1985 Porsche 944 V8

[AudiOn19s]

I don't claim to know 911s very well, but I simply do not accept this statement.

 

I'm not aware of a car where a LSD wouldn't make it better. Not necessarily faster, but more fun?

 

I'm listening...

 

you hit it on the head...granted both of my 911's have had factory LSD but while it may make the care more fun, it doesn't really make it any faster....hence my comment it's not necessarily needed.

 

They're just not traction limited given power figures and placement of weight. I've driven plenty 996 and 997 cars at the track that didn't have LSD and there's still no issue putting down the power.

 

996 GT3's were notorious for not having enough preload from the factory in the LSD unit and in a street car it'll be worn out within 20-30k miles. When I pulled mine to rebuild it the thing had less than 7 lbs of preload on the unit making it basically useless. I did a 1K rebuild with the best of the best and my lap times changed....NONE. It felt better under braking and felt a little different when it would lock under power but the net result was zero lap time change.

[Aaron]

you hit it on the head...granted both of my 911's have had factory LSD but while it may make the care more fun, it doesn't really make it any faster....hence my comment it's not necessarily needed.

 

They're just not traction limited given power figures and placement of weight. I've driven plenty 996 and 997 cars at the track that didn't have LSD and there's still no issue putting down the power.

 

996 GT3's were notorious for not having enough preload from the factory in the LSD unit and in a street car it'll be worn out within 20-30k miles. When I pulled mine to rebuild it the thing had less than 7 lbs of preload on the unit making it basically useless. I did a 1K rebuild with the best of the best and my lap times changed....NONE. It felt better under braking and felt a little different when it would lock under power but the net result was zero lap time change.

 

Yep, that makes perfect sense and if that is your primary concern/focus then I agree. Thanks for the explanation!

 

While I certainly have enjoyed easing into track driving and lap times (Konis ordered and sway bars in garage), I've also seen the light of sliding a car around at reasonable speeds. Great fun, and something that makes a good LSD mandatory.

[zeitgeist57]

Lol. My 4-cyl BMW has an LSD rearend.

 

Pat, congrats on the project! V8 944’s are right up there with V8 E36’s

Looking forward to updates!

[Rally Pat]

Thanks everyone!

 

I firmly believe in “one thing at a time”, so we’ll start tearing in to this as soon as the Legacy is sold. Waiting on that to come back from getting detailed.

[hpfiend]

Before you get too far in- hit up renegade hybrids for a set of their headers- from someone that put a 4.3 vortec CPI v6 in a 924 and built headers from scratch, let me tell you, they are worth every penny. Also apparently the easy ticket is to put the engine in from the bottom. The flip

Up headlight mechanism, and hood latch with mounted expansion tank make it very difficult to go in from

The top.

 

Also, lastly if it were me again I would put a ford 2.3 turbo or try to convert a 4g63t to longitudinal. Good luck!!

 

 

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[Rally Pat]

I’m sure the headers that come in the TPC kit will be just fine. I would rather not give any money to Overpiced Hybrids.

[hpfiend]

Oh sorry, did not read carefully enough to see you had a kit picked out- wasn't familiar with TPC. We bought ours from the original RH that went out of business for incompetence

 

 

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[zeitgeist57]

BTW, those phone dial wheels are fucking perfect. :thumbup:

[Geeto67]

Before you get too far in- hit up renegade hybrids for a set of their headers- from someone that put a 4.3 vortec CPI v6 in a 924 and built headers from scratch, let me tell you, they are worth every penny. Also apparently the easy ticket is to put the engine in from the bottom. The flip

Up headlight mechanism, and hood latch with mounted expansion tank make it very difficult to go in from

The top.

 

Also, lastly if it were me again I would put a ford 2.3 turbo or try to convert a 4g63t to longitudinal. Good luck!!

 

 

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I’m curious, how did the 924 perform with the 4.3 in it? Was it a better balanced rocket? Or did you miss the 2 cyl a 350 would have given you?

