10phone2 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 kerry your assuming his contacts liked working at gm so they can have a beer at lunch and operate equipment after? really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Sweet Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 This is all 100% because of the Unions. I know people that have "retired" by 40 just due to being drastically over paid for a cake job. This is all well and good for those who have it. For the people outside looking in, and the non-union people they have to deal with it’s pretty lame. Ultimately I don’t think either side is sustainable. I feel it’s likely going to be GM getting around the UAW by manufacturing elsewhere. Meanwhile nothing is going to be very good in the short term. I agree, which is why I don't understand how GM is supposedly treating their employees like shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 kerry your assuming his contacts liked working at gm so they can have a beer at lunch and operate equipment after? really? No I am illustrating a point that at one point GM was so lax about employee management that it probably seemed like a sweet gig, when in reality it was hurting the company overall. It's that lax management that led to the agreement with Toyota and the NUMMI plant that was supposed to be the change in GM. Toyota proved that if you ditched GM management culture the plant went from a drug and booze addled production facility with the highest defective vehicle rate to a lean and efficient facility with the lowest defective rate. And then GM old culture stepped in and squashed it. here read this: it details it nicely: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125229157 yes the union contract there frustrated a lot, but GM management made that deal, and GM management had to have done something pretty bad to give UAW enough leverage to push for that deal. And even when you read about it, the Toyota approach really would not have been affected by the union contract for that plant. Even today, there are no criminal laws against drinking on the job, that's a safety item the union and the company have agreed to and become common practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Sweet Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 GMLOL. Sounds like they screwed future generations. My grandpa didn't say that, my wife's uncle said it and he's only been retired for a couple years. So either GM is terrible because they treat their employees like shit, or they are terrible because they overpay their employees? Which is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 My grandpa didn't say that, my wife's uncle said it and he's only been retired for a couple years. So either GM is terrible because they treat their employees like shit, or they are terrible because they overpay their employees? Which is it? Yes My dealings with unions of any kind have never been positive to put it nicely. I had one of their reps threaten me if I didn't protect one of their turd members that was causing issues at a location I worked at. As a manager dealing with them was truly awful. If you said or did anything they didn't like, you were getting a phone call/vist/e-mail from the union rep. They have their place to a point, however, in my own personal experiences I've never seen them do anything positive towards the final product of work. They are REALLY good at collecting money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTQ B4U Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 Sounds to me like the entire company needs a re-structure and branding about how it is run. There's no need for a union when run correctly and thus both sides need to be removed and built over again. Until that happens they are going to continue to have problems on both sides, hurt their own company and not benefit their customers. In the mean time people will continue to move to other products and leave the loyalty GM should have on the ground. Time to rip off band aids and stop putting lipstick on the pigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10phone2 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 kerry thanks for clarifying with a good response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltboostin Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 If you think anyone, I mean ANYONE should be paid 100K+bennies (great bennies too) to bolt on water pumps for 8 hours a day, you are part of the problem. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 If you think anyone, I mean ANYONE should be paid 100K+bennies (great bennies too) to bolt on water pumps for 8 hours a day, you are part of the problem. Period. Do any GM Assembly Line workers make 6 figures? I highly doubt that. so do they (that last link is really interesting): https://www.indeed.com/cmp/General-Motors/salaries?job_category=manufacturing https://www.careerbliss.com/gmc/salaries/assembly-line-worker/ https://www.payscale.com/career-news/2008/12/are-ford-workers-really-paid-73-an-hour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Sweet Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 If you think anyone, I mean ANYONE should be paid 100K+bennies (great bennies too) to bolt on water pumps for 8 hours a day, you are part of the problem. Period. Yeah, these workers are already getting compensated really well, and they want more? That's a problem. But but but GM abuses their employees Scott said it best...... It sounds like the union wants an awful lot. They already get great pay, and great benefits, and these people think they deserve so much more. Most of them simply bolt cars together. People wonder why these companies want to build shit outside of the US. This type of union greed will either bankrupt GM or cause them to keep moving manufacturing outside of the United States and Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted September 24, 2019 Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 Yeah, these workers are already getting compensated really well, and