask a better question. I don't own this forum nor the conversation. I kinda just do what the rest of you do - throw my opinion in and wait for people to respond.

 

By commenting, you are part of the conversation.

 

If anything, your question is inaccurate when you rehashed my post to read exactly as such: "Where are you trying to take away from this conversation?" Since no one here is a mind-reader, I'll rightfully assume you meant "What are you trying to take away from this conversation?" Even corrected, that question you posed to yourself - for you to answer - is something I don't care to explore.

 

Don't offer some soft backpedal like "kinda going along with the crowd". Admit that you want an engaged dialogue and you're sad that it doesn't go the way you want.

[zeitgeist57]

Welcome to Kerry SOP.

 

Be Kerry: offer verbose response dissecting someone else's comments, be critical of their position, get upset when people don't engage.

[Geeto67]

By commenting, you are part of the conversation.

 

If anything, your question is inaccurate when you rehashed my post to read exactly as such: "Where are you trying to take away from this conversation?" Since no one here is a mind-reader, I'll rightfully assume you meant "What are you trying to take away from this conversation?" Even corrected, that question you posed to yourself - for you to answer - is something I don't care to explore.

 

Don't offer some soft backpedal like "kinda going along with the crowd". Admit that you want an engaged dialogue and you're sad that it doesn't go the way you want.

 

I didn't have an agenda...just responded to what someone else was posting. Par for any forum. It's entertainment, I don't log on here wringing my hands evil-ly saying "where can I make CR go off the rails today", I just sorta read what's written, toss my response out there, and wait for a reply. It's an adventure!!!!

 

Be Kerry: offer verbose response dissecting someone else's comments, be critical of their position, get upset when people don't engage.

If you are going to put your opinion on the internet you should at lease be prepared to defend it.

[10phone2]

There is no point in the lengthy debate. It's always Putin's fault.

[zeitgeist57]

If you are going to put your opinion on the internet you should at lease [least???] be prepared to defend it.

 

I defended my opinion. It's my choice - and everyone elses - to not be pulled into an unnecessarily-long dialogue online with you, giving credibility to every little comment you make.

 

KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. You are the only one saddened by setting such high standards for casual conversation on an internet forum, then laments when responses fail to deliver.