 

What about a ford 289/302? Has that been considered? I know everyone wants to LS swap these days for moar power but plenty of Fox mustangs made hp for decades with the 302/5.0 and its probably 1/3 the cost. I remember when clay was talking about ruining his e36 that a quick search on CL turned up 5.0s for like $300 complete.

[hpfiend]

It was a disaster. It had double the horsepower of the 95 hp Audi engine it came with but with the added torque and no lsd on 185mm tires it would just smoke the one wheel. The hydraulic Tilton throwout bearing setup was like a switch so near impossible to be smooth with, all of the heat from the headers destroyed a gm high torque starter when they were new and expensive in under 50 miles, and the first RH owners suggestion of using a geo metro master cylinder brake booster combo would not fit and we tried to use a 911 non power setup which made it near impossible to stop. I will say that this was years ago when I was just a kid with my dad, the Internet was just starting, and fuel injection know how was very limited. We paid over 1000 for the v6 and almost as much for a harness and chip to get it running without the automatic transmission. We never ran it long enough to see how it would handle but I am sure worse than before as the iron v6 was the same weight if not heavier than the Audi engine and it was an understeering pig before. My dad sold a 1967 corvette convertible to buy this car new. To say he was disappointed would be an extreme understatement. He did make a lot of friends in the Porsche club and had a lot of fun back in the 70s.

 

This is why I personally would swap a 951 engine in or stick with a proven 4 cylinder combo now as the engine bay on the 924 at least is extremely tight and the lower torque and 951 transaxles becoming rarer. The 4.3 is a 90 degree v6 so it is almost exactly the same size as a 350 but 4.4 inches shorter. They did not have hydroboost brake setups swaps as proven as they are now or I didn't know about them. A 60 degree six might be neat.

 

The problem with the very affordable and awesome 5.0 HO is that the front sump oil pan is difficult to fit with the crossmember/sway bar but I believe people have done it now.

 

When it appeared the new owners of RH had figured a few things out many years later and people were putting ls engines in I was amazed and impressed. Especially when they figured out to use BMW and 911 brakes as it was looking like a complete package with the 951 transaxle. The issue was the total cost of conversion when I looked into it was in the 25k range And non zo6 c5s were almost there with the same layout, and more than 15 years of engineering progress in the rest of the car.

 

Take this with a grain of salt OP. I was 14 and had nowhere near the knowledge I do now and email was state of the art. There were only two 924/44 swaps in the country when we did ours and neither was fuel injected. The one guy that was doing it with us scrapped the 3.8 Chevy v6 he figured out how to put in for a Buick grand national engine.

 

 

The best thing about that project is the time I spent with my dad and I learned to oxy acetylene weld the headers good enough to get it done which has come in handy over the years.

 

This reminds me I need to update my gremlin build l had clay unlock.

 

 

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[Rally Pat]

I may ask this info in a separate thread, but wanted to post here first.

 

Is there a reliable resource for finding out which vehicles came with what engines so I can easily look for aluminum block engines quicker? I am tempted to just find the first beat dick work truck I see on craigslist.

 

Second, does anyone have a hookup on auction cars and/or wrecked cars?

[Rally Pat]

Take this with a grain of salt OP.

 

I am. I've chosen what I've chosen because by now to say these swaps have had all the kinks worked out is an understatement. There are stories left and right of people who have done the whole swap start to finish in a weekend.

[Geeto67]

Is there a reliable resource for finding out which vehicles came with what engines so I can easily look for aluminum block engines quicker? I am tempted to just find the first beat dick work truck I see on craigslist.

 

here is a picker's guide from super chevy:

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1512-the-ultimate-pickers-guide-to-ls-engines/

 

I don't think there is a singular guide to vehicles because it was an option on so many - for example the Sliverado came with a 5.3 iron block, but if you optioned it with the 5.3 HO it came with an aluminum block. Some Z71 package trucks got them and some didn't as well, and some years, regardless of options if you got 4x4 I believe you got the alloy block.

 

The easier way to do it is by the option tag sticker on the vehicle. the engine code for a 5.3 with an aluminum block is LM4 and L33 (different engines), so look for that on the vehicle tag.