they want more? That's a problem. But but but GM abuses their employees Scott said it best...... no GM's a shitty company because they focus on short term and paying the top first which creates long term instability when the market changes. When the employees complain, they throw them concessions to shut them up. This is not sustainable long term and it hurts the employees most because they are most affected by sweeping layoffs and changes in market and even is partially responsible for the bankruptcy and bailout. Yeah they feel like it's a great place to work if they work in a plant that doesn't close, or experience a reduction in force, or isn't able to pivot because of market changes. I wonder if all the people who were laid off at the lordstown plant still feel positive about GM. Yes compared to a lot of jobs they make good money and benefits, but compared to the rest of the market they are slightly worse on pay and slightly better on benefits, and they have to fight with GM just to get that. so they just do alright but it's a much harder fight to do alright. If you are a GM line worker you are only pulling down about $18K a year more than the federal poverty line, so I wouldn't say you are out buying brand new cars and eating in restaurants every week. GM's employees make market salary and benefits, but their upper management make as much as 10 times more than their foreign counterparts. That's money that could be used to shore up the company and give the employees more stability. A lot of what the striking employees are asking for are things others get in the market already, so yes they feel they deserve it because it's a market adjustment. The big issue is the two tiered compensation system which served it's purpose and is no longer necessary for GM to be competitive. A lot of these are issues tied to soundness and stability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordell Posted September 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2019 Ok, let’s pose a hypothetical idea. Let’s say the UAW and GM parted ways and GM had to continue business as a non-union manufacturer. How long do you think it would take for GM to end up providing good pay and benefits to their employees (I mean assembly line employees) just so that they were competitive with similar jobs at other companies? I mean people can go to Honda and make a decent living, why would GM be able to stay fully staffed with people who can get the job done unless they paid a good wage? I bet people would have a good job with decent pay and benefits, and people would be more inclined to do a good job without their union safety net. So.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Nice Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 So either GM is terrible because they treat their employees like shit, or they are terrible because they overpay their employees? Which is it? I'mma just go with "GM is terrible" and stop there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeesammy Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 Scott - I'm starting to hear the same thing with GM dealers. I believe in the concept of unions, but no corporation is going to be able to legitimately negotiate with so much UAW internal corruption going on. It's a hot mess that won't be solved with this strike. It's a mess. You seriously think big corps dont have corruption going on as much if not more? Laughs in non-banker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unfunnyryan Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 You seriously think big corps dont have corruption going on as much if not more? Laughs in non-banker It's not like banks got big bailouts for their operational failures like the wretched auto industry... ... ... ... ...this is where the sarcasm goes ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiek2000 Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 Its just as much a political stunt as an actual union strike. Look at all these democrats chiming in with their 2 cents. Don't reply to me geeto, I don't give a fuck what you think and have skipped all your posts up until this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gergwheel1647545492 Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 Don't reply to me geeto, I don't give a fuck what you think and have skipped all your posts up until this one. :lolguy: YES!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 Ok, let’s pose a hypothetical idea. Let’s say the UAW and GM parted ways and GM had to continue business as a non-union manufacturer. How long do you think it would take for GM to end up providing good pay and benefits to their employees (I mean assembly line employees) just so that they were competitive with similar jobs at other companies? I mean people can go to Honda and make a decent living, why would GM be able to stay fully staffed with people who can get the job done unless they paid a good wage? I bet people would have a good job with decent pay and benefits, and people would be more inclined to do a good job without their union safety net. So.... If the UAW and The big three parted ways, I don't think any of the US automakers would loose any sleep over having the lowest paid employees in the industry. I thi it would take 2-5 years to do and they would probably start with the benefits. Part of this current strike is rooted in GM wanting to cut the cost of health care and make the employees carry a larger deductible. But I do believe GM would walk the employee compensation down in the traditional way it usually does: through a combination of scaring the workforce that their job might move overseas and Patroitic propaganda that working for an American car company is somehow better than working for a foreign car company in the US. The other effect I think it would have is you would see the compensation go down at those other non union shops as well. Even if your shop isn't Union, it has to match or better Union wages to keep a Union from forming. Without him that market pressure the other