 

The wiki article has a partial listing of what applications came with some codes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LS_based_GM_small-block_engine

[Cordell]

The majority of trucks got iron blocks, it wasn't until the use of active fuel management that a lot of the half tons got an aluminum block. Still many had iron, unfortunately it just isn't very simple unless you are physically looking at it or using RPO codes (and there are a lot of RPOs). Only engines that came out of Camaros, Corvettes, GTOs, SSRs, were guaranteed to be aluminum.

[hpfiend]

Best of luck to you man and I would love to take a look at it when you are done!

 

I think the cheapest aluminum setup is the 98-02 f-bodies followed by the LS2 in Pontiac G8 and SAAB 9-7x then the 05-07 corvettes. The 97-04 vette ls1 is also a good one but not many available when I looked.

 

I bought a salvage title Silverado with the 6.0 and parted the rest out for my gremlin engine but it has an iron block.

 

 

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[Cordell]

Best of luck to you man and I would love to take a look at it when you are done!

 

I think the cheapest aluminum setup is the 98-02 f-bodies followed by the LS2 in Pontiac G8 and SAAB 9-7x then the 05-07 corvettes. The 97-04 vette ls1 is also a good one but not many available when I looked.

 

I bought a salvage title Silverado with the 6.0 and parted the rest out for my gremlin engine but it has an iron block.

 

 

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I really don't think your typical automotive recycler is getting Corvettes, Camaros, and GTOs. I see those engines all the time from places like Cleveland Power and Performance, or Hawks Motorsports, because they specialize in those cars, so I'm sure they buy all that they can get their hands on.

 

BTW, I assume you meant LS2 GTO, the G8 GT only got the 6.0 L76 (has AFM) and the G8 GXP got an LS3. ....and this is why identifying these engines is such a PITA.

[Rally Pat]

Still been looking around for different things. The local market for truck motors is all over the place. You have the usual "I NO WUT I HAV" people, and there are other things to consider like having to buy the intake and what not for a LSX for hood clearance which based on the local prices I have seen are literally as much as the engine.

 

LT1's on the other hand, are dirt dirt dirt cheap and you don't need to change anything to make it clear the hood.

 

I am not saying I am going to buy one or not, but what are the downsides to an LT1 aside from Optispark, which the internet tells me isn't a problem anymore especially if you use a converter box to use LS ignition components?

[zeitgeist57]

LT1's on the other hand, are dirt dirt dirt cheap and you don't need to change anything to make it clear the hood.

 

I am not saying I am going to buy one or not, but what are the downsides to an LT1 aside from Optispark, which the internet tells me isn't a problem anymore especially if you use a converter box to use LS ignition components?

 

<<< C4 Corvette owner, converted OptiSpark to a DelTeq Northstar-based coil system. The problem with LT1's from this point forward to eternity is that the aftermarket support isn't there (specialized parts from SBC and LSx, very expensive) so for the HP or reliability/ease-of-maintenance, an LSx will remain a superior choice.

 

Price out a good longblock refresh on an LT1 (waterpump, new serpentine belt/tensioners or even a custom accessory system for the 944, OptSpark or ignition conversion system, new gaskets, etc) and then see if an LSx isn't still a better option.

 

The ONLY thing in my mind that makes an LT1 somewhat attractive from a swap standpoint is if you never plan on modding it for power. 300hp is what you can reliably expect, whereas an LSx is cheaper/easier to tweak to 350hp+.

[wagner]

If you decide to go LT1 let me know. I have up at my dad's house a block, crank, rods, pistons and heads I think that I'll sell you.

 

That being said, I would go with an LSX setup TRUST ME. I messed around with the LT1 stuff and the LS based is just so much better from an aftermarket standpoint and in general.

 

You can find so much LS based stuff anymore and it's beyond easy to make 450 hp with just some basic stuff and it will run good on cheap gas.

 

This is you're show, but there's a reason I have an LSX F-body in my garage and the LT based car got sold.

[cdk 4219]

Still been looking around for different things. The local market for truck motors is all over the place. You have the usual "I NO WUT I HAV" people, and there are other things to consider like having to buy the intake and what not for a LSX for hood clearance which based on the local prices I have seen are literally as much as the engine.

 

LT1's on the other hand, are dirt dirt dirt cheap and you don't need to change anything to make it clear the hood.

 

I am not saying I am going to buy one or not, but what are the downsides to an LT1 aside from Optispark, which the internet tells me isn't a problem anymore especially if you use a converter box to use LS ignition components?

 

Lt1 is 60 plus year old technology, ls1 while still a dinosaur at 20 plus year old technology, is light years ahead. Flathead vs ohv, I would rather have a stock 4.8 Liz than a heads cam lt1

[Cordell]

I'd rather put aftermarket fuel injection on an old small block the use an LT1. LT1s are heavier, computer tech is old, aftermarket isn't fantastic, and over coming some of these shortcomings is costly.

 

As for GM performance if not LS, then old school small block. Old school stuff is cheap and there is so much aftermarket you can buy stuff everywhere. LS stuff is awesome for many reasons, namely for the fact that it has as much performance from the factory as this old stuff that has been modded mildly.

[Rally Pat]

Fair points all around.

 

Anyone got an LS style intake setup that won’t cost me 70 bajillion doll hairs ? Maybe even a trade or two?

[99StockGT]

I'd rather put aftermarket fuel injection on an old small block the use an LT1. LT1s are heavier, computer tech is old, aftermarket isn't fantastic, and over coming some of these shortcomings is costly.

 

As for GM performance if not LS, then old school small block. Old school stuff is cheap and there is so much aftermarket you can buy stuff everywhere. LS stuff is awesome for many reasons, namely for the fact that it has as much performance from the factory as this old stuff that has been modded mildly.

 

Three cheers for THIS comment! Either build an old school 383 stroker and toss a FI Tech Fuel Injection system on it or go LS, not worth the time money and energy for what you'll get out of the LT.

[Geeto67]

Three cheers for THIS comment! Either build an old school 383 stroker and toss a FI Tech Fuel Injection system on it or go LS, not worth the time money and energy for what you'll get out of the LT.

 

eh...I dunno.

 

First off, if you aren't looking for more than 300-330hp out of the engine, and don't want to spend any money making it go faster, I think the LT1 is cheaper out of the box. Think about it - pulled from a vette it's a reverse flow, alloy headed, roller cammed, engine that will clear most low hood heights. Sure you can pull 400+ hp out of an old school 350 or an LS, but you have to spend for heads, and a cam, and an intake, and all these other things to make it work and that's a lot of money. If I was going to run a carb, then all day every day take the old school SBC because there is $1000 I don't need on an FI system - but I feel like if hood clearance is an issue, and FI is preferred, and you don't need more than 330hp, it's hard to beat a sub $1000 complete soup to nuts LT1.

 

From my perspective, the advantage of the 944 is the light weight of the platform as compared to something like a 3rd gen camaro, so if you don't want to make a 400+hp drag car, how much hp do you really need? That being said, the LT1 has a pretty big weight penalty still being an iron block and all.

 

my father always said: "Do it right and do it once" so if you want to turn it up later on or preserve some semblance of the car's balance a 5.3 alloy block LS engine makes more sense all day every day.

[hpfiend]

I also support the lt1 as a lot of bang for the buck- it is the best second gen small block and factory aluminum heads are great compared to anything but a set of afr or darts which will cost more than the entire engine compared to a set of generation one double hump heads or generation two vortec setup

 

Anything more than 400 hp and associated v8 torque will shred that Porsche drivetrain anyhow. A GM HOT cam, tune, headers, and 1.6 rockers would put a 3700 lb fbody in the 12s back in the day. Port a set of stock heads and about guaranteed IIRC. One guy with a wilder cam, tb, and the rest above and speed density got 12.0 at 120 but he was a legend, swore it was a blueprinted 350 not a 383.

 

Also you can get around VATS (resistor) and tune a lot cheaper yourself with LT1edit vs having to buy hptuners or pay a tuner just to get it to start outside of the vehicle it came in.

 

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