companies would readjust after they got their fill poaching good employees from the other automakers. But I also think that if the UAW exited the landscape, a new Union would form immediately. Why? Because there is a need for it. Unions are the advocate of the workers, any time you have a large company with leverage over a large semi-skilled workforce that workforce needs an advocate. Unions arose out of a need and as long as there are times where the interests of the company and the interests of the workers are at odds, there will always be a need for someone to speak for the workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeto67 Posted September 25, 2019 Report Share Posted September 25, 2019 Its just as much a political stunt as an actual union strike. Look at all these democrats chiming in with their 2 cents. Don't reply to me geeto, I don't give a fuck what you think and have skipped all your posts up until this one. First of all it is pretty laughable to think this conversation is all about you enough that you can just throw your opinion into the public and not have it challenged by someone. I mean, that's like Internet 101 and you are failing at it. Trying to control the conversation on a forum is as useless and futile as trying to make a giraffe fly. You are free to skip whatever content you want, just as I am free to respond to whatever I want, no skin off my nose. Ain't freedom great! Politicians are by their nature opportunist, so If there is something that speaks to a large demographic in their base, and gets a lot of free publicity then naturally they are going to seize the moment. I don't think the Democratic Party or any individual candidate has the clout to call up the UAW and say "hey, can you guys strike it would really help us out". Also if one did by some miracle, I don't think that could be kept a secret because there are just too many people involved. While the UAW does recognize that they do benefit from a democratic administration, if it was organized specifically to boost democratic support, they would have done it closer to the election. I do think they are also opportunistic when it comes to publicity, and if a bunch of politicians want to boost the visibility of their cause they won't turn them away, but I really don't think politics play all that much in when the union decides to strike. These things are on a calendar, and in this case the contract was up for negotiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 My experience with how unions operate at GM, I was sent to GM Powertrain in Defiance to install and calibrate a machine they had moved. I needed the machine plugged into a 110v wall outlet in order to turn the machine on. I was not allowed to plug in the machine because of union rules. My company scheduled me 2 weeks out, they knew I was coming for 2 weeks. After 3 hours, someone finally came by and plugged the machine in for me. I asked what would happen had I plugged in the machine myself. I was told that if I did, the electrician could file a grievance against me (which would have been a certainty), and I would be walked out for the remainder of the day. The electrician would get paid their regular 8 hour shift, plus 8 more hours for the "work I was taking from them", all for plugging in a machine to a standard outlet. Yeah, unions can go fuck themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robochan Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 Lose sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagner Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 My experience with how unions operate at GM, I was sent to GM Powertrain in Defiance to install and calibrate a machine they had moved. I needed the machine plugged into a 110v wall outlet in order to turn the machine on. I was not allowed to plug in the machine because of union rules. My company scheduled me 2 weeks out, they knew I was coming for 2 weeks. After 3 hours, someone finally came by and plugged the machine in for me. I asked what would happen had I plugged in the machine myself. I was told that if I did, the electrician could file a grievance against me (which would have been a certainty), and I would be walked out for the remainder of the day. The electrician would get paid their regular 8 hour shift, plus 8 more hours for the "work I was taking from them", all for plugging in a machine to a standard outlet. Yeah, unions can go fuck themselves. We have the exact same issue at PRI each year with our booth. We get set up but can't plug anything in and have to sit there for hours waiting. If you have stuff that needs loaded in via forklift you're totally fucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussiek2000 Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 At least GM cut 22 pages of warranty operations for us, so they can afford to pay these union guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coaster Posted October 1, 2019 Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 We have the exact same issue at PRI each year with our booth. We get set up but can't plug anything in and have to sit there for hours waiting. If you have stuff that needs loaded in via forklift you're totally fucked. I had a friend that started a design job at a union. He walked into his office on the first day and his computer was sitting there not hooked up. So he started to put it together, someone let him know he can't do that. He sat there for 3 weeks waiting on someone to plug his computer in. Efficiency FTW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordell Posted October 1, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2019 At least GM cut 22 pages of warranty operations for us, so they can afford to pay these union guys. Yeah saw that yesterday. No wonder nobody wants to fix cars anymore, dumbasses making them earn more money and I have to make less on their goddamn warranty repairs. Has not been a good time being a GM Tech lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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